DIY alignment on these rigs?

[Mudeprived]

I have always owned jeeps and did my own alignment since it was very easily done with a tape measure, duct tape, and a marker. I usually did it every year after winter.
Is it possible to do it with these rigs to save some money?

 

[mtbtim]

With a tape measure, you could get the toe and camber pretty close. I just don't know how you'd measure for caster. The camber and caster is adjusted with the LCA cams.

But, your accuracy isn't going to be as good as compared to a alignment shop with a special rack and lasers to dial it in perfectly. I prefer to do my own automotive work but this is one of those things like wheel balancing that you just have to pay for to get right.

That's my two cents on this topic.

 

[Mudeprived]

With a tape measure, you could get the toe and camber pretty close. I just don't know how you'd measure for caster. The camber and caster is adjusted with the LCA cams.

But, your accuracy isn't going to be as good as compared to a alignment shop with a special rack and lasers to dial it in perfectly. I prefer to do my own automotive work but this is one of those things like wheel balancing that you just have to pay for to get right.

That's my two cents on this topic.

Do they even adjust the caster? I have watched a few alignments so far and they just do the toe and are done with it. The print out shows everything within specs.

 

[thecole1098]

Do they even adjust the caster? I have watched a few alignments so far and they just do the toe and are done with it. The print out shows everything within specs.

Well, at the dealer where I work, if a car doesn't require camber/caster to be adjusted because it's already within spec we only touch toe and go. Why mess with something if it's not needed? We're paid flag...

 

[IBallEngineer]

Well, at the dealer where I work, if a car doesn't require camber/caster to be adjusted because it's already within spec we only touch toe and go. Why mess with something if it's not needed? We're paid flag...

Just curious, please don't think I'm torching you here, but I really do want to know this. Do you drive the car prior to checking alignment? Just so you know, I am an auto shop teacher, I owned a body and frame repair shop for 14 years, and I sold alignment equipment for 5 years. I am sure like so many techs you were taught to set things to green and go. But who cares if you are a little out of spec if the car drives correctly. I've seen so many alignment techs say, everything is in the green and it still pulls, so there must be something wrong with your machine.
I agree that if an angle doesn't need adjusting, you shouldn't. But set the toe an go is the root of many driver's problems. Truth is many cars don't offer you the ability to adjust Camber, much less Caster. But it boggles my mind how many techs don't drive the car first.

 

[thecole1098]

Just curious, please don't think I'm torching you here, but I really do want to know this. Do you drive the car prior to checking alignment? Just so you know, I am an auto shop teacher, I owned a body and frame repair shop for 14 years, and I sold alignment equipment for 5 years. I am sure like so many techs you were taught to set things to green and go. But who cares if you are a little out of spec if the car drives correctly. I've seen so many alignment techs say, everything is in the green and it still pulls, so there must be something wrong with your machine.
I agree that if an angle doesn't need adjusting, you shouldn't. But set the toe an go is the root of many driver's problems. Truth is many cars don't offer you the ability to adjust Camber, much less Caster. But it boggles my mind how many techs don't drive the car first.

That's a fair question to ask. I do drive the vehicle first to verify the complaint (pulling or steering wheel off-center) as it takes different adjustments to fix each of those. As you know, pulling is caused by incorrectly set camber/caster or too much of a cross split between them and toe generally affects the position of the steering wheel and causes vibrations at highway speeds. It's also pretty obvious to tell when simply looking at the tires during a multi-point inspection if it needs an alignment.

And when possible, I try to always compensate caster for road crown over camber as caster does not cause tire wear. However, most of our FWD vehicles don't even have a cross caster specification, but when we do split it we keep it under half a degree difference with drivers side being less positive.

Also, it should be noted that a pull issue is not always caused by the alignment being off. Sometimes it is simply the tire and typically we will first swap tires side to side then drive. If it still pulls, then we will put it on the rack. All of this after checking tire pressure, of course.

