Toffees
Member
Wow, that's cool. Never used Fuelly before but I'll be using it. Interesting comparisons there. The 5L V8 flex engine from Ford gets good mpg relative to the rest of them, but the little 2.7L V6 mileage is terribly oversold.
Engine /Transmission woefully outdated!
- Thread starter Redsoxx1918
- Start date
Wow, that's cool. Never used Fuelly before but I'll be using it. Interesting comparisons there. The 5L V8 flex engine from Ford gets good mpg relative to the rest of them, but the little 2.7L V6 mileage is terribly oversold.
Jetboy
New member
I don't think Toyota would sell the Land Cruiser with the 8 speed unless they were confident is was very reliable. Even the cheapest base model Hilux in foreign markets has a 6 speed. Even the Chinese version of the Prado has the 3.5L v6 and 6AT. I believe that we literally have the oldest and least efficient engine/transmission in the entire world still sold in a Toyota SUV.
Gecko
New member
Bingo. Considering that the Land Cruiser powertrain is built to withstand 25 years of use before replacement, that 8AT is solid.
The fact is that the 4R should have received the 6AT in 2014 when it was refreshed and if all was right with the world, the 2018 4Runner would have been brand new, body-on-frame with a 300hp V6 and 8AT (and that's being conservative). I have always said this engine is fine -- this transmission is not.
Gecko
New member
Tacoma issues were teething problems with new suppliers and a new plant (not making excuses), and are mostly ironed out now.
Land Cruiser, Highlander, Camry, Sienna and every Lexus have been using 8ATs for a while now with no problems.
Toyota has the hardware to fix this... they just choose not to.
LawnDart
Senior Member
I had a response drafted up that was probably a lot more elegant than what I'm around to write, and I deleted it because "eh I don't need to keep posting." And now I wish I'd posted it. But...
Forums are awesome because they aggregate the opinions of people who are having an issue. It's generally considered that 3 percent of any product yields failures. Make 1000 iphones, 30 are bad, etc.
The internet tends to make it sounds like those 30 people represent the entire customer base. I've seen really unreliable toyotas, and really fantastic fords. I've also heard horror stories about fords as well. Name your brand.
Lets not turn this into another Ford/Toyota debate. The point being is that a lawnmower is more complicated than a push mower. At some point people had to say, "Hey this gas powered mower is a bit more advanced, has a few kinks, etc, but it's better at its job."
Advancing technology is a scary thing, but "reliable" isn't an excuse for lack of progress. Toyota has some of the best engineers in the world, but they have to be challenged by product managers who want to see people go beyond their comfort zones.
Forums are awesome because they aggregate the opinions of people who are having an issue. It's generally considered that 3 percent of any product yields failures. Make 1000 iphones, 30 are bad, etc.
The internet tends to make it sounds like those 30 people represent the entire customer base. I've seen really unreliable toyotas, and really fantastic fords. I've also heard horror stories about fords as well. Name your brand.
Lets not turn this into another Ford/Toyota debate. The point being is that a lawnmower is more complicated than a push mower. At some point people had to say, "Hey this gas powered mower is a bit more advanced, has a few kinks, etc, but it's better at its job."
Advancing technology is a scary thing, but "reliable" isn't an excuse for lack of progress. Toyota has some of the best engineers in the world, but they have to be challenged by product managers who want to see people go beyond their comfort zones.
wfo9
New member
One point about this discussion as far as MPG and the Eco boost engines go. The real world MPG is not very impressive at all. You can see it on fuelly..... if you do the research. the little 2.7 ecoboost in the f150 gets about the same avg MPG as a GM 5.3 v8. The GM v8 also gets considerably better MPG than the 3.5 ecoboost. Small turbo motors are not great with MPG when they have to work hard to make the torque to move the vehicle...They lose a lot of efficiency because the static compression just can't be that high when it has to run so much boost to make good power...
They can put impressive MPG numbers down in certain scenarios (like the EPA test).. but in the real world... they simply don't work very good at all in terms of MPG. They do make decent power though...
The best MPG for a 1/2 ton truck is going to be NA with high compression and cyl decativation or a diesel. The next generation of the GM LS.. will have a revised cylinder deactivation system (Dynamic Skip Fire) that will be about another 15-20% improvement in MPG for light load scenarios and will continue to be the most efficient small truck engine by a long shot, yet still using push rods.... They are about 20 years ahead of Toyota and I can't see how Toyota could ever catch up. And they won't because they don't care much. Can't really blame them since the focus is moving to electric.....
