For those that have played with your toe

[DaMonkey]

& if you have a wider than stock tread width >10” and tire pressure adjusted for flat contact patch...

What have you found for how it feels on the street?

Zero toe seems to be best feel for general driving around and prob best tire wear. Definitely feels better around bends at speed.

Little toe in feels a bit more stable high speed braking and more stable hwy lines (although zero toe is not offensive on hwy). This is even as little as 1/8” toe in.

Toe-in just generally don’t like it. My preference is zero toe, and wouldn’t mind finding that sure handed (or no hands necessary) braking.

2” lift with the 6112 bilstein and stock weight truck. Front end and bushings are tight. Rack bushings was my last move hoping everything comes together. I was able to get just over 2* caster. Maybe more ca$ter would help zero toe braking?

Bumps and dips feel stable either way. With lift, tie rods drop about 2” to spindle so they were appropriately flat when stock and they must be lengthening (toe in) on brake dip. There is room to put a heim tie rod on top of the spindle mount and tie rod would be flat again. Sounds like right thing to do in the world of bump steer, but I’d lose the extra toe in on brake dip and maybe the whole package is a step in the wrong direction. Tempted, but interested if anyone been down this path?

 

[19963.4lsr5]

For me with the stock tires the toe was good but driving was bad on road groves and tire ruts. The issue for me was the upper balljoint was front too far (forget if it’s caster or camber) like it was on its tippy toes while driving. Flighty steering is what I had. Adjusting the lower control arm to even out the weight on both of the lower control arm bushings brought the bad steering to heel.


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[Bad Luck]

The change in toe during suspension compression or extension is minimal because the tire travels in an arc similar to the tie rod due to the upper and lower control arms. The arcs are different due to the location of the pivots in comparison to the centerline of the vehicle, but the difference is minimal. Bump steer as you’re referring to occurs mostly in solid front axle vehicles with track bars that are improperly located. Also, most vehicle manufacturers specify either a little toe in (+) or toe out (-) to take any slack out of the steering components themselves by putting a slight force on the steering components.

 

[Mudeprived]

I have always used 1/8" toe-in. It tracks straight on the crowned roads of PA. Zero toe would have it pulling to the right.

I have also had very minimal tire wear with 1/8", to the point where I am replacing tires due to age (cracking) rather than worn tread.

What's your method of aligning these 4runners yourself?

 

[DaMonkey]

The change in toe during suspension compression or extension is minimal because the tire travels in an arc similar to the tie rod due to the upper and lower control arms. The arcs are different due to the location of the pivots in comparison to the centerline of the vehicle, but the difference is minimal. Bump steer as you’re referring to occurs mostly in solid front axle vehicles with track bars that are improperly located. Also, most vehicle manufacturers specify either a little toe in (+) or toe out (-) to take any slack out of the steering components themselves by putting a slight force on the steering components.

Got it. That sort of hit me when I thought more about my comment that tie rod would lengthen on compression. So do the control arms, they work together. Thx

 

[DaMonkey]

I have always used 1/8" toe-in. It tracks straight on the crowned roads of PA. Zero toe would have it pulling to the right.

I have also had very minimal tire wear with 1/8", to the point where I am replacing tires due to age (cracking) rather than worn tread.

What's your method of aligning these 4runners yourself?

Good care of your tires will go a long way lol. Interesting comment, thanks.

Toe I can set very fast just with my fishing pole.

My rear track width is about 5/8" wider in back and it's centered pretty well with panhard correction. I grab my fishing pole, set the hook into the rear center of a back tire, wrap line around and string the line along the hub center up to the front. Drape the fishing line over a jack stand at hub height, weight of rod tip keeps it taught. The line starts off the outside edge of rear tire, and in front, keep it 3/16" away from front tire and make sure it's not touching anything. Right away you can see what it's doing vs the tire, but I measure with calipers against the rim edge and adjust for the difference of rim diameter vs outer tire diameter. Do the other side, and net them.

For camber (& caster), I have an aluminum piece of angle iron cut to length that sits on rim edge and a digital angle gauge fastened to it. Bungee that vertically onto rim. I shim under tires for flat plane and the front shims work well as slip sheets when rotating steering for caster.

 

[DaMonkey]

The missing piece of the puzzle was steering shaft. Tacked the slip joint (yeah I know) and shimmed the tilt uniball.

