General Motors, Do They Deserve Failure?

[ChildrenOfBodom]

SV_Dude and other moderators, I request kindly that you please do not moderate this thread. I prefer to take care of it.

Keep it civil and clean. Trolling will receive a temporary ban.

A quick link to the rules in case you'd like to define trolling: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/general-discussions/137212-general-forum-rules-please-read.html
DEBATE:

I was on GMinsidenews.com reading up about the recalls on the Cobalt and Ion which have killed 300+ people.

This thread was posted in 2009, prior to the current recalls in question.

Today, GM face a large problem... one where many would be happier to see them fail than continue. Personally, I find it embarrassing as an American auto enthusiast to be represented by such a poorly managed company. Many GM owners are ditching their cars as they lose trust for the companies that were supposed to be thinking about them. I find it disturbing that I have found myself behind the wheel of a listed recalled GM vehicle in the past, my own life at stake as those 300+ who died. I only hope that no more victims will succumb to the fate of death in their recalled GM vehicle.

Let's discuss GM and whether or not you think they deserve failure. Logic and honesty are the best possible arguments!

 

[bofa]

I'm not sure there's a black and white answer. It's easy to be disturbed but GM's past financial issues and now their apparent disregard for its customers... however condemning GM as a whole would mean condemning a whole lot of people that had no part in the decisions that landed them in bankruptcy or these safety issues, not to mention 200K+ jobs worldwide (and admittedly, I'm more concerned about US jobs) plus the jobs in related industries and supply lines.

I think the focus needs to be on the decision-makers and how to right the ship with the correct leadership. I hear Alan Mulally may be available soon. :thumb:

 

[ChildrenOfBodom]

I second a change in leadership!

Do I want them to fail? Not entirely, I agree it would be huge problem for the country and those who have jobs with GM. So many jobs in the control of what seem like unfit businessmen... I certainly think they deserve to fail for such mediocre business practices.

A new leadership would be an easy answer to a lot of political and economic issues... if only it were that easy. Alan Mulally seems a promising nominee for GM.

 

[LandCruiser]

As long as the Democrats are desperate for union votes, we will never rid ourselves of unsuccessful car manufacturers in this country. The entire GM and Chrysler bailout was a desperate bid to get the UAW's votes.

 

[jgue467]

Worth far more alive than dead

No, we cannot let them fail, that is why we bailed them out recently. Ultimately, we need them for their war manufacturing capacity, Period, End of Story.

Now, do you want to spank/punish them for the key/cobalt issue, Damn Yes. There s/b a hefty fine, hefty/vigorous review of every safety issue they have going on now and in the future. Yes, they've under "new management" that is all fine and dandy, but how do we ensure the epic failure does not repeat at the corporate and/or government level? Document and stick to successful repeated processes. That is what toyo does and everytime they cut a corner guess what happens to them too? No one is innocent of this. We all need to heed this warning. Ok I'm done, next.... :wave:

 

[SV_Dude]

What makes them so special? How many smaller companies have gone under due to poor management, yet the gov did nothing for them. Our tax dollars shouldn't be used to pay for poor business practices while ceo's and others get multi million dollar annual bonuses. They should sink if they cannot survive without the gov bailouts. If they fall then another company will rise. That's good ol healthy competition.

As for the military side of the house, they can sell off their contracts and equipment to other companies so it won't have an affect on the production of military equipment.

 

[SKRS1]

I personally think they need to get punished but I would not go as far as to want them to fail, maybe the government should force them to buy back the cobalts instead of the mediocre $500 dollar voucher towards a new GM, or at least increase the value of that voucher. Also whomever is in charge should get fired or the people responsible of ignoring this known issue for years.

 

[TOY2G]

GM hold very little (percentage wise) military contract. So the impact would be negligible. OshKosh, CAT, S&S produce more than 60% of military vehicles.

But making them buy back the defective vehicles would do what exactly? Make them ask the Govt for more money to survive.

They should have gone under, and I would have felt pretty good about it had it not been for the job loss. They practice poor business (by they I am referring to upper management) and in the end the workers get laid off, the quality goes down, tax payers bail them out and they buy another Italian yacht.

The big three have bullied smaller auto makers out of business for years, and even today they spend a lot of time pointing a crooked finger at Toyota and other competitors over recalls, not one of which have claimed 300 lives.

Should they go down. I think all bullies should go down, to include the union. I don't think we should have bailed them out, and I don't think they should be able to walk away from this recall.

We should have taken the money for the bailouts and poured it into other viable companies, used it to expand companies with good values and business practice and help the GM employees migrate to these other companies.

