Florida School Shooting

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Not sure I follow what your point is. I helped stand up a new unit and it was about 8mo before we got computers and basic office supplies, a year and half before we got weapons. And that was with higher echelons, parent commands, a budget, and modern technology to help us out. And the Marine Corps was formed by a dude in a bar asking drunk people if they wanted a job. So if your point was because we had ‘armed forces’ created on paper, that they were ready to go and execute 2wks, or even a year and half later, you’re high.

I was not saying that they didn’t want a military. I was saying the founding fathers probably had a good idea about our nations readiness going up against the greatest military at the time, and said, every swinging dick in this country will need to fight if necessary.

I’m sure with all their intelligence and forethought for the future of the country that the forefathers didn’t draw up the declaration and send it off to King George III and then decide, “shit. He’ll probably be pissed when he reads that. We should get an army together just in case he attacks us.”

Does that make sense?
 
Shouldn't the definition of "arms" be what existed at the time the amendment was written? Isn't anything other than that an unfounded interpretation of intent?

So, "arms" haven't evolved since then? We should only be able to protect ourselves with black powder guns against full auto weapons that the military and police own? GTFOH
 
So, "arms" haven't evolved since then? We should only be able to protect ourselves with black powder guns against full auto weapons that the military and police own? GTFOH

see:
We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
 
as long as fascist are arming themselves so are we
https://www.redneckrevolt.org/
https://www.socialistra.org/

Only a brainwashed antifa liberal will condemn law abiding Americans of their 2nd amendment right in one post.... THEN turn around and threaten that his antifa movement is arming themselves with said guns to disarm any supporter of the 2nd Amendment. e60ral has had some pretty worrisome hate filled posts, Im almost certain this is one of those situations that should be reported to someone.



Meanwhile ndcent hasn't had one post in his past 50 that is related to guns at all, just salty trump hate.

There is far too much liberal triggering going on in this thread right now.
 
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On guns, hilarious to see partners of the NRA dropping them - their credit card bank, rental car companies, etc.

Poor NRA and all that Russian money they take.

Thoughts and prayers.
 
Picked me up a new 16" upper, carry handle/sight and 250rds...$500...be prepared.

I grew up watching stuff like THX-1138, Soylent Green and Logan's run, probably twisted me into some nutjob.

:ak472:
 
So, "arms" haven't evolved since then? We should only be able to protect ourselves with black powder guns against full auto weapons that the military and police own? GTFOH

No, the point is that once you acknowledge that it is an interpretation the debate becomes about where the line is drawn. If the intent was to maintain a militia capable of defending itself from the government, does that mean that a citizen has a right to military grade weapons? And if not, then isn't that nullifying the entire point?
 
No, the point is that once you acknowledge that it is an interpretation the debate becomes about where the line is drawn. If the intent was to maintain a militia capable of defending itself from the government, does that mean that a citizen has a right to military grade weapons? And if not, then isn't that nullifying the entire point?

My perspective is that it's a form of compromise already given by law-abiding citizens that is rarely acknowledged. Strictly following the word of 2A we shouldn't need a tax stamp for suppressors, prohibited from owning pre-1986 autos, register for guns in some states, be prohibited from mags over 10 rounds in some areas, outright prohibited from possession, or need to apply concealed weapons permits. As we've learned in the past though, give and inch and the other side takes a mile. That's why the heels are dug in so well on the idea of gun ownership and not accepting additional regulations.

Speaking of militias, there's a reason that concept is not pushed by the left. The last thing the left or even the govt wants is a bunch of like-minded conservatives forming armed organizations and regularly training together. :usa2:
 
My perspective is that it's a form of compromise already given by law-abiding citizens that is rarely acknowledged. Strictly following the word of 2A we shouldn't need a tax stamp for suppressors, prohibited from owning pre-1986 autos, register for guns in some states, be prohibited from mags over 10 rounds in some areas, outright prohibited from possession, or need to apply concealed weapons permits. As we've learned in the past though, give and inch and the other side takes a mile. That's why the heels are dug in so well on the idea of gun ownership and not accepting additional regulations.

Speaking of militias, there's a reason that concept is not pushed by the left. The last thing the left or even the govt wants is a bunch of like-minded conservatives forming armed organizations and regularly training together. :usa2:
Why do people keep offering their interpretation of the 2A like it means something?

It doesn't.

Conservative justices in the supreme court have clearly explained that regulating guns is constitutional.

As soon as everyone is up to speed on that then we can debate what gun regulations we should have. It's in the interest of gun owners to lead this charge, because if they don't the pendulum will swing and we will end up with heavy handed gun laws.

