Emergency braking and nose dive?

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Am I the only who does not have an issue with the way a stock 4Runner handles in these regards? I have had my truck just about a year, and only once smashed my brakes. The truck kept straight, the nose sunk maybe 6-7", the DuraTracs let out a howling growl, and that was it. No panic, nothing scary about it. Ironically it happened just 2 weeks ago, so I remember the details well. My fault, I had all 5 windows down, roof open, and was jammin' Iron Maiden w/ my 5 year old son in the back after some of the best burgers in the world (Bud's Bar, Sedalia, CO). Light turned yellow, we were going 50 in a 45. I was going through until I spotted popo at the intersection and decided to stop.

Reading some threads here makes it sound like the 4Runner is ready to crash when you smash the brakes. I guess I have been lucky to not have encountered emergency situations, but these trucks are not meant for radical maneuvers.
 
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Was The Trooper at 22 Acacia Avenue?

Looks like those brakes saved you from having to Die With Your Boots On.

I guess Heaven Can Wait.

... Sorry- Maiden rules!!!
 
I think that the issue with nose dive is mostly depend on the expectations. I don't have issue either but I can see that people coming from vehicles with harder suspension might be surpised at first. I got used to T4R and I don't like for example that my wife's Mazda 3 jumps on every bump on the pavement.
 
No complaints from me either. Mashed the brakes twice, scared the carp outta me, but man she stopped, and straight. Sure glad I wasn't being tailgated at the time.
 
Emergency stops in my KDSS-equipped Trail Edition have been straight, predictable and without excessive nose dive (given the situation of an emergency stop). This is both before and after installing aftermarket suspension. Nonetheless, the nose of any vehicle will dive under extreme braking due to weight transfer.

Unlike the SR5 and Limited Edition, the Trail Edition has extremely beefy sway bars (1-5/8" diameter, I believe) and this does help lessen nose dive, all other things being equal. It seems most complaints about braking nose dive come from SR5 and Limited Edition owners.

No, the 4Runner won't stop like a Lotus Elise or BMW M3. But then neither did my 4700lb Dodge Magnum R/T ... that is until I put $8000 worth of Brembo Gran Turismo brakes and competition sway bars under it!

In assessing the braking system of the 4Runner, let's not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about a 4600lb TRUCK. I would agree that the brakes are marginal ONLY if you are in the habit of approaching red lights at full speed and then pitching out the anchor at a the last second. As for emergency stops .. well, all I'll say is the frequency of those is almost entirely related to driver skill and experience.
 
Please explain how a sway bar can do anything for nose dive.

Taking a corner at speed is like a one-sided nose dive. There's a weight transfer that compresses the suspension on the outside of the turn which also deflects the lower control arm upwards. A good sway bar reduces this lower control arm deflection so the vehicle leans less through a turn.

Now picture hitting the brakes hard ... weight transfers forward, front suspension compresses both sides which means both lower control arms will deflect upwards. That honkin' big Trail Edition sway bar is clamped pretty rigidly to those lower control arms so any nose dive now has to deflect both ends of the sway bar.
 
Now picture hitting the brakes hard ... weight transfers forward, front suspension compresses both sides which means both lower control arms will deflect upwards. That honkin' big Trail Edition sway bar is clamped pretty rigidly to those lower control arms so any nose dive now has to deflect both ends of the sway bar.

Umm, doesn't the swaybar just rotate freely inside the mount bushings? The swaybar isn't clamped to anything on the chassis. When you nose dive, the swaybar just pivots in the bushings as the LCA's compress symmetrically.

I'm no mech guru, but it was like that on my Subaru.
 
Umm, doesn't the swaybar just rotate freely inside the mount bushings? The swaybar isn't clamped to anything on the chassis. When you nose dive, the swaybar just pivots in the bushings as the LCA's compress symmetrically.

I'm no mech guru, but it was like that on my Subaru.

Hmm .. the center section of the sway bar is most certainly clamped to the chassis in two places on every vehicle I've owned.