I know, I live in a dream world, but GM is a cancer to America and no matter how much I like several of their vehicle offerings, cancer should be removed.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

do they deserve failure? years and years of subpar quality vehicles with subpar reliability and subpar craftsmanship with you guessed it, subpar service is usually a recipe for failure, but alas the government stepped in.

does GM deserve failure? as an automaker maybe not, however their leadership deserves failure. they sell a ton of cars, have great R&D at their fingertips, and great minds working their accounting and finance departments, but in spite of themselves somehow keep messing it up, whether it be with the recalls, the safety of the vehicles, or just mismanaging money.

for the sake of their employees, i hope they never fail. imagine a corporation of their size going under? the lay offs would be outrageous. they may deserve it, but i hope they never fail, if nothing else for the sake of their workers.

 

[SV_Dude]

Their workers will find work elsewhere. Allowing a failing company to keep feeding off of the government (our tax dollars) is no different than allowing the leeches to feed off of welfare (our tax dollars) their entire life because of their poor decision making skills. I'm sorry to say this but life is and always has been survival of the fittest. There is no cure to natural selection regardless of the form that is taking place.

What worsens our economy the most? Funding a losing company or employees finding work elsewhere?

Let them sink and make another chapter in the history books.

 

[ChildrenOfBodom]

I personally think they need to get punished but I would not go as far as to want them to fail, maybe the government should force them to buy back the cobalts instead of the mediocre $500 dollar voucher towards a new GM, or at least increase the value of that voucher. Also whomever is in charge should get fired or the people responsible of ignoring this known issue for years.

Seriously! $500 voucher towards a new car? That's a terrible deal, they only profit a little less for the sale, in exchange for having knowingly jeopardized your life. Buy back the cars at full retail, just like Toyota did with the Tacoma frame rust problem.

GM hold very little (percentage wise) military contract. So the impact would be negligible. OshKosh, CAT, S&S produce more than 60% of military vehicles.

But making them buy back the defective vehicles would do what exactly? Make them ask the Govt for more money to survive.

They should have gone under, and I would have felt pretty good about it had it not been for the job loss. They practice poor business (by they I am referring to upper management) and in the end the workers get laid off, the quality goes down, tax payers bail them out and they buy another Italian yacht.

The big three have bullied smaller auto makers out of business for years, and even today they spend a lot of time pointing a crooked finger at Toyota and other competitors over recalls, not one of which have claimed 300 lives.

Should they go down. I think all bullies should go down, to include the union. I don't think we should have bailed them out, and I don't think they should be able to walk away from this recall.

We should have taken the money for the bailouts and poured it into other viable companies, used it to expand companies with good values and business practice and help the GM employees migrate to these other companies.

I know, I live in a dream world, but GM is a cancer to America and no matter how much I like several of their vehicle offerings, cancer should be removed.

Agreed. Your concise post is well written and rational. Your dream world is one I would love to have seen as a reality.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

Their workers will find work elsewhere. Allowing a failing company to keep feeding off of the government (our tax dollars) is no different than allowing the leeches to feed off of welfare (our tax dollars) their entire life because of their poor decision making skills. I'm sorry to say this but life is and always has been survival of the fittest. There is no cure to natural selection regardless of the form that is taking place.

What worsens our economy the most? Funding a losing company or employees finding work elsewhere?

Let them sink and make another chapter in the history books.

my issue is that the workers shouldn't suffer because of decisions that management has made that proved detrimental to the corporation as a whole

 

[02SE]

my issue is that the workers shouldn't suffer because of decisions that management has made that proved detrimental to the corporation as a whole

Here's a little reality check; Life is hard, and there are no guarantees except death and taxes.

There are lots of reasons why Businesses fail.

Products that aren't good enough to command a market share that keeps the company in the black.
Bad management decisions.
Unionized workers bleeding a company dry with demands that are not sustainable long-term.
The latest in overbearing Government regulations that might be the final straw which breaks a companies back.
Customers that no longer need or desire a once-popular product or service.
etc., etc.

If a company can't survive without handouts from the Government on the backs of taxpayers, then it obviously isn't a viable business model.


Bottom line: Don't depend on others for your livelihood. If you do work for someone else, make sure your abilities are invaluable to them.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

Here's a little reality check; Life is hard, and there are no guarantees except death and taxes.

There are lots of reasons why Businesses fail.

Products that aren't good enough to command a market share that keeps the company in the black.
Bad management decisions.
Unionized workers bleeding a company dry with demands that are not sustainable long-term.
The latest in overbearing Government regulations that might be the final straw which breaks a companies back.
Customers that no longer need or desire a once-popular product or service.
etc., etc.

