"Do I need an Auto tech... or a Priest?"

[wfo9]

Let me make a simple post from 25 years of troubleshooting extremely complex systems.
You have an electrical problem. You have made electrical modifications. The stock circuit is working in 250, 000 4Runners with no issues.
One of the first things I do when troubleshooting is take the system back to what I know worked. That is the first thing I do to eliminate any unknown conditions. After I do that and I still have a problem I then befin a systemic analysis of a known working system. [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] is correct. I won't begin to judge the tech or dealership because I have to hear both sides of the story but I would start undoing your mods just to get back to a known circuit. If it fixes it so much the better. We do it on stuff we designed! Sometimes in order to solve a problem you have to eliminate variables. Only then can you figure out what is wrong.

Now, people like @ ducmonsta and [MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION] and [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] are great people and help out a ton. Why would you think they were doing anything other than helping you?

Again I mod machines all the time. If I have a problem the first thing I do is un-mod it back to a known working model.

i sort of agree, it's not a horrible step to take here, but it is not always that cut and dry. I have been troubleshooting really complex systems for about the same amount of time and there are always two questions that come out of my mouth when someone presents a state of chaos in the system for me to solve.

1. What recently changed (Both internal and external to the system)
2. what diagnostic information do we have that surround the problem area. Logs, monitors, instrumentation.

If this aftermarket alternator was working fine and dandy for 6 months or a year, then it is a totally different scenario.

Again, modern cars are a network of digital components these days. Very different than old school analog based machinery with a single circuit of power....

 

[Ducmonsta]

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

I think we are on the same page here. If you go back and read my posts, they pretty much say the same thing with one exception.

So, one quick non-productive diversion. I still don't follow on a dealer has the right to refuse service for any reason. I do not believe that is true in the case of warranty work, since the dealer represents Toyota and Toyota is obligated by a contract to honor the warranty. They can only refuse it for a valid reason and need to provide some level of proof. They will quickly lose that battle in court in a big way and Toyota will not be too happy with what it will end up costing them.

You obviously did not mean this, but what If they refused service to a new vehicle owner (who happened to be a minority ethnicity) and said we don't provide warranty service to your ethnicity here... That would be ridiculous, but you get the idea. Refusing warranty work is much different than not taking on new business. If that same minority walked in without a warranty and they told him we are too busy to take on out of warranty work, then it would be 100% legal, since they are under no contract at that point. Warranty is an existing contract that they have already committed to and must honor. The dealers are named in that contract. In fact, the contact states that the consumer must take it to the dealer for warranty.

If the vehicle was a bio hazard... that would be a legitimate reason to refuse all service, but an aftermarket alternator is not such a reason and I think you and i both agree on that. The FTC is pretty darn serious about this. There are very few things that void the warranty without requiring written proof (salvage title...).

A dealership is a private business. They can refuse work for whatever reason they want. In the example you have given above, they can absolutely refuse business to someone of a different ethnicity. Is it morally correct, no. But they can refuse the business none the less.

If the dealership were to refuse warranty work because, in this case, of an alternator, then they would have to prove that the alternator caused the failure. That's what I think we're both saying.

I've worked with multiple dealerships that won't work on a truck because it's been lifted. I've known some that won't even rotate tires because the wheels were not factory. They did not want to take the liability of damaging a wheel that they could not replace. Maybe I can give a clearer example. If you bring in a bone stock truck with the exception of having 24" wheels and asked for an alignment. They can simply say that it can't be done because they don't have the equipment to handle the 24" wheel. Even if the vehicle had 200 miles on it and it was obviously under warranty. That truck could be pulling hard to the left bad enough that you would drive into oncoming traffic. The dealership does not have the means to correct it because their equipment can't handle it. So they would have to ask you to put the stock wheels back on before they touch it.

In rigtec's case, the technician should have just said he is not comfortable diagnosing a system that's been modified because he has no training with what an aftermarket alternator can do to a system.

 

[wfo9]

Warranty is really weird lately, in the older days dealers got away with warranty a lot of stuff. Now Toyota has cracked down on it hard, I'm surprised they don't have us taking chemical analysis of fluids and such like other brands do when components fail (though they do get on us about lot# and such sometimes.)