Laser precision now. Love it love it love it. Had no idea that was an issue with these. This forum got me sure footed again. :rockon:

 

[IBallEngineer]

Good care of your tires will go a long way lol. Interesting comment, thanks.

Toe I can set very fast just with my fishing pole.

My rear track width is about 5/8" wider in back and it's centered pretty well with panhard correction. I grab my fishing pole, set the hook into the rear center of a back tire, wrap line around and string the line along the hub center up to the front. Drape the fishing line over a jack stand at hub height, weight of rod tip keeps it taught. The line starts off the outside edge of rear tire, and in front, keep it 3/16" away from front tire and make sure it's not touching anything. Right away you can see what it's doing vs the tire, but I measure with calipers against the rim edge and adjust for the difference of rim diameter vs outer tire diameter. Do the other side, and net them.

For camber (& caster), I have an aluminum piece of angle iron cut to length that sits on rim edge and a digital angle gauge fastened to it. Bungee that vertically onto rim. I shim under tires for flat plane and the front shims work well as slip sheets when rotating steering for caster.

Sounds like you have done a lot of work to be able to do your own alignments! I do have some doubts, please don't take it personally, but I've trained many "alignment techs" who really don't know what they are doing so I'm always skeptical. If you are 5/8" wider at the rear, why are you not using 5/16" stand off at the front? Also, I'm assuming you are keeping the front wheel centered some how then adjusting individual toe, so you are using the "slip sheets" for toe changes also. I'd like to know, for your sake not mine, how you are adjusting for diameter? If "zero" toe was the only setting you ever wanted it wouldn't really matter of course, but the fractional measurement of toe is highly dependent on diameter.

Lastly since you have most of the technique worked out to measure so well, have you checked the toe on the rear axle? Thrust angle and rear toe would change your front readings, not that you can change either very easily, but it helps to start on correct footing.

My opinion, find some used turntables, they will make your readings much more accurate. And for my money, toe in.

 

[rightyouareken]

I can't be the only person who read this post title and thought someone posted in the wrong forum, right?

:lol:

 

[DaMonkey]

Sounds like you have done a lot of work to be able to do your own alignments! I do have some doubts, please don't take it personally, but I've trained many "alignment techs" who really don't know what they are doing so I'm always skeptical. If you are 5/8" wider at the rear, why are you not using 5/16" stand off at the front? Also, I'm assuming you are keeping the front wheel centered some how then adjusting individual toe, so you are using the "slip sheets" for toe changes also. I'd like to know, for your sake not mine, how you are adjusting for diameter? If "zero" toe was the only setting you ever wanted it wouldn't really matter of course, but the fractional measurement of toe is highly dependent on diameter.

Lastly since you have most of the technique worked out to measure so well, have you checked the toe on the rear axle? Thrust angle and rear toe would change your front readings, not that you can change either very easily, but it helps to start on correct footing.

My opinion, find some used turntables, they will make your readings much more accurate. And for my money, toe in.

Your doubts are not taken personally at all, you should have doubts. I'm doing my alignment in my driveway lol. I try to learn all I can, and I'm still learning after doing my own alignments for 25 years. I'm able to get tight measurements and I can repeat them so that works for me.

You are right, offset each side is 5/16, not 3/16. Fat fingered.

Rim lip width for me is 16" and tire diameter is about 32" or just shy, so I double front rim measurements to get toe.

As for centering the steering wheel, I just roll up to my spot with a straight steering wheel in hand. But ultimately I make my steering wheel centering adjustments from how it's pointed while driving. Even with a perfect alignment the steering wheel center can change just rotating the tires and I can't stand a steering wheel that doesn't point straight.

When I only do toe, no I don't use slip sheets. Between every adjustment, I back up truck and pull straight forward again. Turntables would be nice to have.

After I fixed my steering shaft, I'm at 1/16" toe in, and I haven't tried neutral or more toe. I don't think I need to, it feels great.

 

[DaMonkey]

I can't be the only person who read this post title and thought someone posted in the wrong forum, right?

:lol:

Lol. Perhaps I get too particular for a truck but I found the issue.

 

[cblock406]

Glad you solved the steering issue!

 

[DaMonkey]

Glad you solved the steering issue!

No doubt. Like you, it was an irritating mystery until I read about the tilt steering ball. As soon as I read it I had that ah ha moment and it was an easy fix.