If a company can't survive without handouts from the Government on the backs of taxpayers, then it obviously isn't a viable business model.


Bottom line: Don't depend on others for your livelihood. If you do work for someone else, make sure your abilities are invaluable to them.

I manage a business for a living, i know what causes them to fail and succeed. I never said once that GM should be getting bailed out, and i did say multiple times that management is screwing the employees, who in turn are going to demand less work for more money, while they get replaced with robots. not to mention GM hasn't been the standard for quality or reliability since, ever.

 

[02SE]

I manage a business for a living, i know what causes them to fail and succeed. I never said once that GM should be getting bailed out, and i did say multiple times that management is screwing the employees, who in turn are going to demand less work for more money, while they get replaced with robots. not to mention GM hasn't been the standard for quality or reliability since, ever.

I owned my own successful business.

How do you know that the employees are being screwed by management? Maybe the employees are screwing themselves.

Just as an example, I know of two businesses that failed in large part due to the union employees work ethic and demands rendering the businesses uncompetitive.

I used to do business with both companies, and witnessed first hand employees doing just about anything but the job they were paid to do.

One place I always saw a group of "employees" in the break room, watching ball games. I would comment on the fact that it was great they could relax while on break, and they would always say "We aren't on break, we're on the clock". I would say "Aren't you worried about losing your jobs"? the answer was always "No, our Union will protect us".

My point is; it's not always the big, bad management that is at fault.

 

[Quatre Coureur]

It is sad to see what has become of GM. I grew up a 'Chevy' guy. My first car was a '69 Camaro SS350. I street raced that car all over SoCal... Back then they made great cars. But even then they had hazardous vehicles. Starting in '73 their pickups came equipped with side saddle tanks which would explode if u got T-boned. Hundreds of ppl were killed or severely injured. But GM kept making them that way up until '91 I believe. They paid out millions in fines but, to them, it was part of the cost of doing business. If ppl are being killed then GM needs to pay. A LOT! That's the only thing that will get their attention. Massive fines, along with a trust fund for the victims, to cover their ongoing expenses. I don't want to see GM go down. Too many families would be hurt financially. They must be held accountable.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

I owned my own successful business.

How do you know that the employees are being screwed by management? Maybe the employees are screwing themselves.

Just as an example, I know of two businesses that failed in large part due to the union employees work ethic and demands rendering the businesses uncompetitive.

I used to do business with both companies, and witnessed first hand employees doing just about anything but the job they were paid to do.

One place I always saw a group of "employees" in the break room, watching ball games. I would comment on the fact that it was great they could relax while on break, and they would always say "We aren't on break, we're on the clock". I would say "Aren't you worried about losing your jobs"? the answer was always "No, our Union will protect us".

My point is; it's not always the big, bad management that is at fault.

i have two family members that work in assembly plants for GM, the White Marsh plant in MD that manufactures transmissions for the suv's/trucks. They've been my baseline for what i know about GM's employees vs. management. (biased, i know).

I know exactly what you mean about unions, i deal with a lot of wholesalers and distributors, and we do not deal with any other business/companies that have unionized workers, i just don't believe in it. For my employees, its survival of the fittest, if you can't do your job, ill find someone who can.

 

[slapdappy]

Unions have priced labor out of the market.
The primary force driving current fiscal woes is public pensions and benefits. Government budgets do not lack revenue, they lack fiscal discipline. Why should the private sector be responsible for funding lifelong pensions and benefits for local, state, and federal employees? It is absurd, irrational, and literally unsustainable. It is a huge suck hole draining public coffers everywhere, every day. Do your job, get paid, assume financial responsibility for your own retirement and health care just like the privater sector must.
Yearly pension and benefit costs are what sunk GM originally. Let it behave like a private company and stand or fall on its own without government support or interference.

 

[1engineer]

Does anyone really think that if GM would fail, meaning to go bankrupt and close their doors permanently, that Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others woundn't just step right in and take those sales? Of course they would. This is no different than having two pizza places in a town. If one folds due to poor management and the business is there the other pizza place will just take their business and grow. No difference. Some of the workers will be hired and life will go on.

 

[SV_Dude]

Does anyone really think that if GM would fail, meaning to go bankrupt and close their doors permanently, that Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others woundn't just step right in and take those sales? Of course they would. This is no different than having two pizza places in a town. If one folds due to poor management and the business is there the other pizza place will just take their business and grow. No difference. Some of the workers will be hired and life will go on.

My point exactly! If GM goes under (which they should) there probably won't be too much difficulty for the employees. It will be economically beneficial since our tax dollars won't be wasted on a losing company.