Its a bit tricky there because in your example you're right, the dealer is going to get nailed easily for refusing; but most customers will not persue the matter much further than that and move on to another dealer. Its one of those things where the dealer is screwed by the company (Toyota pays the dealer AFTER the work and they decide IF the warranty work was warrantable, despite what the dealer does) and the customer (because IF they take the risk to sink hours diagnosing a vehicle and it turns out to be not warrantable, they have to go after the customer; who most likely will fight them tooth an nail.) Either way unless its a clear-cut deal, most dealerships would rather pass the buck onto another dealership and take the hit in CSI than risk tying up a tech, rack, and income on a most likely non-warrantable job that they'd either lose money on or have to go through collections to get.

You nailed it and this is exactly what i have been trying to point out and exactly why consumers need to stand up to these practices or they will continue. This is not an isolated incident in any way shape or form.

 

[wfo9]

A dealership is a private business. They can refuse work for whatever reason they want. In the example you have given above, they can absolutely refuse business to someone of a different ethnicity. Is it morally correct, no. But they can refuse the business none the less.

If the dealership were to refuse warranty work because, in this case, of an alternator, then they would have to prove that the alternator caused the failure. That's what I think we're both saying.

I've worked with multiple dealerships that won't work on a truck because it's been lifted. I've known some that won't even rotate tires because the wheels were not factory. They did not want to take the liability of damaging a wheel that they could not replace. Maybe I can give a clearer example. If you bring in a bone stock truck with the exception of having 24" wheels and asked for an alignment. They can simply say that it can't be done because they don't have the equipment to handle the 24" wheel. Even if the vehicle had 200 miles on it and it was obviously under warranty. That truck could be pulling hard to the left bad enough that you would drive into oncoming traffic. The dealership does not have the means to correct it because their equipment can't handle it. So they would have to ask you to put the stock wheels back on before they touch it.

In rigtec's case, the technician should have just said he is not comfortable diagnosing a system that's been modified because he has no training with what an aftermarket alternator can do to a system.

I'm still not following.

There is a contract that Toyota made with the consumer. That contract has terms, one of those terms states that the consumer must take the car to a Toyota dealership for warranty repairs. That term means that all Toyota dealerships must offer warranty repair to all Toyota consumers who walk into their doors with active warranties, in a reasonable time frame. If the vehicles are specialized, and only certain dealers are able to repair, that must be called out in the contract, otherwise all Toyota dealers are assumed. It's detailed out in the fine print as a nationwide warranty.

This puts Toyota and the Dealership in a legal contract with the consumer. If any dealer refuses warranty repair without a legitimate reason, they are breaking a legal contract. The FTC law states that they cannot deny a warranty repair on a vehicle unless they can prove that an aftermarket part is at fault. Turning a customer away without running diagnostics on the vehicle is not enough proof and anyone in their right mind can see that.

Can they turn someone away, sure. It's not criminal, but they will lose in civil court for breach of contract in a warranty situation. Both Toyota and the Dealership could be held liable in the lawsuit.

I'm not talking about getting your tires rotated, they can refuse that all day long since that is not under warranty. If your AC went out under warranty and they said your tires were too big to work on the truck.... they would lose the case. Seems cut and dry to me.

Ducmonsta, I read your reply again and maybe you are just agreeing with me, but stating it differently. Dealers are obligated to provide a legitimate reason for not providing warranty repair to a customer with an active warranty. They can turn away non warranty customers without a reason.

 

[hearno]

Yeah I'm thinking [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] is correct about the warranty work issue. While each dealership is owned independently... they are required to do the warranty work. I worked for Toyota right out of school for a little while and I recall several PITA customers that everyone hated dealing with. We had no choice if they were there for warranty work but other than that, they were asked to leave.

 

[Ducmonsta]

I'm still not following.

There is a contract that Toyota made with the consumer. That contract has terms, one of those terms states that the consumer must take the car to a Toyota dealership for warranty repairs.

This puts Toyota and the Dealership in a legal contract with the consumer. If the dealer refuses warranty repair without a legitimate reason, they are breaking a legal contract. The FTC law states that they cannot deny a warranty repair on a vehicle unless they can prove that an aftermarket part is at fault. Turning a customer away without running diagnostics on the vehicle is not enough proof and anyone in their right mind can see that.