People put old LS motors and trans from 10-15 years ago in 80 series and starting getting ~20 mpg with 35s... That tells you something right there.
They can put impressive MPG numbers down in certain scenarios (like the EPA test).. but in the real world... they simply don't work very good at all in terms of MPG. They do make decent power though...
The best MPG for a 1/2 ton truck is going to be NA with high compression and cyl decativation or a diesel. The next generation of the GM LS.. will have a revised cylinder deactivation system (Dynamic Skip Fire) that will be about another 15-20% improvement in MPG for light load scenarios and will continue to be the most efficient small truck engine by a long shot, yet still using push rods.... They are about 20 years ahead of Toyota and I can't see how Toyota could ever catch up. And they won't because they don't care much. Can't really blame them since the focus is moving to electric.....
People put old LS motors and trans from 10-15 years ago in 80 series and starting getting ~20 mpg with 35s... That tells you something right there.
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Jetboy
New member
In all seriousness - go drive one. I'm not a fan of the interior - no power seats even in a limited?!?! (no height adjustment at all). But the engine/trans combo is great. I put 1,000 miles in one with 34" tires and stock gearing. I would have no problem owning one. It was quieter, smoother, and handled hilly terrain as well or better than my 4runner does. Yeah - it downshifts out of 6th fairly often, but the downshift isn't a 1500rpm jump and the engine is so much better balanced that you don't feel like you're flogging it just to maintain speed. You don't really feel it at all - just watch the tach.
Now that should have been in their sales material followed by 'but freaking rock solid'. I probably would have sold our Jeeps sooner...
Joking aside - I think these vehicles certainly attract a certain kind of buyer. Those that are disappointed aren't 'that buyer', should have done more research maybe or educated themselves more about the engineering and mechanical aspects of the vehicle they were buying rather than it looks cool.
Somebody was knocking Jeeps earlier but we sold a 2000 XJ (4.0L Auto) with 250K on it for 6 grand and a 2000 TJ (4.0L Manual) with 240K on it for 7.5K. Both of those trucks in the 17 yrs we owned them only had basic maintenance thrown at them (oil/filters/rads/brakes) and that is IT. Heck I thought they were increasing in value that last few years LoL.
Anyway - something to be said for tried tested and true which is what attracted me to drop 40+ on this truck. I'm hoping to get another 17yrs of relatively trouble free motoring. I couldn't be happier with the 'dated' engineering some perceive, but I think is the farthest from the truth. To each their own, I've read the exact same kind of threads in the Jeep forums over the years. Every vehicle has their issues and consumer complaints but in my research I think ya get what ya pay for in a 4Runner :tea:
83Mule
New member
Most Jeepers will tell you the straight 4.0 is way better to drive than the 3.8 V-6. MPG isn't everything. IF Toyota can get their 4.0 to get 20 MPG and still drive well I would prefer that over reducing the size and just spinning it faster to make power....that stinks in a Truck IMO. And the Transmission thing...more speeds does not equate to a better driver in all cases. I have 5.3 Express's with a 4 and 6 speed and they get the same MPG within 1/2 and drive so similarly there isn't a real reason for the complexity or expense when the 6 breaks. I suspect it is the V-8 torque making the extra speeds seem useless where a V-6 will benefit by staying closer to the torque peak. Yes, I know Toyota can and WILL get a trans with 6 or 8 speeds in these that will be reliable but it probably won't happen until the makeover. I never buy a Vehicle based on MPG....it is well down the list but of course if I can get more without sacrificing driveability I am all for it. The 3.5 is a disappointment....compare it to the GM 3.6 and even the Dodge 3.6 that are N/A and still make 30 horse on the Toyota. Put revised heads on the 4Runner4.0....dump the 3.5 or put a Turbo on it for the Tacoma.
plasticsnaks
New member
I owned a 2016 3rd gen A/T Tacoma for a year. IMHO, close to the worst performing engine/transmission combo I’ve ever owned! Gas mileage was no better than my 2nd gen Tacoma and actually worse on the highway bucking any wind. Transmission/throttle mapping and gear ratios were horrible! There’s a valid reason why you see so many used 3rd gens for sale and see so many negative reviews regarding the drivetrain.
I owned my 2nd gen Tacoma (1gr) A/T for 9 years...awesome engine/trans combo!.... Im very happy with my 5th gen 4runner as well. I’ll take the old technology 1gr 5sp AT over the “new” Atkinson 6sp auto any day.
