Drain/Fill transmission fluid problems

[atalarico]

After deciding I had gone long enough without doing a little drain and refill procedure on my ATF, I decided to start the process two weeks ago. The transmission is original and has 214k on it.

I thought the first drain and fill went fine. I drained about 2 qts, and added about 2 qts. I under-torqued the drain bolt in fear of over torquing it, but a day later my transmission started showing signs of leaking and being low.

The signs I noticed were trouble down shifting and shifting back up from a stop (the more sudden the stop, the worse it was). Recognizing at least one of the problems, I tightened up the drain plug and added 1/2 qt. I noticed the bolt got really snug, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I also attributed some of the leak to it just being a super old transmission with leaky gaskets. I figured once some of the new ATF cycled through it would mix with the old ATF and stop leaking a bit more (a lot like when I do oil changes).

So, I didn't have the slipping transmissions issues after I tightened up and added fluid. Fast forward a week...go to do this again, remove the bolt and it gets stripped. That turns into a debacle in itself but I manage to make a temporary fix for the drain plug with hopes that it will hold until the weather warms up again in Denver. At that point I will plan on using a 10mm tap on the drain plug (which is the diameter of temporary bolt I got to hold in place), or "simply" replace the pan.

After all of that, I re-add fluid again until I'm at the cold line. Drive for a day in the city (about 10 miles) and I can tell she's struggling. I basically start adding and driving until it stops slipping as much. The trouble is that I realized my car doesn't sit level in my driveway (on top of my suspension not being totally level either), and there aren't a whole lot of places I think are level that I can check my dipstick.

I have no idea if I'm actually over-filled or not, but I know that the transmission runs more like normal than it did when I was under-filled. My real question is, since these dipstick's aren't exactly spot on, should I just fill until the transmission runs better? I have taken a few longer drives up into the mountains, and aside from a little burning oil smell (which is also coming from leaking valve cover seal), the dipstick didn't have bubbles on it or anything.

 

[atalarico]

Also, is there somewhere on the truck I can use a level to see how off it is for measuring fluids like ATF and oil?

 

[Brveagle]

There is nowhere around you that is flat ground? A shoulder on the side of the road?

I think alot of your issues could be fixed by accurately checking your dipstick while the 4runner is running. Add fluid if low.

Not to sound like an internet snob, but that dip stick is there for a reason. Guessing is not the way to do it.

 

[atalarico]

There is but the problem is complicated by my suspension not being level either. I've read on this forum and a few others that the dipstick isn't always spot on and is more of a guide.

Unfortunately my questions are a bit more complex than just how to use a dipstick. Again, since these dipstick's aren't exactly spot on, should I just fill until the transmission runs smoother? Also, is there somewhere on the truck I can use a level to see how off it is for measuring fluids like ATF and oil and is there a good way to compensate depending on the degrees that it's off-level?

 

[atalarico]

...and as a side note; there weren't any issues with my transmission and I was trying to "do the right thing" by doing preventative/regularly scheduled maintenance. It's been a great lesson in "if it's not broke, don't fix it, ya nimrod!"

=(

 

[jgue467]

Also, is there somewhere on the truck I can use a level to see how off it is for measuring fluids like ATF and oil?

I kinda struggle with the same thing - so what i did to figure out how far off my driveway is was go to a 'big box' hardware store like lowes or home depot, they usually have a concrete slab that is pretty level near their lumber section.

I park there out of the way towards the front/back, edges whatever, then place a small 12-18" level on the passenger floorboard, then measure what i have in the engine/trans oils, then go home and see the difference. Now i know what is level and how it relates to my driveway - so i don't need to go to lowes ever time i want to see where my fluids are.

But yeah, i've slightly overfilled both engine oil and trans fluid - probably 'better' than under filling, purrs like a kitten. :cowboy:

 

[flyinbrick]

...and as a side note; there weren't any issues with my transmission and I was trying to "do the right thing" by doing preventative/regularly scheduled maintenance. It's been a great lesson in "if it's not broke, don't fix it, ya nimrod!"

=(

I've got a 5-speed so I can't really help. But to get the truck level, how about getting some 2x6 or plywood to drive on? You can measure from the wheel center to the body arch and figure out the thickness you need to compensate and get level.

 

[atalarico]

I kinda struggle with the same thing - so what i did to figure out how far off my driveway is was go to a 'big box' hardware store like lowes or home depot, they usually have a concrete slab that is pretty level near their lumber section.

I park there out of the way towards the front/back, edges whatever, then place a small 12-18" level on the passenger floorboard, then measure what i have in the engine/trans oils, then go home and see the difference. Now i know what is level and how it relates to my driveway - so i don't need to go to lowes ever time i want to see where my fluids are.

But yeah, i've slightly overfilled both engine oil and trans fluid - probably 'better' than under filling, purrs like a kitten. :cowboy:

Ah hah! That makes sense! So you use the level on the passenger floor board going lengthwise front-to-back, right? I'm going to try this tonight. I have a feeling that the hot mark on my dipstick is more like the cold mark because it only seems to run smoother when it's a hell of a lot closer to that hot mark when the engine is cold.

