HELP! Electrical Problem won't start...stuck!

[Philbert]

So I am at the in laws and was doing some maintenance on the 87 4Runner: Brushing off the battery terminals and installing a new exhaust manifold gasket.

I took off the battery terminals and brushed them off with a wire brush. I then did the gasket replacement with the battery terminals disconnected.

When done, I re-attached teh battery terminals.

when I went to turn the truck over, I got a "click" from the engine bay.

I've checked:
Coil plug
Spark plugs
Fusible links
fuses
Turned off all radio/heater controls

I tried dishcharging the electrical system by connecting the battery terminals together (not while connected the battery of course), then leaving them for a few minutes before reconnecting them to the battery. When I do this, the symptoms are the same. I only get one "Click" out of it though - after that I get nothing, unless I go through the discharging process described above again.

I'm stuck. PLEASE PLEASE HELP! I'm not very electrically savvy...

Thanks in advance!!

Phil (stranded in the Sierra Foothills)

 

[Philbert]

more detail

Here are some more details/symptoms:

When I am about to turn the key, everything seems find: the dome light is on when the door is open, the dash lights go on, and the "door is open" buzzer sounds like normal. The moment I turn the key, all those things die.

When I have discharged the electrical system and reconnected the battery terminals, I am able to get the same symptoms above, until I turn the key.

Something else interesting to note: When the key is in the ignition but not yet turned, I can turn on the parking lights with no effect. BUT....when I turn on the headlights, they don't go on, and the whole system dies, just like if I were to turn the key.

Again, the fuses and links are fine.

I really don't know where to start.

 

[jharris2]

First thing that comes to mind (and I'm no expert) -- how old is your battery? I've seen them go without warning. Seems that you're OK with a very light load, but a heavy load causes it to fail.

If you have access to a charger, see if you can use that to get it to start. Alternative is to try jumping it or use a jumper battery.

 

[Philbert]

Thanks John for the reply.

Battery is about 3 years old and is strong from what I can tell - started up great this morning when I drove it 20 feet to the garage. I have it hooked up now to a charger my father in law has, and the moment I hooked it up, the light indicated "near or fully charged".

I used a multimeter (I have no idea really how to use it but had it to the RX1K(omega) setting to test resistance on the fusbile links, since that's where the "click" comes from every time I try to start the truck. The relay located in the fusible links area is giving me a strange reading: there are 4 prongs, and when I test 2 of the prongs on the relay when removed, I get no resistance; when I test the 2 slots the prongs mate to, there is resistance. It's the opposite reaction of the other 2 prongs and slots. But I don't understand relays so maybe that's normal?

Any other ideas?

 

[the_dingman]

It really sounds like the battery is just low, as anytime you're putting a big drain on it, it craps out.

I would see what happens when you jump start it. You may also want to see if you disconnected any grounding points when removing parts.

 

[Philbert]

Thanks Nick.

I am done for the day working on this - it's freezing out there! But I can try jumping tomorrow.

I'm a little hesitant to think it's the battery though - for a couple reasons:

1) Instead of the "tick tick tick" that most dead batteries eperience, and the fading headlights, failing electronics, this experience is just a hard cutoff of power all around - the moment I turn the key or turn on the headlights. It's ONE audible click - coming from teh fusible link/relay area.

2) If it were dead I wouldn't be able to "reset the system" by disconnecting the battery terminals, touching them, then reconnecting them to recreate the symptoms. When I reset the system, the dome light and everything else work. When the "click" happens, it all goes away. Then, when I reset it - everything is fine till I turn the key or turn on the headlights.

I feel like it's somehow related to the relay/fusible links, but I know little about them. I took apart the box where the links and relay are, and there was some moisture in the bottom - I'm hoping to let them dry a little overnight then put it together and re try in the morning - maybe with a jump.

Any other ideas?

Thanks guys in advance!

Phil

 

[Philbert]

OK...so today I only had a little time to work on it as I was gone all day. But I tried jumping it, and had the same results:

Dash lights work, parking lights work, headlights sometimes go on, and as soon as I turn the key, I get the "click" from the fusible links section of the engine bay and everything goes dark again. I am still able to reset the system when i take the batery leads off and touch them, and then hook them up again to the battery...with the same symptoms over and over.