IMO,Toyota would be making a huge mistake using the 2gr “Atkinson A/T” combo in the 4runner....
wfo9
New member
Yea, I know about 3 people who had them and hated them....They wanted to love them.. but it simply was not a good truck for what they wanted it to do. These were die hard Toyota fans.....so it has to be pretty bad. Also, they can't handle high angles which is very unusual. I can't get over the fact that Toyota designed a truck engine that can't run properly at angles.... They really opened the door for the competition with that truck. There was so much hope for it... and it not only did not deliver in performance... but disappointed most owners at all levels. Funny thing is most people thought the test drive was OK, but it just got worse and worse....until they had to sell it. Maybe some can be addressed with calibration, but Toyota tends not to fix anything like that ever. The 5th gen is also calibrated very poorly. They just lack in that department.
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LandCruiser
New member
At high elevation, the engine is wheezy and the transmission has always been in desperate need of a highway gear.
I mean I understand the quaintness of having a slow as a glacier Toyota, it brings back memories of old Land Cruisers and 4Runners that were by far the most underpowered and slowest vehicles in their segment and there's something heartwarming about having a slow truck that still somehow manages to get worse fuel economy than V8 pickups.
The real truth is that Toyota still doesn't know if it's a good idea to invest in BOF SUVs and whether it's worthwhile to make competitive engine and transmission choices that aren't evolutions of what I could get in the FJC and 4th gen a decade ago.
All I know is that I don't want the engine and transmission from the Tacoma. They suck.
I mean I understand the quaintness of having a slow as a glacier Toyota, it brings back memories of old Land Cruisers and 4Runners that were by far the most underpowered and slowest vehicles in their segment and there's something heartwarming about having a slow truck that still somehow manages to get worse fuel economy than V8 pickups.
The real truth is that Toyota still doesn't know if it's a good idea to invest in BOF SUVs and whether it's worthwhile to make competitive engine and transmission choices that aren't evolutions of what I could get in the FJC and 4th gen a decade ago.
All I know is that I don't want the engine and transmission from the Tacoma. They suck.
The new trend of 8, 10, 20 speed transmissions is all about fuel economy and nothing more. More gears does not equal a better transmission.
I do agree that pretty much every single Toyota is behind in the newest tech but that is how Toyota works. Their models are designed to be relevant for a decade or more. This can also be blamed on the consumer because they look past the old interior design, poor plastics used, and poor efficiency in order to have excellent reliability.
The current Tundra design is ancient compared to the other brands but they still sell every model they make. So the consumer has a lot to blame for Toyotas lack of updating their models more frequently. This business plan is smart on Toyotas part but I do wish they would upgrade their models more frequently, especially the interiors.
When they finally do come out with their news models in 2019/20/21??? it's going to be interesting what they come up with for sure.
I do agree that pretty much every single Toyota is behind in the newest tech but that is how Toyota works. Their models are designed to be relevant for a decade or more. This can also be blamed on the consumer because they look past the old interior design, poor plastics used, and poor efficiency in order to have excellent reliability.
The current Tundra design is ancient compared to the other brands but they still sell every model they make. So the consumer has a lot to blame for Toyotas lack of updating their models more frequently. This business plan is smart on Toyotas part but I do wish they would upgrade their models more frequently, especially the interiors.
When they finally do come out with their news models in 2019/20/21??? it's going to be interesting what they come up with for sure.
TacoRunn0517
New member
No doubt it does. The stories you hear about the EB would make you feel that way haha. I've seen that there are people who have reached 200K+ miles with the EB engine. I'm curious to know how it was maintaining the truck during that duration...
Mass 4runner
New member
Proven and effective tech is one of the reasons I like the 4runner. I may trade for one of the last 5th gens just to avoid whatever unproven guinea pig tech they foist on us with the 6th gen.
LandCruiser
New member
Everything Toyota screws up is when they put absolute fuel economy over absolute reliability.
philsey
New member
This is exactly what prompted me to buy a 2018. Seeing what Toyota did to the Taco, concerned me re the 6th Gen, and prompted me to look. In reality, I probably should have just kept it but I got a great deal.
This need for new technology amuses me. My 2010 was bulletproof for 8 years, I really liked it. What suited me fine then, suits me now. Just because Ford, or GM, or XX has a turbo or a 10 speed or whatever, changes my opinion not at all. It ain't broke. What someone else does, does not change that nor does it degrade my opinion. There will always be something different, better is subjective.