Can they turn someone away, sure. It's not criminal, but they will lose in civil court for breach of contract in a warranty situation. Both Toyota and the Dealership could be held liable in the lawsuit.

I'm not talking about getting your tires rotated, they can refuse that all day long since that is not under warranty. If your AC went out under warranty and they said your tires were too big to work on the truck.... they would lose the case. Seems cut and dry to me.

You are absolutely 100% correct in that the dealer and toyota have to honor a warranty and prove that an aftermarket part caused failure. We're together there.

What I'm failing to explain is the alignment example.

Stock wheels were 17". Aftermarket ones are 24". The dealer is obviously capable of aligning a stock 17" wheel because they are trained to do so and have the correct equipment.

Vehicle had 200 miles on it and is dangerously pulling left. It's been happening since day one before the customer put the 24" wheels on.

Dealerships alignment machine can't align 24" wheels. They don't have the adapters for their alignment heads to clamp onto a 24" wheel.

So they say, put the factory wheels on it so that we can perform an alignment under warranty and you don't go crashing into oncoming traffic.

Now change the scenario and substitute 24" wheel with HO alternator. And 17" wheel with factory alternator.

This is an extreme scenario as you and I both know that an alternator is pretty much the same across the board with the exception of how many amps it generates. But let's just say that the HO alternator somehow isn't playing nice with the factory toyota wiring and CAN bus system. Or that the OPs "big three" isn't causing some sort of weird resistance values. Or there's some sort of ground issue with the alt and/or its wiring. Who knows, but this particular tech doesn't want to mess with it for fear of losing his ass on the job.

It comes down to....
Pay this tech to diagnose it without a cap on diag fees. And if in fact it is under warranty, have toyota cover the 1hr standard warranty. While rigtec is stuck with the other possible 3-4 hours of diag because the tech had to deal with aftermarket components. All because his flow chart was designed to test an alternator that originally came with the truck.

If the guy in my alignment scenario would just put his 17" wheels back on and get his free warranty alignment, he wouldn't have to deal with his truck pulling into oncoming traffic anymore.

 

[harper7]

Not entirely sure how the thread got so side tracked...

In any case, in my personal and professional opinion of the "dealership incident" is as follows:

-Customer was aware that warranty may be denied and was okay with this
-Technician basically refused to work on the vehicle
-Customer was still expected to cover cost of diagnosis, even though technician refused to work on the vehicle.

The last part is the issue I took with the technician & service writer, I have no problem if the technician wants to back out of the issue or even if he wants to half-ass it and just blame it on the aftermarket stuff and call it a day. Its when the technician and/or service writer expect to get paid for not doing anything that upset me. The issues was that the technician didn't do anything beyond pop the hood and see the aftermarket wiring. Had he at least said, "I checked for DTCs and some of them are related to Voltage supply issues and I am suspecting the alternator is at play here and I want to restore the system to stock to verify" I'm sure the OP would not have had an issue, where as the way it was presented was basically refusing to work on the vehicle but still wanting to take the money for a job they didn't actually do.
[MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] is right, we (as technicians) are getting not paid to diagnose your vehicle completely. What we are getting paid for is a .8-1.0hrs of labor to perform diagnostic tesing. I have come across jobs where I have to go back and ask for additional hours because we're struggling with diagnostics and/or the issue is so big we can't just figure it out in such a short amount of time. But that is on the service writer to present the job as "we are charging you 1hr to START diagnostics, if we need additional time it will be up to you to decide how much further you want to go." This is designed to help us avoid cases where the customer gets a bill for 20hrs of diagnostics when they only expected 1-2hrs.

The dealership has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the same as most any other business. Now its not in their best interest to do so, but we've had to turn away some customers before. I had a lady who had something seriously wrong with her head, because the Prius she drove was a biological hazard on wheels! The seat frames were flaking rust from god knows what she pissed/spilled in the vehicle and the stench and filth was so severe we put on hazardous particulate filters, gloves and taped seat covers on our uniform to work in that vehicle just to program a key. Afterwards we ask the customer to not expect us to service that vehicle again.