I'm taking the battery to an auto store tomorrow for a full test. May jsut get a new battery any way at this point.

Any other ideas as to what it could be? I think I'll scream if a new battery isn't the solution.....

 

[the_dingman]

Could be a bad relay down under the kick plate by the fuses. Try pulling them out and smacking them in your hand a few times to loosen them up if they're stuck.

It could also be an issue with the ignition switch. When you turn the key to 'on' it connects two wires, one gives power to the engine, the other for accessories. The problem could be there.

 

[Philbert]

Thanks Nick.

There is one relay in the fuse box in the engine bay, but you're talking about another set in the drivers side foot well? I have that panel off from when I was checking on this earlier. I don't recall there being relays there - just fuses and 2 circuit breakers for power windows and locks...

I'll take a look in the AM. The ignition switch - that's where the key cylinder is right? Or somewhere else?

Thanks again for your help.

Phil

 

[guido4512]

Sounds like the starter. If you can hear a definite loud clicking the solenoid is ok but the starter motor itself is bad.
Check ALL your connections at the starter.
Still no worky?
Try tapping the side if the starter motor with a hammer while someone trys to turn it over. Be careful.

 

[jharris2]

OK...so today I only had a little time to work on it as I was gone all day. But I tried jumping it, and had the same results:

Dash lights work, parking lights work, headlights sometimes go on, and as soon as I turn the key, I get the "click" from the fusible links section of the engine bay and everything goes dark again. I am still able to reset the system when i take the batery leads off and touch them, and then hook them up again to the battery...with the same symptoms over and over.

I'm taking the battery to an auto store tomorrow for a full test. May jsut get a new battery any way at this point.

Any other ideas as to what it could be? I think I'll scream if a new battery isn't the solution.....

Since the jump failed, then it sounds as if the battery is OK. The other suggestions in this thread are logical next steps (ground, starter motor, relay).

 

[drmorbius]

Thanks Nick.

There is one relay in the fuse box in the engine bay, but you're talking about another set in the drivers side foot well? I have that panel off from when I was checking on this earlier. I don't recall there being relays there - just fuses and 2 circuit breakers for power windows and locks...

I'll take a look in the AM. The ignition switch - that's where the key cylinder is right? Or somewhere else?

Thanks again for your help.

Phil

So all this started when you removed the battery terminals? It's possible that you have some corrosion in the wires right at the battery. Look for greenish white deposits on the wires at the terminals. I have seen corrosion like this go down under the insulation . So a wire can actually break inside the insulation just from moving the wires around. Set the ohmeter to volts on the 20 volt scale if you have one and check for battery voltage at the other end of the battery cables. Make sure that the ground cable is actually making it to ground. Should read 0 ohms from the ground terminal to the body metal.

 

[Philbert]

Good news and bad news

So, this morning I took Nick's advice and "smacked around" the relay in the engine bay and reinserted it. I still was not able to start it, but the system was no longer "re setting" itself after each start attempt - it just went "click", and the cabin lights stayed on - though dim....

So I tested the battery and was getting around 11 volts.

Took it in to get tested and it was gone. Got a new battery and installed it - wahoo - it works!

The bad news is, I did a shitty jon on the exhaust manifold gasket job and it sounds like a boat motor. I had ended up stripping (and removing one of the studs....so off to the auto store to get a new stud and nut, and some exhaust manifold gasket maker....

Still crazy that it was the battery after all this...and I could not jump it earlier (it should work if it were the battery that was dead rght)?

Ah well - I'm just glad it runs - now I can return to my previous job and get it right

Thanks EVERYONE who chimed in for your help!!

Phil

 

[Philbert]

Thanks Dr Morbious - I must have missed your post earlier today - sorry!

Before getting the new battery today I did test the old one under load with my ammeter (checked for voltage with the key in the "ignition" setting). I also checked where the battery to ground lead bolts onto the fender a few incehs away from the battery. Both readings were the same - about 11.2 volts.