I do have a feeling that I probably damaged the transmission in this whole ordeal and this might have been the straw to break the camel's back. I got lucky when I didn't do any noticeable long-term damage after doing my first oil change on the truck 4 years ago. I managed to pull the ol' drain the ATF instead of the oil move, but I got extra points for adding not realizing it before I added the new 4.5 qts of oil, and drove around the block being down an ATF pan's worth of ATF. What a learning experience that was! (oh but don't worry, it wasn't over because even after realizing the mistake and pulling my oil drain plug, I Exxon Valdez'd because I forgot I had 10 qts of oil coming out of my engine into a little 5 qt oil drain pan)

 

[jgue467]

Ah hah! That makes sense! So you use the level on the passenger floor board going lengthwise front-to-back, right?

yeah, might try it both ways - front to back and sideways - just to make sure the surface ur on is level.

Getting the trans to the 'hot' level takes quite a while in my neck of the woods (like 45 minutes), probably longer in CO right now, so don't assume its hot after 10 miles.

Funny story on the trans/engine oil draining. My only funny came while changing the oil on my polaris atv after having had a little too much to drink. I drained the oil and added new oil (2 quarts of nice and pricey synth) in Before putting the oil plug back in. haha...Hope your luck continues!

 

[19963.4lsr5]

With a warmed up trans I get 4qt out. So I don't even bother measuring anymore with the stupid dipstick.

The drain plug with metal gasket from dealer is cheep. I mean real cheep. Like 6 dollars. EBay was selling same thing anywhere from 10-20 dollars. My bolt was f'd up when I bought the 97. Easy fix.

 

[kball]

I don't use the cold mark on the dipstick anymore. I don't think the fluid expands as much as the dipstick implies. If the trans is cold I fill to the bottom of the hot mark, if hot, to the top of the hot mark.

 

[atalarico]

I hate to resurrect this, but it's related...

I think I really fall into that category of my transmission is so old and worked fine that I shouldn't have messed with it.

Ever since stopping the drain plug up, I still have a leak at what looks to be where the bell housing connects. There is always a little drop waiting to drip off of it after I park at a destination. I have to add about a third of a quart of Dex III ATF every week, or else it slips in low gears. I can definitely smell burning oil (more than the small amount that occasionally burns from my leaky valve cover gaskets).

What should I do about this? I don't have the tools or garage space (or experience) to drop the transmission and replace any of the seals on my own. Should I take it to a trusted Toyota mechanic here in Denver (ATLR), or will the new fluid get thick enough to stop up the leaks? I'm guessing that the new fluid just is too clean and is leaking out of all of the places that the old fluid couldn't. Same thing happens when I change my oil, but the burning oil stops after I notice the color of the oil on the dipstick darken a bit.

I'm really afraid I killed my beloved. I can't afford a new transmission or a new/used Runner in the next year or two. Help?:Cry:

 

[kindred4x]

From my research and experiences it will be hard to find a shop to just replace the seals with that many miles on the tranny. They will suggest a rebuild since they have to drop it and crack it open to replace seals anyways. I am really sorry for your tranny woes and feel your pain, but it does sound like a rebuild or reman is needed. A thicker fluid wont work, nor do they exist. ATF is very refined and the right type is crucial to the transmission.

I will probably get flamed for this saying this, but do some research on how toyota transmissions respond to "stop leak" products ( i have no experience with any of these products, and will never use one) but it might just stop the leaks enough, and long enough while you save up money for a new tranny. It is just a crummy TEMPORARY band aid but might save you some time, but only go that route if you know you are getting a new trans, i wouldn't trust any of that stuff for long term use if i had to go that route.

Also are you checking the fluid level when hot and engine running? I usually get 4 1/2 quarts out of mine when i drain, 2 quarts seem pretty low to me.

 

[atalarico]

From my research and experiences it will be hard to find a shop to just replace the seals with that many miles on the tranny. They will suggest a rebuild since they have to drop it and crack it open to replace seals anyways. I am really sorry for your tranny woes and feel your pain, but it does sound like a rebuild or reman is needed. A thicker fluid wont work, nor do they exist. ATF is very refined and the right type is crucial to the transmission.

I will probably get flamed for this saying this, but do some research on how toyota transmissions respond to "stop leak" products ( i have no experience with any of these products, and will never use one) but it might just stop the leaks enough, and long enough while you save up money for a new tranny. It is just a crummy TEMPORARY band aid but might save you some time, but only go that route if you know you are getting a new trans, i wouldn't trust any of that stuff for long term use if i had to go that route.

Also are you checking the fluid level when hot and engine running? I usually get 4 1/2 quarts out of mine when i drain, 2 quarts seem pretty low to me.

Thanks for the advice, even if it is hard for me to hear.

Isn't a transmission rebuild or reman around $2k? If so, doesn't that get into the question fo "Does it make sense to spend that much on an 18 year old vehicle (no matter how much sentimental value I have with it)?"

Yeah, I actually forgot that rule about checking when the engine is on when I started this whole debacle, so I don't know how much that effected the process. I have been checking with the engine on since, and I think I'm way closer to the desired fluid level.