Perhaps I'm all wet in my understanding of suspension dynamics but the point of the matter is that the Trail Edition demonstrates less nose dive than the SR5 and the Limited Edition. I'm fairly certain all three trim levels use the same spring rates and a number of Limited Edition owners also complain about nose dive so the XREAS system seems to do little to reduce nose dive. But the Trail Edition has more substantial sway bars so it's fairly conclusive to me that big sway bars do help reduce nose dive.

If someone can explain another reason why the Trail Editions exhibit less nose dive, I'm all ears.
 
Umm, doesn't the swaybar just rotate freely inside the mount bushings? The swaybar isn't clamped to anything on the chassis. When you nose dive, the swaybar just pivots in the bushings as the LCA's compress symmetrically.

I'm no mech guru, but it was like that on my Subaru.


This is correct.
 
I have my TE over a month (No KDSS) and it handles fairly well - feels pretty planted for a truck. There's really not much body roll but I do get a bit of nose dive under heavy breaking - I just assume when you have an off-road equipped vehicle you make certain on road sacrifices.

One of the specific complaints - which I have experienced, is what happens when the vehicle finally stops under hard breaking.. If it was a motorcycle - or a sportscar, you would conclude the dampers are broken in the suspension if it behaved the same way.

The weight transfers to the front - the suspension compresses - When you finally stop all that energy in the compressed suspension is released lifting the nose high then back down and back up again - and literally "bobs" back and forth a few times which I think is what most people are complaining about..
Many people would perceive that as a suspension with really crappy dampening. I've experienced this - but it doesn't really bother me since it's a truck designed for off road and not a sports car so you should expect a suspension with a lot of travel.

You can alleviate the bobbing under hard breaking by lifting and easing off the breaks in the last couple of feet before you come to a stop. So you are gradually taking the energy out of the suspension instead of it releasing all at once when you stop. I've pretty much eliminated the experience this way.
 
Hmm .. the center section of the sway bar is most certainly clamped to the chassis in two places on every vehicle I've owned.

Clamped yes, but free to rotate. You're making it sound like the sway bar is fixed to the chassis, then flexes as the front suspension loads during braking. This is certainly not the case. The swaybar pivots freely within the mounting points on the chassis - so sway bars have nothing to do with nose dive.

Funny on a Automotive tv show that tested the Limited and an SR5 - they mentioned that the Limited has considerably less nose diving during braking due to XREAS. I'll try to find the link.
 
Apologies ... I'll now retract everything I've posted here about beefy front sway bars helping to reduce nose dive.

Apparently a sway bar is nothing more than an axle with 4 bends in it, mounted in rubber or polyurethane bearings.

So just for my own edification, can someone please explain why the TE exhibits less nose dive than the SR5?
 
Apologies ... I'll now retract everything I've posted here about beefy front sway bars helping to reduce nose dive.

Apparently a sway bar is nothing more than an axle with 4 bends in it, mounted in rubber or polyurethane bearings.

So just for my own edification, can someone please explain why the TE exhibits less nose dive than the SR5?

I believe the TE has better tires with a thicker sidewall which reduces the wallowy feel Sr5 owners complain about.. Is it possible the suspensions are dialed in differently too?
 
Apologies ... I'll now retract everything I've posted here about beefy front sway bars helping to reduce nose dive.

Apparently a sway bar is nothing more than an axle with 4 bends in it, mounted in rubber or polyurethane bearings.

So just for my own edification, can someone please explain why the TE exhibits less nose dive than the SR5?

From Thai:
There's been some questions about the XREAS system. So, below is my description of the system and it's purpose:

XREAS shocks are MONO-tube shocks and thus, are high-pressured shocks. They should (in theory) last the life of your 4runner or for a very long time. They are more efficient in damping the ride, but they are significantly firmer than regular low-pressure twin-tube shocks (found on non-XREAS 4runners).

XREAS shocks are cross-linked: left front shock to right rear shock; right front shock to left rear shock. Thus, "X-shaped."

XREAS is a closed-circuit system; thus, you cannot replace just one shock. You also need to replace the other shock that it is connected to.