The positive wire coming from the battery to the fuse box in the engine bay and down to the starter is old, and badly corroded - I do have plans to replace this ASAP (the ground from battery down to the starter (I think that's where it ends up!) is in good shape though.

I'm just glad it's running now so I can get home later this week and explore further. I just need to fix my exhaust manifold gasket issue right now (I left off the 2 small plates that go under each set of 3 studs/bolts on the top portion of the manifold so there are 4 small holes at the top of the manifold and the truck sounds like a motorboat when I start it (but at least it starts now!). I need to replace the one stud that was stripped, and get some gasket maker on there. I'll report back when done.

Again everyone, thanks!

 

[jharris2]

Thanks Dr Morbious - I must have missed your post earlier today - sorry!

Before getting the new battery today I did test the old one under load with my ammeter (checked for voltage with the key in the "ignition" setting). I also checked where the battery to ground lead bolts onto the fender a few incehs away from the battery. Both readings were the same - about 11.2 volts.

The positive wire coming from the battery to the fuse box in the engine bay and down to the starter is old, and badly corroded - I do have plans to replace this ASAP (the ground from battery down to the starter (I think that's where it ends up!) is in good shape though.

I'm just glad it's running now so I can get home later this week and explore further. I just need to fix my exhaust manifold gasket issue right now (I left off the 2 small plates that go under each set of 3 studs/bolts on the top portion of the manifold so there are 4 small holes at the top of the manifold and the truck sounds like a motorboat when I start it (but at least it starts now!). I need to replace the one stud that was stripped, and get some gasket maker on there. I'll report back when done.

Again everyone, thanks!

Great that you made progress!

 

[Philbert]

So just thought I'd wrap this up and let you know how it ended up.

I put the new stud/bolt frmo teh auto store in place of the one I had stripped and it seemed to have worked well - got it in with minimal extra effort.

I tightened everything from the INSIDE of the header OUT, as the manual instructed. Everything is nice and tight.

The "burbling" (think motorboat) is now at a very very low level. WIth the hood closed, you can barely even hear it. A friend today told me that you want to make sure the gasket is sealed on well before driving it - to avoid damaging valves (cracking them). Does this sound like a big risk? Seems like it's on there really tight and I don't want to over torque the bolts and strip them or the head. There are leaks in the pre and post cat flange, as well as the pipe where it enters the muffler (these are later repairs...) - I know exhaust is escaping at these points already - if there's a little bit leaking out of the header, is that a huge problem?

I just want to confirm what I already assume - that it's drivable. Anything to look out for at this point, to avoid any big damage? I'm a little paranoid...

thanks

 

[Philbert]

one more question - gasket leak

Hey guys...so the truck runs now.

And the gasket seems to leak a little.

There are metal tabs (about 1"x3") that were with the old gasket and covered up the 4 air holes on the header. there were 2 of them (1 set per pair of cylinders) and they each had residue from an old gasket sealer of some sort it seems.... Check out the photo attached that I just took - showing the leakage area.



Question is...what can I use to seal it up and is it normal to do so? Did i just do a really bad job of scraping off the old gasket maker that was there?

I don't think it's dire straits but I want to be sure and not risk cracking a valve or something...

Thanks

 

[Philbert]

OK, I feel pretty embarassed about this now....I figured it out.

The dark thin things you see in the images I posted - between the spacer plate and the nuts....that's supposed to go on the OTHER side of the spacer plate - between it and the header - that's what plugs up the leaks I noticed, and that's what was all "gunked up" from the previous gasket - was just a different material.

So, after smacking myself, I moved the seals around, tightened it up again and it's running like a charm.

*sigh*

 

[jharris2]

OK, I feel pretty embarassed about this now....I figured it out.

The dark thin things you see in the images I posted - between the spacer plate and the nuts....that's supposed to go on the OTHER side of the spacer plate - between it and the header - that's what plugs up the leaks I noticed, and that's what was all "gunked up" from the previous gasket - was just a different material.

So, after smacking myself, I moved the seals around, tightened it up again and it's running like a charm.

*sigh*

Great that it's fixed!!