=(

 

[MONTYMTB]

Isn't a transmission rebuild or reman around $2k? If so, doesn't that get into the question fo "Does it make sense to spend that much on an 18 year old vehicle (no matter how much sentimental value I have with it)?"=(

There was a recent tranny thread where somebody said that Toyota sells a reman for the 3rd Gen. Can't remember how much it was, but I think there was a part number and link to the product page on Camelback. If mine ever went out, I would prob go that route.
As for it making sense, you're going to get many different opinions on that one, but if the rest of the vehicle is good and been maintained as it should've been, I wouldn't have issue with it if it were mine. Ask yourself this: what would you replace it with and how much would it cost you?

 

[kindred4x]

Thanks for the advice, even if it is hard for me to hear.

Isn't a transmission rebuild or reman around $2k? If so, doesn't that get into the question fo "Does it make sense to spend that much on an 18 year old vehicle (no matter how much sentimental value I have with it)?"

Yeah, I actually forgot that rule about checking when the engine is on when I started this whole debacle, so I don't know how much that effected the process. I have been checking with the engine on since, and I think I'm way closer to the desired fluid level.

=(

Again im really sorry, and i feel bad for dropping the news on you. The question of keeping it or getting rid of it is always a hard one, from your sig you got a lot invested in the 4runner so if it was me it would be hard to get rid of it, but i know what you mean. I know its easier said than done but if you do go with replacing it I wouldnt buy a reman or rebuilt from any of the aftermarket parts stores, or other websites, or have a tranny shop rebuild your core. Like what MONTYMTB just posted i would spend the extra and get a genuine toyota rebuild. Not slandering tranny shops, but a GOOD shop will do it right and will cost probably around the same as buying a genuine toyota tranny. With the toyota tranny you know that all parts, seals, and gaskets are genuine oem parts. I am pushing oem because i have learned my lesson with going cheaper routes with parts and oem is just always better most of the time.

Some will tell you to keep it, some will tell you to get rid of it, if it is your only daily driver the decision gets harder. If i was in your shoes and knew the vehicle was in good shape, besides just regular wear and tear maintenance of a older vehicle, and had another means of transportation short term i would keep it. It took me 16 years to finally get my 4runner! I would cry to see it go!

 

[nevada]

I hate to resurrect this, but it's related...

I think I really fall into that category of my transmission is so old and worked fine that I shouldn't have messed with it.

Ever since stopping the drain plug up, I still have a leak at what looks to be where the bell housing connects. There is always a little drop waiting to drip off of it after I park at a destination. I have to add about a third of a quart of Dex III ATF every week, or else it slips in low gears. I can definitely smell burning oil (more than the small amount that occasionally burns from my leaky valve cover gaskets).

What should I do about this? I don't have the tools or garage space (or experience) to drop the transmission and replace any of the seals on my own. Should I take it to a trusted Toyota mechanic here in Denver (ATLR), or will the new fluid get thick enough to stop up the leaks? I'm guessing that the new fluid just is too clean and is leaking out of all of the places that the old fluid couldn't. Same thing happens when I change my oil, but the burning oil stops after I notice the color of the oil on the dipstick darken a bit.

I'm really afraid I killed my beloved. I can't afford a new transmission or a new/used Runner in the next year or two. Help?:Cry:

1/3 quart isn't enough to cause it to slip, unless it is already low.

typically they can be 1-2 quarts low before they start slipping...

 

[Grenvilleter]

I pulled a tranny out of a donor with 400k on it and had my neighbour put it in. Small time tranny shop specialist.

At the time, I questioned my own sanity of spending money to drop in a tranny that had that many miles on it but 1.5 years later it's still pulling strong.
The original failed due to previous owner abuse while towing.

The tranny guy said.. 'Oh.. Asin.. thats what was in one of my Jeep's as well...same guts".
Perhaps you can get one from a yard and if the fluid looks good, there worth 350-500 bucks. My core was worth 350 but I may try someday to repack it myself. The rebuild kit is about 350.00

Whatever you decide, luck to you. We are driving 15+ yr old trucks so these things happen.

 

[cfranck1]

Thanks for the advice, even if it is hard for me to hear.

Isn't a transmission rebuild or reman around $2k? If so, doesn't that get into the question fo "Does it make sense to spend that much on an 18 year old vehicle (no matter how much sentimental value I have with it)?"

Yeah, I actually forgot that rule about checking when the engine is on when I started this whole debacle, so I don't know how much that effected the process. I have been checking with the engine on since, and I think I'm way closer to the desired fluid level.

=(

The question should be is "Can I replace this current vehicle with another, the way it sits for 2k"?? Probably not.
It will be cheaper then a car payment, paying off a auto loan.
Someone else mentioned buying a Toyota reman unit.
That's the way I would go. You know it was rebuilt to Toyota spec's and you most likely will get a factory backed warranty on it.
I know Ford offers 3 years/100k on their reman trans. Toyota probably will be similar?

 

[BrianSD_42]

the drain plug can leak sometimes.

you don't need to buy a while new trans because of a drain plug striping out, you can just buy the pan.

as for the issues with shifting, i would have a professional flush done. But that is just me.