XREAS is very good for cornering on-road (it's MAIN purpose)...helps to reduce body roll. As you take a corner, the 4runner will rock towards the outside. XREAS senses this and hydraulically pumps more fluid to the outside shocks (by drawing from the inside shocks) in an X-pattern. This helps firm up the outside shocks, and softening the inside shocks. Thus, you have less body roll because the outside shocks are pushing against the body lean.

In off-roading?? XREAS probably won't do much in off-roading. However, because it has MONOtube shocks (high-pressure, quicker reacting), XREAS suspension is more efficient in controlling your 4Runner body motions over bad terrain. Since monotubes are more efficient, you have less chance of shock fading/overheating. HOWEVER, monotubes are more fragile than twin-tube shocks...therefore, if a rock hits it, then it will have a higher chance of damage.

As for lifting your 4runner with the XREAS system, i believe that you do need to replace the shocks if you do a high lift. But this also applies to regular non-XREAS shocks. Remember that when you lift your 4runner, you need longer shocks to cope with the increase articulation. Shocks should NEVER be the limiting factor in wheel articulation...that is what anti-roll bars, bumpstops, and rod links are for.

Hope this helps.

So from this explanation, we can postulate that as the front suspension is loaded from braking forces the fluid is added from the opposite rear shocks, dampening the "nosedive." This in addition to the 20" low profile tires will supress the nosedive condition.

EDIT: I thought you said LE. Disregard.
 
So just for my own edification, can someone please explain why the TE exhibits less nose dive than the SR5?

Could be a compilation of the modifications you have listed in your sig that improve your ride?

For everyone's enjoyment: Sway bars provide torsional resistance when the weight of your vehicle shifts from one side to another, resisting the "lean" of your vehicle. An different spring rate or shock dampening characteristic will change how the vehicle handles in the lateral axis (aka nose dive) assuming weights (and location of weights) remains the same.
 
Maybe the nose dive is a perception thing more than anything. As far as I know nobody has done an empirical test to show the TE has less nose dive than the SR5.

If the TE does actually have less nose dive, my vote is that it's because of the extra drag from the hood scoop.
 
I've had to brake hard once, and it definitely dove and was kind of freaky. I've never had an SUV, and most cars I've driven have stiff suspensions, so I assume it's a normal attribute for SUV's?
 
I believe the TE has better tires with a thicker sidewall which reduces the wallowy feel Sr5 owners complain about.. Is it possible the suspensions are dialed in differently too?

Its not the tires, the TE and SR5 are equipped with the same rubber from the factory (at least they were in 2010). I believe the TE's wheel is wider by half an inch (7.5 vs 7.0 for the SR5), so that may take away a bit of sidewall roll over flex, but I wouldn't think that it would reduce nose dive noticeably.
 
Just sayin.......I'm kind of on pawzitiv's side here. KDSS sway bars are'nt attached the conventional way most people think. They are attached to both LCA's on the front side and controlled by hydraulic actuators instead of free floating at the spindles at the wheel like other 4runners.
Normal sway bars have no affect at all on nose drive and I do agree with that.

KDSS bars are attached to the LCA and never actually disconnect as some seem to think. In Toyota's own play on words"they effectively disconnect" with effectively being the keyword meaning "same effect as" if they were disconnected. In other words the actuator pushes the fat KDSS bar down or up to have the same travel as a skinnier sway bar. When I first worked on one I was looking for how it disconnected too.

KDSS has sensors that control the accumulators and actuators and if the they sense the rear rising, like in an emergency brake situation ,more fluid and pressure will be directed to the front making it stiffer on both sides and thus less nose dive. Same principal as the X-reas only increasing pressure to the front actuator instead of the shocks.

I am in no way 100% sure on this as KDSS is still kind a mystery of what it's sensors are doing but is what I interpreted from this video on KDSS by Toyota. I find it kind of weird that there is only 2 actuators,one in front and one in the rear.Seems like there should be 4 of them.

Bottom line though is better shocks and or firmer springs all but eliminate nose dive across all model lines.

Notice at the 2:13 mark is where it says it dampens on road conditions.Does it possibly dampen the nose dive too? Or is it too sophisicated for my understanding?
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