The issue with warranty pay is that the dealership pays upfront for any warranty work, then Toyota reviews the warranty repair orders and authorizes reimbursement. Which means if we charge 3hours of diagnostics under warranty and Toyota comes in and says, "customer had an aftermarket alternator, issue is electrical, warranty is voided." The dealership is stuck with the bill, so many dealerships will nip a job that even hints it could be voided in the bud to avoid any possible conflict (hence why so warranty is such a pain in the ass for members likes us.)

Post Note-
[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION]

What mods exactly have you installed on the vehicle and does the vehicle have any extras from when you bought it? i.e. dealer/port installed alarm, ect?

I don't remember if I asked you before or not. I'm trying to get an idea if the alternator may be worth focusing on, the issue is that IF the alternator is charging within the ideal voltage ranges it shouldn't be an issue. Most modules are running some form of actively converter to reduce the voltage to a stabilized 5v; otherwise when the alternator jumps from 13.4-14+ volts the 5v reference would always be in accurate. The issue though is that if grounds or powers INTO those modules is wonky that could skew some things.

More importantly we still need an idea of the DTCs you have in the vehicle to get a more accurate idea what section of the electrical system we need to address. If the CAN bus was affected it'd take down the entire network depending on the issue (short to power or ground would take down the network lines due to failsafes), where if it was a break or even weird signalling/excessive resistance it could cause issues to/from a particular module. At this point we're still flying blind without the DTCs and/or healthcheck report to get an idea of what is going on.

Jeez!Just read through this train wreck of a thread.:wtf:
What you and wfo9 are missing in his rant against the tech is what Greg added later in post #78 and forgot to mention in his earlier rants .
Right before I left the Dealership the last time, the S/Consultant said to me... "the tech said that the OBD port stopped communicating and there were no codes but one of your BCM's are shut-off; he just doesn't know which one or where it's located..." I asked him how do we determine which one and where it is and he said, you just have to start taking stuff apart! Then he handed me the information about the guy they use when they have a problem (ATOW) "See their video link in my previous post #59

Which means the tech did do his job of trying to trouble shoot through the OBD with techstream and should have been paid. Of course he probably checked the fuses for them as any tech should/would do when you don't get any OBD communication . He ended up doing all this for free . Any troubleshooting beyond this is going to be real expensive and beyond the scope of that job and they did exactly what I and probably you would have done.

As far as the warranty ,if you mod and upgrade the electrical systems and have electrical problems it's a no brainer that's Toyota can't be held liable and not getting what wfo9 is saying about legitimate reason to refuse warranty.

Question for you BlackWorksInc.... He took it to a different dealer this time but since he said he has an active lawsuit against another dealer"I'd just rather not take it to the dealership; remember I'm suing them for my 'Entune" problems (and for lying about it) and I really let them have it in my last email component!"

Does that record and his previous service calls come up in the system at all Toyota dealerships?.... or maybe you can't answer that.lol

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION].... That rant against Bobby aka Ducmonsta who happens to be one of the most generous,helpful members on this forum was so far out of line that you would be banned for life if I were a Moderator.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]

I read that post regarding communication but honestly... it sounds to me like the Tech either did not interpret his results properly or something wasn't stated properly, or the tech was just lazy and tried to pass the vehicle off without at least doing a few quick checks.

If he has no communication, of course he won't get any DTCs; but more importantly on the 5th gens all data is handled through the OBDII CAN lines via scantool (except for ABS which is like the 4th Gens's setup where ABS functions/communications were handled on a separate 1-wire communication line; not to mention on some other brands, factory communication is handled on a completely different set of wires) which means that IF the Tech is able to determine that "One of the BCMs is not working" (which by the way on the scantool is shown as "Its not Communicating/or is not installed" most of the time, also since he seems to know its one of apparently multiple BCMs we have [we have only 1 BCM in the vehicle, the rest are clearly labeled] then he could make an educated guess where it is since TIS SHOWS you the location of all modules) then he's able to communicate on the CAN lines, which means he most definitely would see DTCs (because those lamps would not set without a DTC, even if it was a "False" DTC set by a weird electrical glitch; it would still fail module PIDs and trip a malfunction in the system) Now we can assume that the technician checked the fuses (you'd be surprised how many forget) and I am willing to extend him that courtesy, but his next "quick" check (like 5 minutes or less) would be to check Pin #16 for Source Voltage, Pin#4 for continuity, Pin#6 CAN-H & Pin#14 CAN-L for cycling voltage (probably hard to see on a DVOM, but we really just want to see activity more than anything) but the voltage should be around 1-2v anything higher than that, or no voltage would indicate a blatantly obvious issue on the communication line. Then the technician could tell the customer, "I suspect a voltage related issue with the system based on lack of communication and excessive voltage on the line; this could have been caused by the alternator, we need to return the vehicle to stock before I can proceed with testing."

