Engine /Transmission woefully outdated!

[83Mule]

More torque means you don't ''need'' 10 speeds......6 done well is fine. The Tacoma is a victim of the lack of torque and actually could use an 8 speed to keep it at peak longer. A Truck needs grunt, not HP to feel strong and pull. Sticking a Camry motor in a 4Runner is doom. Put some fresh Heads on the 4.0 or punch the 3.5 out to 4.0 and We should be golden. I don't want mileage at any cost if it compromises the feel of the Truck. CAFE requirements are driving this for Toyota at the expense of the buyer in the Tacoma's case. Canyon and Ranger will eat Toyota's lunch if they don't fix the Engine/Trans in both platforms quickly.:boom:

 

[muellernautique]

How about a 6 speed auto with a V8? Now we're talking.

LS swapped t4r anyone?

 

[native_end]

I think Toyota i is just milking what is left and plans to bow out.

This is hilarious.

Come out to Colorado and see how many T4Rs there are out here. 1 out of every 7-8 cars in Denver are 4Rers.

There is no way Toyota is going to "bow out" and discontinue this vehicle.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW Small turbos provide much better mid RPM power than larger N/A motors.

For example the little 2.0 turbo 8AR in the lexus models has more power through the entire range from 0-3500rpms than the current 4.0L we have. How often are you above 3500rpms?

My first choice would of course be a turbo v6. But I think everyone would be very happy with a 2.5L turbo 4cyl and an 8AT. If I were Toyota - that's what I'd be producing.

If Toyota ever offered the 4cyl 5th gen in any 4x4 configuration - that would probably be about as good as it gets short of a supercharged 1GR. If you added a turbo kit - which are readily available from a bunch of different sources. The power band is fantastic on those engines with only 4-5psi of boost.

 

[wfo9]

This is hilarious.

Come out to Colorado and see how many T4Rs there are out here. 1 out of every 7-8 cars in Denver are 4Rers.

There is no way Toyota is going to "bow out" and discontinue this vehicle.

It's not meant to be hilarious...and I don't think it is that far fetched and was clearly the plan at one point. But the gas prices, political environment in the US and then sales changed that. Unlike the FJc... why kill a platform that has growing sales. Now they are trying to come up with something, but it is a bit late and will most likely be another quick "milk it" iteration when it does come out as the long term viability of the market is really 0.

Same thing with the Tundra. They are being killed in the market on just about every front in terms of capability and features, yet some buyers are still going for the perceived Toyota reliability and simplicity. Can't argue with sales....

But...That can't last when your truck gets 12-15mpg in the real world and the competition has more power and towing capacity and can get double that plus has tons more (pun intended) well thought out features and trims.... And the reliability gap is all but gone.

Now, I'm basically just guessing like the rest of us but my guesses have been right so far about Toyota. I predicted the flop of the Tacoma... All the signs were there... ( I could mainly tell where thing were headed after listening to the chief engineer interview) When you have something good in the works.. you talk about it and let small favorable details leak. This is how you create excitement and market interest. Its the best marketing you can do... When you have nothing or can't make the numbers... you keep quiet and try to get it out the door without impacting the sales of your current offering.

The big difference with Toyota and the domestics is passion. You can't argue that the domestics have passion and excitement in the small truck/SUV lineup (now and coming)
Raptor (they even have a Shelby version)
Zr2 Colorado
Jeep GC Trackhawk
JL Rubicon
Power Wagon
2019 GM Trailboss with inline Diesel
2019 Ford with 3.0 Diesel
Ford Ranger

You can argue some of those are junk... but who can't say that a 700+ hp SUV is passion and that a Truck you can haul ass through the desert at 80+ mph in reliably from the factory is not passion.

Now, lets compare that to TRD appearance packages...

What do you think would happen to 4R sales if GM turned the zr2 Colorado into a SUV. Bronco is just around the corner also.. Can't see how Tundras will keep selling if they don't respond to what GM and Ford are doing in 2019 models. Tacoma is also about to have some more stiff competition.

Just listen to the engineers at these companies talk. They are truck/offroad people who know their stuff. I have yet to hear a single Toyota engineer talk passionately about anything. Granted their may be a language barrier, but I think it relates back to them just not having a good pulse on the US market outside of their design shops in CA. The facelifts only go so far. But I do think Toyota knows how to design aesthetics. I just don't think they have the mechanical engineering passion anymore in this segment.

