Front end 4wd issues. SAS lookin better every second.

[cordrayj1]

so. went to Uwharrie this weekend. it was def awesome. until something inside the front differential blew of course. why so weak? I just cant figure out why people (including myself) would subject themselves to such high repair costs for a weak A$$ front 4wd system. I was being careful not to rev high and everything. then POP! F$&^. thank god for winches. what a long and depressing weekend. so its at the shop. mechanic says best case senario cv axle stud broke off inside diff. other best case is that its a spider gear thats broke. im to the point that i dont even want to put this thing in 4wd if its gonna freakin break everytime. so frustrating. what does a SAS entail?

 

[topdown4runner]

it entails a LOT of work, but if you have the patience and $$$, go for it!

 

[brian2sun]

I've had 3 IFS Toyotas over ~17 years and have never had any CV/diff issues. You just gotta be easier on them than a solid axle. Either there was something ready to go out in your diff and it finally let loose, or you hammered it too hard. In most cases, things usually break up there from getting on the gas really hard to make it over something and then the tires get caught in a crack and come to a sudden stop. The other way things break is if your turned to one side and hit the gas suddenly.

You definitely have to be more careful with IFS, but if you know how to finesse it, it won't break so easy. If you're going to do an SAS, there is a ton of reding you need to do. Get on ttora.com and look at the axle swap section.

 

[cordrayj1]

well if i keep the ifs i think im gonna put manual hubs on it so that i wont be slingin fluid for 5 hours on the way home after wheelin. if i had those i prob wouldnt be freakin so bad now cause my rig would be drivable. good news is . . .talked to my mechanic not too long ago and he was able to drill and tap the piece of the shaft that broke inside the diff....so he didnt even have to take it out. he thought it might have stripped a gear but NO thank god. i think the fact that i still have an open diff in the rear prob has somethin to do with the "intensity" and stress that the front endures. where im spinnin now, i could have been crawlin ALOT slower with my rears locked. i guess hindsight is 20/20 tho. locker next. then, i will tackle that beast of a trail again with the locker, and will def be gettin a winch for the ole ARB prior to returning in march.

and BTW, i was trying to be gentle because of all the horror stories ive heard about IFS and busted Sh!t from rocks.

 

[brian2sun]

yeah, the rear locker will help you crawl so much better and I agree that will take stress off your front. I have to be extra careful with my CVs with a locker up front. In fact the d-bags that intalled the front locker broke a CV just testing it in the parking lot (or so I suspect). I got them to pay for it, but they never did admit it was them, but I know it wasn't me because I hadn't even used 4x4 or the locker yet at that time. Some aftrmarket CVs have bad reptations also like Advance Autos. Seems like many people have issues with them. Napas have a lifetime warranty and people don't seem to have many issues with them.

 

[Pikeman]

Glad to hear it worked out to be not so bad for you. There are quite a few of us here in So Cal that wheel pretty hard and have only had one person break a CV so far. I tear boots all the time though. I remeber a thread started by one of the CO group on how many CV's have you broken but again they also wheel pretty hard on a regular basis. I will say that the East Coast wheeling is different since you are talking about mud, clay and tree roots with some rocks mixed in. This leads to the spin with sudden stop chances increasing significantly. I also agree a rear locker will help.

 

[theizzardking]

sorry for the hijack, but have we found a solution to torn cv boots? someone suggested steel zip ties used in exhuast applications but i really think there has to be another boot out there we can use....

 

[Big John]

I'm hoping Trail Gears Tacoma SAS kit fits these 4runners. I'd happily offer mine up for the test fit.

 

[steezemcqueen]

do you have the original CV's in there?

 

[brian2sun]

I'm hoping Trail Gears Tacoma SAS kit fits these 4runners. I'd happily offer mine up for the test fit.

It will. The front suspension and chassis are identical between the 1st gen Tacos and 3rd gen 4runners. The only difference I know of is the frame rails stick out further in the front on the 4runners (which has nothing to do with IFS or SFA).