The entire story of the Technician's assumption, attitude, and "diagnostics" sound both fishy and all too familiar to me (I have heard a couple coworkers spout that type of response when they just don't want to deal with a vehicle.) Based on what was posted it sounds like the tech tried to hook up the scantool, checked the fuses (which I doubt, but I will throw a dog a bone here), and failed to do a follow-up quick check that would have given him enough information and credibility to back-up his pre-canned statement. My personal guess? He probably hooked up the scantool and it didn't communicate properly and he just packed it up and tried to pass off the canned response. At least if he had done what I suggested he'd have waste maybe 10-15 minutes on the vehicle and he'd sound far more credible about denying a warranty claim and wanting the customer to return the vehicle to stock. Hell, he might have had enough to get the service writer to push to get payment for services rendered; instead it just sounds like he did nothing of value and he cheated himself out of a possible .8-1.0hrs out of laziness.

~

In regards to the records, I couldn't exactly say? The most you see on the Toyota history is what the vehicle came in for previously. As far as I know there isn't an internal code to blacklist a vehicle such as Audi, or any way for a dealership to know that he's in litigation with another dealership over an issue unless he states it.

Post Note-

I try to not get to worked up over people making rude/angry comments against me. I have seen both [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] and [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] help members and make genuine efforts to be polite; I chalk it up to people getting frustrated and mis-interpreting a person's intent. Now one post I'll forgive as stress/misdirected anger, but someone starting a pattern of bashing another person just shows they truly intend to be hurtful.

If I let people who trash talk me or try to be rude to me get under my skin; I'd probably never bother helping anyone on the forums ever. I try to be polite and helpful; but I tend to be straight forward and will call people on their shit. That's not something people always want to hear when they're struggling with an issue and they're already angry and frustrated.

I say either apologize and move on, or at least make an effort to show that your outburst doesn't define who you are as a person.

 

[wfo9]

Jeez!Just read through this train wreck of a thread.:wtf:
What you and wfo9 are missing in his rant against the tech is what Greg added later in post #78 and forgot to mention in his earlier rants .
Right before I left the Dealership the last time, the S/Consultant said to me... "the tech said that the OBD port stopped communicating and there were no codes but one of your BCM's are shut-off; he just doesn't know which one or where it's located..." I asked him how do we determine which one and where it is and he said, you just have to start taking stuff apart! Then he handed me the information about the guy they use when they have a problem (ATOW) "See their video link in my previous post #59

Which means the tech did do his job of trying to trouble shoot through the OBD with techstream and should have been paid. Of course he probably checked the fuses for them as any tech should/would do when you don't get any OBD communication . He ended up doing all this for free . Any troubleshooting beyond this is going to be real expensive and beyond the scope of that job and they did exactly what I and probably you would have done.

As far as the warranty ,if you mod and upgrade the electrical systems and have electrical problems it's a no brainer that's Toyota can't be held liable and not getting what wfo9 is saying about legitimate reason to refuse warranty.

Question for you BlackWorksInc.... He took it to a different dealer this time but since he said he has an active lawsuit against another dealer"I'd just rather not take it to the dealership; remember I'm suing them for my 'Entune" problems (and for lying about it) and I really let them have it in my last email component!"

Does that record and his previous service calls come up in the system at all Toyota dealerships?.... or maybe you can't answer that.lol

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION].... That rant against Bobby aka Ducmonsta who happens to be one of the most generous,helpful members on this forum was so far out of line that you would be banned for life if I were a Moderator.