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So can we call for a judges ruling on rights and their potential infringement? We have a right to bear arms. it doesn't say we have a right to bump stocks, strictly speaking that's not a firearm that's an aftermarket stock. it doesn't say we have a right to 60 round magazines, that's not a firearm that's a magazine. it doesn't say we have a right to concealed carry, pretty sure the founding fathers had no concept of such a thing. in my previous post I mentioned "your right to swing your fists ends at another's nose." in regards to firearms yes, we have a right to have them but we also have a responsibility to our fellow man, rights come with responsibility. the greater the freedom the greater the responsibility. expanded background checks, licensing, particularly licensing that comes with training and common sense regulations on things like bump stock in no way shape or form infringe on your rights. I think people are confusing that with minor inconvenience. We as responsible law abiding gun owners have an obligation to hold up our end of the deal. All that said I live beside a state (Massachusetts) that limits magazines to 10, my XD-40 holds 12... you're really gonna light me up over two rounds, stupid. my CX-4 which is a carbine rifle and not a handgun, but it uses a Beretta handgun magazine holds 14... really come on!!! so I am all for an intelligent debate as to where the limit should be... I think 60 is too much but 10 is a little crazy, somewhere in between?

regarding training, the first time I got a conceal carry permit I lived in Virginia, I had to take a two day... or was it a three day class with an instructor, I love it, I learned so much and it made me be better shot as well as a more responsible gun owner, never felt like my rights were being trampled. when I moved to Maine, no such class needed, I actually asked, is this because you have a record of me taking the class in Virginia? no states don't share that information the man said. I thought this was nuts, in NH same deal no training required, well now no nothing required because the state just voted to approve "constitutional carry" talk about solving problems that don't exist. Like it was a big deal for me to go to the local PD and pay 10 bucks for my carry permit once every 4 years... Help help I'm being repressed!!
 
Why do people keep offering their interpretation of the 2A like it means something?

It doesn't.

Conservative justices in the supreme court have clearly explained that regulating guns is constitutional.

As soon as everyone is up to speed on that then we can debate what gun regulations we should have. It's in the interest of gun owners to lead this charge, because if they don't the pendulum will swing and we will end up with heavy handed gun laws.

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The judges are not above the constitution. We have empowered them to allow their interpretation, but that does not mean we have to accept those interpretations as absolute, just as many Christians refuse to accept gay marriage (I don't particularly care, just an example), and just as you refuse to accept my interpretation. Hopefully even you can understand there are certain rights above reproach and our forefathers correctly asserted that the right to self-defense and self-determination is one of them. The supreme court is made of men and is not some divine institution. Swing that pendulum all you want, just remember that the second step in creating new law is enforcing it. Good luck.
 
The judges are not above the constitution. We have empowered them to allow their interpretation, but that does not mean we have to accept those interpretations as absolute, just as many Christians refuse to accept gay marriage (I don't particularly care, just an example), and just as you refuse to accept my interpretation. Hopefully even you can understand there are certain rights above reproach and our forefathers correctly asserted that the right to self-defense and self-determination is one of them. The supreme court is made of men and is not some divine institution. Swing that pendulum all you want, just remember that the second step in creating new law is enforcing it. Good luck.
What I'm saying is that even when conservative, originalists (people who believe that the constitution is not a living document and follow a strict reading) agree that the 2nd amendment is not abaolute, it means that you're not going to suddenly find a bunch of judges who think that the conatitution says you can have whatever gun you want.

The 2nd amendment is not absolute. Gun control is constitutional. This is just fact.

The only worthwhile discussion is what gun control is reasonable, and it should be gun owners who male suggestions

Yes of course understand that the right to protect yourself is an individual right, I've literally posted the only court decision that affirms that like 3 or 4 times so far. Regulating guns does not dissolve that protection, they explicitly say that in the same court decision.

It's not that justices are infallible, but DC v Heller is a well cited opinion based on a lot of contemporaneous writings and is a much stronger argument than random joe schmoe on a message board just having an opinion about what it should mean. That opinion means nothing. The court decisions cites other courts and other writings and carries the weight of the supreme court, their opinion means something.

I also doubt that there is anyone here who actually believes the second amendment is unlimited, so returning to that argument is lazy.

Post what gun regulations you think are reasonable

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So can we call for a judges ruling on rights and their potential infringement? We have a right to bear arms. it doesn't say we have a right to bump stocks, strictly speaking that's not a firearm that's an aftermarket stock. it doesn't say we have a right to 60 round magazines, that's not a firearm that's a magazine. it doesn't say we have a right to concealed carry, pretty sure the founding fathers had no concept of such a thing. in my previous post I mentioned "your right to swing your fists ends at another's nose." in regards to firearms yes, we have a right to have them but we also have a responsibility to our fellow man, rights come with responsibility. the greater the freedom the greater the responsibility. expanded background checks, licensing, particularly licensing that comes with training and common sense regulations on things like bump stock in no way shape or form infringe on your rights. I think people are confusing that with minor inconvenience. We as responsible law abiding gun owners have an obligation to hold up our end of the deal. All that said I live beside a state (Massachusetts) that limits magazines to 10, my XD-40 holds 12... you're really gonna light me up over two rounds, stupid. my CX-4 which is a carbine rifle and not a handgun, but it uses a Beretta handgun magazine holds 14... really come on!!! so I am all for an intelligent debate as to where the limit should be... I think 60 is too much but 10 is a little crazy, somewhere in between?

regarding training, the first time I got a conceal carry permit I lived in Virginia, I had to take a two day... or was it a three day class with an instructor, I love it, I learned so much and it made me be better shot as well as a more responsible gun owner, never felt like my rights were being trampled. when I moved to Maine, no such class needed, I actually asked, is this because you have a record of me taking the class in Virginia? no states don't share that information the man said. I thought this was nuts, in NH same deal no training required, well now no nothing required because the state just voted to approve "constitutional carry" talk about solving problems that don't exist. Like it was a big deal for me to go to the local PD and pay 10 bucks for my carry permit once every 4 years... Help help I'm being repressed!!

