HELP! VSC trac, ABS, and skid pic lights on

[Blackbeauty4run06]

I have a 2006 toyota 4runner sr5 v8, 4wd with 74000 miles. In the past month my abs, vsc trac, and pic of car skidding lights all 4 will come on in the midst of my driving. (See pic below) It seems to happen most during or after I have been sitting in traffic. The lights will go off if I restart my car. They never come on initially so I don't think it's the battery and it usually takes 5-15 mins before they come on. It also doesn't do it consistently as there are days I can drive without issues. This week it has happened three times. None have occurred when raining.

I've taken the car to the toyota dealership twice and they don't have a clue. They say they can see which codes are malfunctioning but there could be 5-6 different things wrong under those codes and nothing seems to be wrong with any of those items.

What do I do? I'm sick of these lights coming on bc to me it means something is wrong with my car and I'd prefer to have this fixed while I still have my extended warranty plan. Any thoughts????

 

[chaz]

you didnt list what they said could be the problems but was a bad gas cap one of them?

 

[Blackbeauty4run06]

Shouldn't be the gas cap; that was replaced last year. My check engine light kept coming on bc of the gas cap.

The codes listed on my service sheet were: "c1223, c1249 & c1253

Thoughts??

Greatly appreciate any ideas!!

 

[LTDSC]

my question is why would you a) let it leave the shop still acting up b) accept an "i have no idea why its doing this" from the dealer.

If it were mine, it wouldnt leave until it was fixed. Especially if i had a warranty left and no chance i'd leave without a rental.

 

[Blackbeauty4run06]

Where I appreciate your questions above, I am more so looking for a fix to my solution as it seems this is a common warning light to come on with Toyotas vs you questioning my personal decisions. I can't really afford to pay 40$ a day for a rental car when the dealership won't fix my car and tells me there's nothing they know to do. I'm planning to take it back for a 3rd time here soon as I am keeping a journal for when the lights come on, but wanted to educate myself first before bringing it in.

Now, is there anyone out there that has any knowledge as to what may be the cause of my warning lights coming on?

 

[Brutalguyracing]

Where I appreciate your questions above, I am more so looking for a fix to my solution as it seems this is a common warning light to come on with Toyotas vs you questioning my personal decisions. I can't really afford to pay 40$ a day for a rental car when the dealership won't fix my car and tells me there's nothing they know to do. I'm planning to take it back for a 3rd time here soon as I am keeping a journal for when the lights come on, but wanted to educate myself first before bringing it in.

Now, is there anyone out there that has any knowledge as to what may be the cause of my warning lights coming on?

have you check wheel sensors.....
sometimes it could be a symptom of a wheel bearing going bad.....
i had a problem like this with my tacoma....
when i replaced the wheel bearing..it never came back...
unknown if it was crap on the sensor but you could check

on my tacoma i could pull specific codes with a jumper wire.....
unsure if it is possible on the runner
as i just got mine i would not rather comment further until i known more....
good luck hope you find the cause

 

[Greydog]

Code c1223: This DTC is output when the VSC system detects a malfunction in the ABS system. When DTC C1223/43 is stored, there is no malfunction in the skid control ECU.

C1249: The skid control ECU inputs the stop light switch signal and detects the status of the brake operation. When ECU terminal IG1 voltage 9.5 V to 17.0 V and ABS non-operational, open in stop light switch circuit continues for 0.3 seconds or more.

C1253: ABS Inlet Valve Coil LR Circuit Short To ground

Sounds like an ABS or brake light switch issue?

Google is your friend, alot of info out there.

The dealer sounds like they are not willing to investigate, and there are test procedures for these, so they may be trying to wait out the warranty or just lazy. Hard to say, but their response was kinda lame, they should be able to determine the issue.

 

[Blackbeauty4run06]

Thank you brutalguyracing for your thoughts!

Greydog I think you are on the right track. They did mention something about a possible break light switch issue. I feel like something is wrong with the abs bc I frequently skid in the rain and abs kicks in with light pressure slowing from 20 to 10 mph. I have Aldo alerted the dealership about this.....back in august. Was told I had off market brake products on my front brakes and needed a brake job. Replaced the brakes and car still skids if stopping on a bumpy surface in the rain.