IMO, the TG kit isn't as good as fabbing up your own brackets and using a Wagoneer axle. The TG kit will also cost thousands of dollars for everything you need and still you'd have to buy the diff. When you could just pick up most of what you need from salvage yards and pay hundreds instead, it's really a no brainer IMO to source the parts yourself. I actually won a free TG Rock Assault axle a few months ago and sold it because it still wasn't cost effective to buy all the rest of the TG kit (which you pretty much must buy if you use their axle housing since the pinion angle on their housings would be hard to make work otherwise). It is possible to make anything work, but you must use their proprietary kit or chop off the birfs and reweld them in a better position.

If I did an SAS, I would also do it right and that to me would mean linked/coils not leafs. The TG kit is leafs which aren't bad, but not what I would go for if I was going to dive in and do it. Just my $.02.

 

[AddictedOffroad]

It will. The front suspension and chassis are identical between the 1st gen Tacos and 3rd gen 4runners. The only difference I know of is the frame rails stick out further in the front on the 4runners (which has nothing to do with IFS or SFA).

IMO, the TG kit isn't as good as fabbing up your own brackets and using a Wagoneer axle. The TG kit will also cost thousands of dollars for everything you need and still you'd have to buy the diff. When you could just pick up most of what you need from salvage yards and pay hundreds instead, it's really a no brainer IMO to source the parts yourself. I actually won a free TG Rock Assault axle a few months ago and sold it because it still wasn't cost effective to buy all the rest of the TG kit (which you pretty much must buy if you use their axle housing since the pinion angle on their housings would be hard to make work otherwise). It is possible to make anything work, but you must use their proprietary kit or chop off the birfs and reweld them in a better position.

If I did an SAS, I would also do it right and that to me would mean linked/coils not leafs. The TG kit is leafs which aren't bad, but not what I would go for if I was going to dive in and do it. Just my $.02.

Just an FYI, a Diamond axle is actually cheaper to build than a Waggie D44. Even if the D44 is free.

I would have to disagree on the fabbing it yourself too. I have all the tools to do it, but its not worth my time. When you add it all up I might save a couple hundred bucks overall. (believe me, I've done it). At least with the kit, you get everything at once, and its all designed to work together the same way. No fighting with parts from 100 different vehicles just to build one rig.

I have rigs like this come into my shop constantly. Most of them are a complete mess underneath. If you have the attention to detail, then it will look better, but when it comes to doing it right the first time, I would just use a kit.

 

[brian2sun]

Just an FYI, a Diamond axle is actually cheaper to build than a Waggie D44. Even if the D44 is free.

I would have to disagree on the fabbing it yourself too. I have all the tools to do it, but its not worth my time. When you add it all up I might save a couple hundred bucks overall. (believe me, I've done it). At least with the kit, you get everything at once, and its all designed to work together the same way. No fighting with parts from 100 different vehicles just to build one rig.

I have rigs like this come into my shop constantly. Most of them are a complete mess underneath. If you have the attention to detail, then it will look better, but when it comes to doing it right the first time, I would just use a kit.

I have seen complete Waggy axles for $300-400 with the diff, so that's why I say it would be cheaper. I dnon't know if that was just a fluke, but it doesn't seem like they command a high price for a complete axle. You would know better about fabbing the brackets and how many times it takes to get it right though. I don't think the TG kit is horrible or anything, I just didn't like it for me and I think I could get it done for much cheaper than buying the complete kit from TG. I don't have anything against leafs by any means, but I personally would like to keep it on coils if I did an SAS since it started on coils and the articulation would be better (as you know).

 

[AddictedOffroad]

I have seen complete Waggy axles for $300-400 with the diff, so that's why I say it would be cheaper. I dnon't know if that was just a fluke, but it doesn't seem like they command a high price for a complete axle. You would know better about fabbing the brackets and how many times it takes to get it right though. I don't think the TG kit is horrible or anything, I just didn't like it for me and I think I could get it done for much cheaper than buying the complete kit from TG. I don't have anything against leafs by any means, but I personally would like to keep it on coils if I did an SAS since it started on coils and the articulation would be better (as you know).

Trust me, its a huge misconception that the D44 is cheaper to build.

The issue is that the gears are more expensive, you'll need to swap the carrier for a new one to use with deeper gears. You're stuck with 4.88s since Dana/spicer doesn't have a 5.29. Or you can run mismatched 5.38 gears. Lockers are more expensive. Highsteer alone is around $700 and then you still need to find flat top knuckles to send out to have them tapped for highsteer arms. To get similar strength to Longfields($625), you will have to buy Superior cromoly shafts ($800) and CTM U0joints ($385). Then you'll have to cut and turn the knuckles to rotate the pinion angle to the Tcase with a single case. And, in the end, you have an axle that is marginal in strength with 37s.