All opinions and I'm just reading smoke signals.. but time will tell.

 

[johnbt]

Passion? Okay, I have a girlfriend. And a dog for that matter. A vehicle is a vehicle.


"They are truck/offroad people"

But their designs end up being produced by Ford and Chevy with so-so results.

I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see how the market shakes out.

I had lunch today with a fishing buddy and he and his wife went to Northern Virginia a couple of days ago and bought a 2017 Explorer XLT with 7 miles on it. It has cloth seats, a hitch and the usual assortment of nice stuff. (edited to add: I looked at the Ford site. Leather trimmed seats are optional. They got the "Unique cloth seating surfaces")

The sticker was $41k. They paid $28k and change or about $30k otd. I guess Ford made too many of them. That's a heck of a discount.

 

[1engineer]

Now, I'm basically just guessing like the rest of us but my guesses have been right so far about Toyota. I predicted the flop of the Tacoma... All the signs were there...



All opinions and I'm just reading smoke signals.. but time will tell.

You got your smoke signals crossed there Chief. Toyota Tacoma Sales Figures | GCBC

Tacoma a flop? Please.

Let me give you a point to ponder when you speak about passion:

Passion is different for everyone. I can tell you get excited over horsepower and things that go fast. That's you. Believe it or not, some people's passion is for other things. Go fast is not everyone's thing. Some people are passionate about the old brass era cars. Some people like crawler vehicles. Some people just like the way vehicles look, performance be damned.
Some people just like something new. Might be slow, might be ugly but it's new!

Everyone has their opinion, it's just that everyone does not distort fact to match their opinion.

Some like blondes, some like brunettes.

 

[TacoRunn0517]

Toyota US car sales figures

I think some of us forget that Toyota is more than trucks. I don't think the Tundra, e.g., will ever dominate the full-size truck market. Why? It isn't Toyota's focus (at least when you look at their sales' numbers). It doesn't make any sense for any company to dominate EVERY market their in. They've shown their dominance with the Tacoma and several of their compact/sedan vehicles. From how I see it, the 4Runner and, to a lesser extent, the Tundra are more of "niche-esqe" vehicles for Toyota.

 

[MatraBlue]

It's not meant to be hilarious...and I don't think it is that far fetched and was clearly the plan at one point. But the gas prices, political environment in the US and then sales changed that. Unlike the FJc... why kill a platform that has growing sales. Now they are trying to come up with something, but it is a bit late and will most likely be another quick "milk it" iteration when it does come out as the long term viability of the market is really 0.

Same thing with the Tundra. They are being killed in the market on just about every front in terms of capability and features, yet some buyers are still going for the perceived Toyota reliability and simplicity. Can't argue with sales....

But...That can't last when your truck gets 12-15mpg in the real world and the competition has more power and towing capacity and can get double that plus has tons more (pun intended) well thought out features and trims.... And the reliability gap is all but gone.

Now, I'm basically just guessing like the rest of us but my guesses have been right so far about Toyota. I predicted the flop of the Tacoma... All the signs were there... ( I could mainly tell where thing were headed after listening to the chief engineer interview) When you have something good in the works.. you talk about it and let small favorable details leak. This is how you create excitement and market interest. Its the best marketing you can do... When you have nothing or can't make the numbers... you keep quiet and try to get it out the door without impacting the sales of your current offering.

The big difference with Toyota and the domestics is passion. You can't argue that the domestics have passion and excitement in the small truck/SUV lineup (now and coming)
Raptor (they even have a Shelby version)
Zr2 Colorado
Jeep GC Trackhawk
JL Rubicon
Power Wagon
2019 GM Trailboss with inline Diesel
2019 Ford with 3.0 Diesel
Ford Ranger

You can argue some of those are junk... but who can't say that a 700+ hp SUV is passion and that a Truck you can haul ass through the desert at 80+ mph in reliably from the factory is not passion.

Now, lets compare that to TRD appearance packages...

What do you think would happen to 4R sales if GM turned the zr2 Colorado into a SUV. Bronco is just around the corner also.. Can't see how Tundras will keep selling if they don't respond to what GM and Ford are doing in 2019 models. Tacoma is also about to have some more stiff competition.