 

[IBallEngineer]

With a tape measure, you could get the toe and camber pretty close. I just don't know how you'd measure for caster. The camber and caster is adjusted with the LCA cams.

But, your accuracy isn't going to be as good as compared to a alignment shop with a special rack and lasers to dial it in perfectly. I prefer to do my own automotive work but this is one of those things like wheel balancing that you just have to pay for to get right.

That's my two cents on this topic.

Tim, I know a lot of people look up to you and all you have done for this list, rightfully so, I also appreciate that you help those less talented get things done. But I have to correct you on this one little issue because it always bothers me, ( I know it's my problem), but I don't like misinformation to be spread.

There are no commercially viable car alignment systems being sold today that use lasers. Beeline uses a laser on their heavy truck aligner to establish a geometric center line, car aligners don't align that way, they are thrust angle aligners. BUT I digress! Modern state of the art aligners are "Imaging Aligners". This means they use cameras to track the targets attached to the wheels or tires of a car to perform the rolling compensation. Based on the size, ellipse, and angle of the shapes on the targets the computer figures out how far away everything is, and all the relative angles. The red blinking lights you see on the Hunter™ branded machines are actually just LED's flashing for the benefit of the camera. On the John Bean™ branded machines the LEDs are infrared, so you can't see them, but they are doing the same strobe function. Now that the original 1996 Patent owned by Snap-on has expired, there are a few off shore companies making copies of what the two main players have been doing since 1993. :couch2:
As you were!

 

[IBallEngineer]

That's a fair question to ask. I do drive the vehicle first to verify the complaint (pulling or steering wheel off-center) as it takes different adjustments to fix each of those. As you know, pulling is caused by incorrectly set camber/caster or too much of a cross split between them and toe generally affects the position of the steering wheel and causes vibrations at highway speeds. It's also pretty obvious to tell when simply looking at the tires during a multi-point inspection if it needs an alignment.

And when possible, I try to always compensate caster for road crown over camber as caster does not cause tire wear. However, most of our FWD vehicles don't even have a cross caster specification, but when we do split it we keep it under half a degree difference with drivers side being less positive.

Also, it should be noted that a pull issue is not always caused by the alignment being off. Sometimes it is simply the tire and typically we will first swap tires side to side then drive. If it still pulls, then we will put it on the rack. All of this after checking tire pressure, of course.

Well the fact you drop the left side caster tells me you are not a toe and go bum! :grouphug: It is also amazing how many techs don't take radial pull in to account. However I tell my students, or customers, don't just swap sides on the tires without checking things out. Generally if the car pulls at low speeds, it is tires, but higher speeds can be either one. And Steering wheel center is individual toe, not total toe. Total toe is a tire wearing monster, but not necessarily involved in centering the wheel. An example would be if both sides had extreme positive or negative toe, but equally. The steering would be centered, but it would kill the tires.

Nice to meet you too!

:couch2:

 

[thecole1098]

Well the fact you drop the left side caster tells me you are not a toe and go bum! :grouphug: It is also amazing how many techs don't take radial pull in to account. However I tell my students, or customers, don't just swap sides on the tires without checking things out. Generally if the car pulls at low speeds, it is tires, but higher speeds can be either one. And Steering wheel center is individual toe, not total toe. Total toe is a tire wearing monster, but not necessarily involved in centering the wheel. An example would be if both sides had extreme positive or negative toe, but equally. The steering would be centered, but it would kill the tires.

Nice to meet you too!

:couch2:

That's a good point about toe. This is why I always do a caster sweep after setting camber and caster as they affect toe in a huge way. If one was to simply set toe without doing another caster sweep, it would show good on the machine but it would obviously not perform good. I just witnessed this with a tech today, actually.

 

[mtbtim]

Tim, I know a lot of people look up to you and all you have done for this list, rightfully so, I also appreciate that you help those less talented get things done. But I have to correct you on this one little issue because it always bothers me, ( I know it's my problem), but I don't like misinformation to be spread.