That's just it: the vast majority of gun owners are responsible and are not causing these issues. We as a society are not doing enough to prevent these occurrences and are perhaps enabling them (media coverage, lack of enforcement of laws, ignoring red flags, lack of security, parenting failures, overuse of prescriptions, etc). And what you feel is an acceptable "limit" doesn't matter because you don't get to speak on behalf of the millions of responsible individuals that own these apparatus, just as I wouldn't get to set acceptable limits on your free speech or due process.
 
What I'm saying is that even when conservative, originalists (people who believe that the constitution is not a living document and follow a strict reading) agree that the 2nd amendment is not abaolute, it means that you're not going to suddenly find a bunch of judges who think that the conatitution says you can have whatever gun you want.

The 2nd amendment is not absolute. Gun control is constitutional. This is just fact.

The only worthwhile discussion is what gun control is reasonable, and it should be gun owners who male suggestions

Yes of course understand that the right to protect yourself is an individual right, I've literally posted the only court decision that affirms that like 3 or 4 times so far. Regulating guns does not dissolve that protection.

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Correct, the right to self defense is an inalienable right. Our bill of rights sees to it that our right to do so with arms "shall not be infringed." Any judge that fails to follow that, regardless of how much a constitutionalist they portray to be, is failing that amendment and in my eyes is no longer a constitutionalist. That's the great part about our democracy. I get to see things without someone else telling me how I should see it. Liberals should try it once in a while.

And yes, the ability to amend the constitution makes it a living document. But you are not going to get a consensus on arbitrary limits at the federal level. So I think it would be smarter to focus on the things we can impact without attempting to change the constitution (the same points I keep typing above). Instead, for the left its always go straight for the guns, which ultimately fails. These other areas of focus would not be met with as much resistance and would even be supported by gun owners. But that's not the true goal, is it?
 
The broward county sherriffs messed up on so many levels prior to this shooting....Then 4 of them HIDE outside the school while kids are being shot at... makes me sick to my stomach

Complete cowards proceed to go on national tv and tell us that the police are the only ones that should have guns...

Luckily they are not all spineless, this Hero was an off duty officer ran in wearing shorts and t-shirt to try and save those kids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMQ6M7GekMc&feature=youtu.be
 
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Great example of why we shouldn't expect armed teachers to make a difference, and also why we need to get cops out of schools to end the school to prison pipeline

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Correct, the right to self defense is an inalienable right. Our bill of rights sees to it that our right to do so with arms "shall not be infringed." Any judge that fails to follow that, regardless of how much a constitutionalist they portray to be, is failing that amendment and in my eyes is no longer a constitutionalist. That's the great part about our democracy. I get to see things without someone else telling me how I should see it. Liberals should try it once in a while.

And yes, the ability to amend the constitution makes it a living document. But you are not going to get a consensus on arbitrary limits at the federal level. So I think it would be smarter to focus on the things we can impact without attempting to change the constitution (the same points I keep typing above). Instead, for the left its always go straight for the guns, which ultimately fails. These other areas of focus would not be met with as much resistance and would even be supported by gun owners. But that's not the true goal, is it?
You don't need to change the constitution, there is no serious support for a constitutional amendment. We can pass gun control without needing an amendment, gun control is constitutional.

Since gun control is constitutional, what gun control should we have?

Or, alternatively, if you believe the 2nd amendment is absolute explain why, because I doubt anyone here actually believes that

And since we all agree that the second amendment is not absolute, returning to that argument is lazy.

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The broward county sherriffs messed up on so many levels prior to this shooting....Then 4 of them HIDE outside the school while kids are being shot at... makes me sick to my stomach

Complete cowards proceed to go on national tv and tell us that the police are the only ones that should have guns...

Luckily they are not all spineless, this Hero was an off duty officer ran in wearing shorts and t-shirt to try and save those kids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMQ6M7GekMc&feature=youtu.be



Good thing we have you to provide expert commentary on human behavior and how/why things went down as they did in a horrendous situation none of us were in. Dirtbag.

Cowardice and spinelessness runs in spades as it spills out of the Oval Office.




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Good thing we have you to provide expert commentary on human behavior and how/why things went down as they did in a horrendous situation none of us were in. Dirtbag.

Cowardice and spinelessness runs in spades as it spills out of the Oval Office.




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They are obviously just a troll, ignore them

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They are obviously just a troll, ignore them

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Ah......little girls still living with their mommies hiding behind a keyboard. Got it. Will lay off the young kids.


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