Just listen to the engineers at these companies talk. They are truck/offroad people who know their stuff. I have yet to hear a single Toyota engineer talk passionately about anything. Granted their may be a language barrier, but I think it relates back to them just not having a good pulse on the US market outside of their design shops in CA. The facelifts only go so far. But I do think Toyota knows how to design aesthetics. I just don't think they have the mechanical engineering passion anymore in this segment.

All opinions and I'm just reading smoke signals.. but time will tell.

Not sure why you continued to pontificate after the last sentence of your first paragraph.

 

[Jetboy]

Don't forget that every Tundra and Tacoma sale is worth 3 F series truck sales in profit margin. Tundra and Tacoma as a combination are more profitable than the entire F series truck line. I don't think Toyota will change much anytime soon considering that those trucks are home runs in terms of profit. Tundra is also the truck that owners keep the longest of any truck. And I assume that is a big reason why buyers will pay more for a Tundra than a comparable Ford truck. If making a profit is your goal - you're better of building tundra and tacoma than F series, Ram, or GM trucks. That's why Toyota can buy Ford today with cash on hand.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're the best product for every buyer. It does mean they'll be around for a while.

 

[wfo9]

You got your smoke signals crossed there Chief. Toyota Tacoma Sales Figures | GCBC

Tacoma a flop? Please.

Let me give you a point to ponder when you speak about passion:

Passion is different for everyone. I can tell you get excited over horsepower and things that go fast. That's you. Believe it or not, some people's passion is for other things. Go fast is not everyone's thing. Some people are passionate about the old brass era cars. Some people like crawler vehicles. Some people just like the way vehicles look, performance be damned.
Some people just like something new. Might be slow, might be ugly but it's new!

Everyone has their opinion, it's just that everyone does not distort fact to match their opinion.

Some like blondes, some like brunettes.

It is hard to argue with sales figures and I said that.... The Tacoma probably meets some peoples needs and desires.

But I know 3 die hard Toyota fans who bought them and sold them and said never again.... To me that is a flop. These are people who had owned Toyota trucks for a long time and really wanted to keep it. Some went back to second gens... There are people in this thread who have done the same....

Sadly the truck market is going to go away. We will all be picked up and carted around by some google or apple branded box if we are around long enough.

But for now, I think it is exciting to see what is hitting the market. It's just that Toyota has nothing so far and I don't understand what the point is in pretending that the platform is not outdated. Outdated does not mean it is junk.. It may meet many of our needs as it obviously gets from point A to point B without much fuss .... But it it is woefully outdated for 2019 and there are no indications of positive change at this point. I think they are milking it. Might be a smart financial move with the future in mind... But I won't be buying a new Toyota truck unless there are some positive changes.

Also, here are the truck sales figures I found for 2016. Does not look too positive for Toyota.... but this is just volume....

 

[Ryan1975]

Just listen to the engineers at these companies talk. They are truck/offroad people who know their stuff. I have yet to hear a single Toyota engineer talk passionately about anything. Granted their may be a language barrier, but I think it relates back to them just not having a good pulse on the US market outside of their design shops in CA. The facelifts only go so far. But I do think Toyota knows how to design aesthetics. I just don't think they have the mechanical engineering passion anymore in this segment.

I'm curious if the move of the headquarters to Plano affects this attitude.

 

[Redsoxx1918]

Gosh I love how defensive everyone here gets over a 16 year old five speed autobox.

It really has nothing to do with the 4runner at all. Most people are just afraid of change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wfo9]

I'm curious if the move of the headquarters to Plano affects this attitude.

Hard to say, but I think those are just sales people...

It's interesting to look at the 4R timeline.


first gen 84-89
second gen 90-95
third gen 96 - 02
fourth gen 03-09
fifth gen 10-19?

And the reality is fourth and fifth are really the same thing. Some good things were dropped from the fourth to the 5th (v8...) and some things were improved (rear diff, atrac, dual vvti for 4.0), but the basics are the same with nothing significant besides minor refinements... Going on two decades here....

 

[83Mule]

I am on my 3rd Express and they have been the same from 02 to 18 and I still don't see another platform I like better for the money. They have made powertrain changes only, yet it still works.......as long as sales don't dive off a cliff Toyota has no rivals to the Runner either so yes, they are able to milk this sucker and make a killer profit. I hope they lighten the 4Runner with aluminum openings, give it torque and better mpg and make it even more adaptable to Off-Roading.....they can leave the excess luxury for the Limited or the Highlander while keeping the ''Truckiness'' for the 4Runner and Tacoma.