That part was a little confusing, but I think you read it wrong. The tech did not hook up anything when rigtec presented the truck at the dealership with the instrument cluster problem. I asked that specific question somewhere along the way and he responded with a clear statement that the tech did nothing but rant.

He is referring to information provided from another dealer encounter he had with an Etune issue (unrelated to the dash).

I still say the burden of proof is on Toyota. If you swap your stereo out, you can't blame every problem in the electrical system on it unless you can prove the aftermarket stereo is at fault... Now, if the alternator is tested and proven to be outputting amps/voltage out of range, then obviously that is a valid excuse to not honor the warranty. 5 minutes of work, but too bad the dealer is not willing to do that 5 minutes of good will.... I really think all of you would be pissed about that.

There is one big wildcard here (as mentioned before). We are only getting one side of the story. There could be a rats nest of wires under the hood... but I'm assuming that is not the case and these assumptions are based on what I have experienced with dealers and Toyota. This is a common tactic and I think it is wrong.

Imagine if he had a tech like BlackWorksInc on it, He would have been on here saying what an awesome experience he had with Toyota. And remember, he was willing to pay if the issue was related to his aftermarket parts. It's a win win, but not when you have an unqualified (easy money is all I do) tech on the job.

 

[Randyman...]

Can you put an oscilloscope on the truck's electrical system and see if the HO Alternator is spitting out tons of noise (dirty DC Power)? Just because you read acceptable DC voltage @ load does not say anything about the quality of the DC Power it is spitting out (ripple, noise, etc). I could see that causing all kinds of havoc on a modern vehicle's electrical system.

Stock 130A Alternator is keeping my truck up and running with the (sensibly enjoyed) 4KW audio system

What a thread! layball:

 

[Biggcrisp]

Can you put an oscilloscope on the truck's electrical system and see if the HO Alternator is spitting out tons of noise (dirty DC Power)? Just because you read acceptable DC voltage @ load does not say anything about the quality of the DC Power it is spitting out (ripple, noise, etc). I could see that causing all kinds of havoc on a modern vehicle's electrical system.

Stock 130A Alternator is keeping my truck up and running with the (sensibly enjoyed) 4KW audio system

What a thread! layball:

Pretty sure DC voltage <50 volts is very simple. Plug in a voltmeter and what you see is what you got lol. AC voltage can be all kinds of dirty. A bad ground can be the strangest critter of them all.

I've tinkered with a few 80 - 90's corvette restorations. Cut the instrument ground cable while the + terminal is hot and watch the sh!tshow.

BCM is over my pay grade.

 

[Randyman...]

Pretty sure DC voltage <50 volts is very simple. Plug in a voltmeter and what you see is what you got lol. AC voltage can be all kinds of dirty. A bad ground can be the strangest critter of them all.

I've tinkered with a few 80 - 90's corvette restorations. Cut the instrument ground cable while the + terminal is hot and watch the sh!tshow.

BCM is over my pay grade.

You do know why it's called an "ALTERNATOR", correct? The current starts off as AC (likely VERY noisy AC at that!) and is rectified to DC. Lots of opportunity for a noisy DC supply there! All DC is not created equal

Clean rectified DC power is not a walk in the park - far from it in fact (I'm an Audio guy and any piece of Audio gear requires clean DC internally - so pristine DC power is a precious commodity in my world)... It's anyone's guess where the noise threshold is for the ECU and BCM start wigging out? But might be a possibility...


An oscilloscope would immediately show how clean/dirty the DC current from his H.O. Alternator is w/o having to remove the alternator if Rigtec knows anyone that has one (he might even have one).

 

[Biggcrisp]

You do know why it's called an "ALTERNATOR", correct? The current starts off as AC (likely VERY noisy AC at that!) and is rectified to DC. Lots of opportunity for a noisy DC supply there! All DC is not created equal

Clean rectified DC power is not a walk in the park - far from it in fact (I'm an Audio guy and any piece of Audio gear requires clean DC internally - so pristine DC power is a precious commodity in my world)... It's anyone's guess where the noise threshold is for the ECU and BCM start wigging out? But might be a possibility...