So, while on paper the cheaper initial price of the Dana 44 seems okay, in the long run its more expensive to build it for hard core use.

The Diamond can be run with any 3rd member in it(I run 9.5" Land Cruiser 3rds). The pinion angle can be set before welding the knuckle balls in place by Brian @ Diamond axle. And, it can be ordered with any custom width and custom differential offset you may want. Highsteer is around $300. Gears are $135. Install kit is $125, Lockers are cheaper, cromoly shafts are cheaper, etc etc.

I've actually been meaning to put it into a spread sheet so I can show customers when they come into the shop. When you see it on paper, its an easy sell.

 

[LINY4Runner]

My front diff shat out a few spider gears, granted it was mostly driver error- wheelspin followed by sudden traction as someone else mentioned.
But other than that, these diffs aren't really known for being troublesome.

If I can be honest for a second; if you're getting this bent out of shape over a little pop from the front end with an easy fix, I doubt you have the patience necessary to pull off a solid axle swap. Don't mean to be a d!ck, but just being honest.
If you have the money to pay someone to do it for you, then by all means...but don't think that's going to prevent all breakage.

Part of wheeling is breaking parts. It's inevitable. You stand behind a horse long enough, you're gonna get kicked. Just be glad you're not a Jeeper, carrying more spare parts in the back than are on the truck! lol

 

[brian2sun]

I didn't realize the other things you mentioned were so expensive. Good points, I guess if I do a SAS, I better call you 1st and get a Diamond then. Thanks for the info.

 

[LINY4Runner]

If I did an SAS, I would also do it right and that to me would mean linked/coils not leafs. The TG kit is leafs which aren't bad, but not what I would go for if I was going to dive in and do it. Just my $.02.

Exactly. If you're gonna do all that work, why give the front suspension 20+ year old technology? Leafs are garbage.

 

[cordrayj1]

do you have the original CV's in there?

definitely not. ive gone through a few sets.

 

[cordrayj1]

everyone should take a look at this....even if they dont plan on a SAS. its pretty freakin sweet what this dude did.

1998 4runner solid axle swap and rear leaf conversion

 

[cordrayj1]

It will. The front suspension and chassis are identical between the 1st gen Tacos and 3rd gen 4runners. The only difference I know of is the frame rails stick out further in the front on the 4runners (which has nothing to do with IFS or SFA).

IMO, the TG kit isn't as good as fabbing up your own brackets and using a Wagoneer axle. The TG kit will also cost thousands of dollars for everything you need and still you'd have to buy the diff. When you could just pick up most of what you need from salvage yards and pay hundreds instead, it's really a no brainer IMO to source the parts yourself. I actually won a free TG Rock Assault axle a few months ago and sold it because it still wasn't cost effective to buy all the rest of the TG kit (which you pretty much must buy if you use their axle housing since the pinion angle on their housings would be hard to make work otherwise). It is possible to make anything work, but you must use their proprietary kit or chop off the birfs and reweld them in a better position.

If I did an SAS, I would also do it right and that to me would mean linked/coils not leafs. The TG kit is leafs which aren't bad, but not what I would go for if I was going to dive in and do it. Just my $.02.

I was lookin at SAS's yesterday and I also would go with the coil-over system if i were to do that.

 

[AddictedOffroad]

The issue with the leafs on our rigs is that they just sit too damn tall. Now, a custom, reverse eye spring would lower it enough to make it manageable. IMHO, I think that a leaf spring setup will work just as good as a coilover/linked design offroad and on the street. Its not nearly as bling, but it will work just as good IMHO.

With that said, I obviously chose the linked route. Mainly because it was the only way to keep the ride height where I wanted it and still accomplish everything i wanted to do. My frame height is 22.5" on 37s. My old 2000 Sport with light duty OME coils and a 3/4" spacer in front sat at 19.5" with only 33s on it. So, based on those measurements, I am only running 4" of lift to clear the 37s I have now. I did stretch the front forward 2.5-3" as well though.