 

[T4R2014]

It really has nothing to do with the 4runner at all. Most people are just afraid of change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sales figures do speak though. With that said, these people are the reason Toyota can keep manufacturing a truck for 10 years straight with only facelifts. I'm sure these are the same demographic of people that said that they didn't need a smartphone when the iPhone came out.

 

[cgalloni]

It is hard to argue with sales figures and I said that.... The Tacoma probably meets some peoples needs and desires.

But I know 3 die hard Toyota fans who bought them and sold them and said never again.... To me that is a flop. These are people who had owned Toyota trucks for a long time and really wanted to keep it. Some went back to second gens... There are people in this thread who have done the same....

Sadly the truck market is going to go away. We will all be picked up and carted around by some google or apple branded box if we are around long enough.

But for now, I think it is exciting to see what is hitting the market. It's just that Toyota has nothing so far and I don't understand what the point is in pretending that the platform is not outdated. Outdated does not mean it is junk.. It may meet many of our needs as it obviously gets from point A to point B without much fuss .... But it it is woefully outdated for 2019 and there are no indications of positive change at this point. I think they are milking it. Might be a smart financial move with the future in mind... But I won't be buying a new Toyota truck unless there are some positive changes.

Also, here are the truck sales figures I found for 2016. Does not look too positive for Toyota.... but this is just volume....

I think you are missing the big picture here. You have to look at Toyota as a global company not only US. These trucks are proven in all weather and road conditions, and that is why people buy these trucks. They might not have all the whistles that other options from other brands but many people including me like to spend their money wisely. I rather spend $40k in a truck that is not going to give me headaches than spending the same amount of money on a truck that has all the toys but is 3 times likely to break down in a period of 10 years and not even counting the resale value that we get with toyota vehicles. Being from Latin America you can see land cruisers FJ70 and fj 80 and even FJ 60s that are 30 years old and more and are still functioning perfectly with the same engine. I can't say the same thing about other brands. Australian markets and saudi arabian markets use these trucks in the most harsh conditions and they keep buying them like crazy. Heck I know a Range Rover is beautiful inside and out with all the toys you might need but a friend of mine has one and it has been a pain the ass. It has spend more time at the dealer fixing stuff that breaks that actually driving the vehicle.
So yeah. Toyota keeps selling these "OUTDATED" trucks because they know their core value is reliability not gadgets and to many people this is more important than having a 10 speed tranny or 10 inch screen. My 0.02 cents

 

[TacoRunn0517]

The sales figures do speak though. With that said, these people are the reason Toyota can keep manufacturing a truck for 10 years straight with only facelifts. I'm sure these are the same demographic of people that said that they didn't need a smartphone when the iPhone came out.

Most people don't need a smartphone haha. But when everyone else is communicating one way, you're forced to comply.

 

[MatraBlue]

I think you are missing the big picture here. You have to look at Toyota as a global company not only US. These trucks are proven in all weather and road conditions, and that is why people buy these trucks. They might not have all the whistles that other options from other brands but many people including me like to spend their money wisely. I rather spend $40k in a truck that is not going to give me headaches than spending the same amount of money on a truck that has all the toys but is 3 times likely to break down in a period of 10 years and not even counting the resale value that we get with toyota vehicles. Being from Latin America you can see land cruisers FJ70 and fj 80 and even FJ 60s that are 30 years old and more and are still functioning perfectly with the same engine. I can't say the same thing about other brands. Australian markets and saudi arabian markets use these trucks in the most harsh conditions and they keep buying them like crazy. Heck I know a Range Rover is beautiful inside and out with all the toys you might need but a friend of mine has one and it has been a pain the ass. It has spend more time at the dealer fixing stuff that breaks that actually driving the vehicle.
So yeah. Toyota keeps selling these "OUTDATED" trucks because they know their core value is reliability not gadgets and to many people this is more important than having a 10 speed tranny or 10 inch screen. My 0.02 cents

Exactly!!! Just one more positive testimonial to Toyota owner (sort of) "passion."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.we...became-the-favorite-vehicle-of-terrorists/amp

 

[Ryan1975]

Hard to say, but I think those are just sales people...

Toyota moved almost everything to Texas.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ost-calif.-employees-making-move-to-new-texas