An oscilloscope would immediately show how clean/dirty the DC current from his H.O. Alternator is w/o having to remove the alternator if Rigtec knows anyone that has one (he might even have one).

You are correct. I was thinking in simple terms that a set of rectifiers (diode bridge) is required to convert AC to DC in order to provide direct current with low ripple. However, it wouldn't surprise me if these newer trucks were using the ECU or some other computer to control voltage. That being the case we (us old guys) are back to the HO alternator as being suspect.

 

[Randyman...]

Bump for updates... hone:

 

[Jono.ful]

personally, I'd really like to see a conclusion to this (the electrical issue, not the battle royal). I had been seriously considering upgrading my alternator....

 

[Randyman...]

I would also like to know if Rigtec put an oscilliscope on his ride to check for DC Noise from that HO Alternator - or what the outcome was otherwise...

I have a feeling that HO Alternator was to blame. Not to say that any HO Alternator will cause the same issues (again depending how well it is rectifying the AC current to clean DC, and then how tolerant is the BCM and ECU with regard to said DC Noise).

4KW RMS Audio System does just fine with the 130Amp stock Alt over 'yander, but I could see some heavy-draw accessories causing issues over time (Stereo System load is highly dynamic but pulls 300Amps at times, where accessory loads are MUCH lower amperage but static).

Quick re-charge times can also be a neat benefit of HO Alternators, but they will invariably shorten battery life at those high charge rates (and this assumes you are dis-charging the battery enough to warrant a HO Alt just to reduce re-charge times).

 

[Jono.ful]

voltage regulation is an important but not overly complicated process in this application. and with a full wave bridge rectifier, the ripple voltage is minimal (IIRC Vr= (Vmax/.707)x0.995 for a full wave bridge). I'd be surprised if there was a lot of noise, but I suppose its possible.
in my case, I run a fair bit of accessory lighting (but all of it LED), HID's, winch, sub, aftermarket head unit, cb, compressor, and likely a ham before too long as well. a dual battery set up is in the works, and it just seems logical to go to a HO alternator, but I have no intention of inviting electrical demons like those noted by rigtech above upon myself.

 

[Randyman...]

voltage regulation is an important but not overly complicated process in this application. and with a full wave bridge rectifier, the ripple voltage is minimal (IIRC Vr= (Vmax/.707)x0.995 for a full wave bridge). I'd be surprised if there was a lot of noise, but I suppose its possible.
in my case, I run a fair bit of accessory lighting (but all of it LED), HID's, winch, sub, aftermarket head unit, cb, compressor, and likely a ham before too long as well. a dual battery set up is in the works, and it just seems logical to go to a HO alternator, but I have no intention of inviting electrical demons like those noted by rigtech above upon myself.

Tight Regulation is also part of it, but a separate component from rectification. A full-wave Bridge Rectifier obviously performs better than a half wave rectifier, but still has significant ripple as you can probably imagine (at least for audio applications). Further smoothing is required by way of capacitors of sufficient size (not sure if Alternators use smoothing caps?), and even then "Pure" DC is not easily achieved (in the audio Worlds' tolerance range). I doubt loose regulation alone would affect the BCM/ECU as they are expected to deal with such voltage irregularities during cranking and such.

I can imagine an Alternator's rectification being a little tougher than a perfect split-primary from a relatively steady AC source (like wall-power). I have no clue how susceptible the BCM and ECU are to ripple, so I'm only speaking from an Audio perspective of possible detriments of a dirty DC current supply.

I was simply suggesting the oscilloscope as an alternative to removing Rigtec's HO Alternator (and re-installing the stocker) to see if it might be at fault. Save quite a bit of labor IMO...

 

[Jono.ful]

indeed, and I completely agree with your point about the dc out of an alternator being somewhat dirty. Audio appliances have integrated L filters specifically for this reason, and signal processing obviously benefits from the cleanest power possible.
I mentioned voltage regulation because someone else pointed out in a previous post that the new HO alternator could be providing a voltage that is outside of the stock spec, not because I was trying to suggest it was a a function of the rectifier portion of the alternator. my point there was to suggest that the ripple voltage from a full wave bridge is the best, or lowest value.

 

[Randyman...]

Bumping for status update from Rigtec (seen you posting today ). Did you get this sorted?