There are no commercially viable car alignment systems being sold today that use lasers. Beeline uses a laser on their heavy truck aligner to establish a geometric center line, car aligners don't align that way, they are thrust angle aligners. BUT I digress! Modern state of the art aligners are "Imaging Aligners". This means they use cameras to track the targets attached to the wheels or tires of a car to perform the rolling compensation. Based on the size, ellipse, and angle of the shapes on the targets the computer figures out how far away everything is, and all the relative angles. The red blinking lights you see on the Hunter™ branded machines are actually just LED's flashing for the benefit of the camera. On the John Bean™ branded machines the LEDs are infrared, so you can't see them, but they are doing the same strobe function. Now that the original 1996 Patent owned by Snap-on has expired, there are a few off shore companies making copies of what the two main players have been doing since 1993. :couch2:
As you were!

Thanks for the correction and the lesson on vehicle alignment machines. I always thought they were lasers or at least that's what they looked like to me.

Even though I was wrong about how the machines work, the point I was trying to make is a person is better off paying to get their car aligned at a shop rather that trying to do it themselves with a tape measure. The machines seem pretty high tech so I always assumed an alignment with one of these machines would achieve a good result.

Since you seem to be a authority on this, is my above statement bullshit or can somebody do just as accurate of a job with a tape measure?

 

[mtbtim]

Do they even adjust the caster? I have watched a few alignments so far and they just do the toe and are done with it. The print out shows everything within specs.

I was told by a friend who use to work at an alignment shop that you can adjust caster with the cam adjusters on the LCAs. It was a little hard for me to understand how it works but I sort of got it when he explained it to me. Maybe one the experienced alignment contributors to this thread can explain it.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Thanks for the correction and the lesson on vehicle alignment machines. I always thought they were lasers or at least that's what they looked like to me.

Even though I was wrong about how the machines work, the point I was trying to make is a person is better off paying to get their car aligned at a shop rather that trying to do it themselves with a tape measure. The machines seem pretty high tech so I always assumed an alignment with one of these machines would achieve a good result.

Since you seem to be a authority on this, is my above statement bullshit or can somebody do just as accurate of a job with a tape measure?

Well you are right, sort of. It's not impossible to do an accurate alignment with a tape measure, a good level or caster camber gauge, and some string. It is however very time consuming, and requires some geometry and the ability to do some math. But why would you want to spend 3 or 4 hours when a modern aligner can do it in 30-40 minutes, and give you a printed report. Throw in the fact that doing it on the floor doesn't give you the ability to walk underneath and make your adjustments(I'm too old to do it on my back), and it just makes so much more sense to pay for an alignment. Now all you have to do is read a few threads about the idgits who tell the 3rd gen runner "that's as good as it can get", when in fact they don't know what to do. So I can see why some would rather attempt it themselves.

As for the caster adjustments, if you move the rear eccentric out, the geometry of the lower arm necessitates that the lower ball joint move forward. That creates a more Positive Caster Angle. Moving the front eccentric "in" has the same effect. The inverse would then create a more Negative angle by moving the ball joint rearward.

 

[nobb]

Camber and caster is a pain to get correctly as a newbie and not worth the time to DIY IMO. I found that even with my 2.5" Old Man Emu lift, I could not get the camber perfectly 0 due to the geometry limits of the suspension.

Toe however, is relatively easy to get correct, just time consuming because of the time spent double checking all the measurements. I used a digital caliper + two runs of fine fishing string running parallel to both sides of the vehicle and using the rear (fixed) axle as a reference point. It took me about 1.5 hours because I'm OCD with measuring and checking, but still worth it for not having to find time in my schedule to go to a shop.

Also for future reference, I did the math and figured out the following approximation that might help others in fine tuning the last bit of their toe adjustment:

Distance between threads on tie rod is ~1.5 mm, so each full turn of the OTRE adjusts length by 1.5 mm. Distance from tie rod center point to lower ball joint center point ~16 cm. Therefore, one turn of the tie rod end adjusts toe by: arctan(1.5/160) = ~0.54 degrees. These are very rough numbers.

 

[amalik]

Truth is many cars don't offer you the ability to adjust Camber, much less Caster. But it boggles my mind how many techs don't drive the car first.

Then how the hell does a tech align camber and caster on such a vehicle?

 

[amalik]

That's a fair question to ask. I do drive the vehicle first to verify the complaint (pulling or steering wheel off-center) as it takes different adjustments to fix each of those. As you know, pulling is caused by incorrectly set camber/caster or too much of a cross split between them and toe generally affects the position of the steering wheel and causes vibrations at highway speeds. It's also pretty obvious to tell when simply looking at the tires during a multi-point inspection if it needs an alignment.

And when possible, I try to always compensate caster for road crown over camber as caster does not cause tire wear. However, most of our FWD vehicles don't even have a cross caster specification, but when we do split it we keep it under half a degree difference with drivers side being less positive.

Also, it should be noted that a pull issue is not always caused by the alignment being off. Sometimes it is simply the tire and typically we will first swap tires side to side then drive. If it still pulls, then we will put it on the rack. All of this after checking tire pressure, of course.

I've been using Lifetime Alignment at Firestone for years now on both my 4Runner and my Civic, the most I've ever seen a tech drive one of my cars is a tiny bit in the lot, most don't even do that. Straight to the rack, and let the machine do work, etc. Never had a tech ask me if they can swap tires side to side or etc.

Sounds like Firestone is not as thorough as wherever you work. Probably because its basically free work (Hey, not my fault lifetime alignment pays for itself after 2 alignments, lol).

 

[phattyduck]

Then how the hell does a tech align camber and caster on such a vehicle?

The tech doesn't. You either have to replace parts or add aftermarket parts to get those adjustments.

The rear suspension on my wife's outback has ONE adjustment - and it does toe and camber at the same time. Really limiting design... Most McPherson strut front suspensions are missing camber adjustments now too...

-Charlie

 

[amalik]

The tech doesn't. You either have to replace parts or add aftermarket parts to get those adjustments.

The rear suspension on my wife's outback has ONE adjustment - and it does toe and camber at the same time. Really limiting design... Most McPherson strut front suspensions are missing camber adjustments now too...

-Charlie

I'm still confused.

Not confused about the limitations of the design, sure, you (manufacturer xyz) can design anything under the sun.

I'm confused about... let's say you hit curbs and potholes over a 1 year period in said vehicle, and you are pulling all sorts of ways. A tire/wheel balance and getting only TOE correct doesn't sound like you can fully correct the issue without being able to adjust *ANY* camber or caster.

 

[phattyduck]

I'm still confused.

Not confused about the limitations of the design, sure, you (manufacturer xyz) can design anything under the sun.

I'm confused about... let's say you hit curbs and potholes over a 1 year period in said vehicle, and you are pulling all sorts of ways. A tire/wheel balance and getting only TOE correct doesn't sound like you can fully correct the issue without being able to adjust *ANY* camber or caster.

Manufacturers answer: Buy replacement parts. They'd rather sell you new control arms, struts, whatever than spend a bit extra on new vehicles to include adjustment cams, etc.

It makes the car cheaper to buy and "cheaper" to own based off "expected" maintenance (toe and go alignment should be cheaper than a full alignment). It doesn't make it better in the real world though.

-Charlie

 

[IBallEngineer]

I've been using Lifetime Alignment at Firestone for years now on both my 4Runner and my Civic, the most I've ever seen a tech drive one of my cars is a tiny bit in the lot, most don't even do that. Straight to the rack, and let the machine do work, etc. Never had a tech ask me if they can swap tires side to side or etc.

Sounds like Firestone is not as thorough as wherever you work. Probably because its basically free work (Hey, not my fault lifetime alignment pays for itself after 2 alignments, lol).

It never pays for itself if you wear out tires, or are unhappy with the way the vehicle drives.

I don't work for an alignment shop, but I've taught many alignment techs how to do alignments correctly. I teach high school now and I still teach alignment, but only the basics for now.