But what would need replacing if it's the abs system??

 

[HokieRunner]

Shouldn't be the gas cap; that was replaced last year. My check engine light kept coming on bc of the gas cap.

The codes listed on my service sheet were: "c1223, c1249 & c1253

Thoughts??

Greatly appreciate any ideas!!

These codes indicate faults in the brake booster and stop light switch among other possibilities. A speed sensor could also be the cause. I'd do some online searching for these trouble codes....or go back and get the dealer to fix it under your warranty.

my question is why would you a) let it leave the shop still acting up b) accept an "i have no idea why its doing this" from the dealer.

If it were mine, it wouldnt leave until it was fixed. Especially if i had a warranty left and no chance i'd leave without a rental.

These are valid points. If the dealer cannot address the issue they are don't want to deal with it or honestly don't know what it is. But they should be able to diagnose using the codes as a starting point. Maybe try a different dealer? These issues are pretty hard to diagnose with limited information over the Internet.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

you didnt list what they said could be the problems but was a bad gas cap one of them?

I'm not trying to be rude or condescending here, but that is not what you would see if there was a DTC set by anything related to the Emissions such as a gas cap (You would see . If you would like to learn more about how OBDII works in general and how DTCs are set and what lights go on for the type of DTC set I highly recommend looking through this thread:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/151487-check-engine-trac-vsc-read-me.html

[MENTION=105901]Blackbeauty4run06[/MENTION]

C1223- ABS Control System Malfunction (General ABS Fault Code)
C1249- Open in Stop Light Switch Circuit
C1253- Hydro-Booster Pump Motor Relay Malfunction

These are the codes you've posted; a cursory examination of the codes seem to indicate a possible issue in the Hydra-Boost unit and/or stop lamp switch circuit. I couldn't tell you anything definitive at the moment as I do not have access to TIS (Toyota Information Service) outside of work and I am unable to see the vehicle in person.

But I can say that IF all the lights are going out when you cycle the key as you say they do, this could indicate it is not a hard fault. What I mean by this is that if there was a constant issue with the system the lights would not turn off and a permanent DTC would be set unless the ABS/VSC/TRAC module was cleared with a compatible scantool. This means that the vehicle starts up, goes through self-check and says "I'm okay for now" until you do something like step on the brake or drive a short distance.

I'm suspecting that possibly the main issue here may be the stop lamp switch circuit, but I am not 100% certain at the moment without being able to look at TIS for more information regarding the DTCs as well as testing the vehicle myself. If you can, please try the follow:

1.) IF the lights do go out when you cycle the key, please start the vehicle and do not touch the brake pedal at all.

2.) IF the lights do not turn back on after waiting a few minutes, THEN step on the brake pedal as if you were to shift out of gear.

3.) IF the lights still do notturn on after you depress the brake pedal please drive a short distance (about 5-10ft should be enough).

This way we can narrow the issue to a certain action/area of the braking circuit. I'll try to get some more information from TIS tomorrow if I have time; but I can't guarantee anything as I have had two other people ask me to look up stuff also so I may not get to it this week.

 

[HokieRunner]

Thank you brutalguyracing for your thoughts!

Greydog I think you are on the right track. They did mention something about a possible break light switch issue. I feel like something is wrong with the abs bc I frequently skid in the rain and abs kicks in with light pressure slowing from 20 to 10 mph. I have Aldo alerted the dealership about this.....back in august. Was told I had off market brake products on my front brakes and needed a brake job. Replaced the brakes and car still skids if stopping on a bumpy surface in the rain.

But what would need replacing if it's the abs system??

Looks like brutalguyracing and greydog beat me to the punch!

Off market brake pads? I think you need to find a different dealer to be honest. These codes all have diagnostic breakdowns so I'd guess they're giving you the runaround.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Thank you brutalguyracing for your thoughts!

Greydog I think you are on the right track. They did mention something about a possible break light switch issue. I feel like something is wrong with the abs bc I frequently skid in the rain and abs kicks in with light pressure slowing from 20 to 10 mph. I have Aldo alerted the dealership about this.....back in august. Was told I had off market brake products on my front brakes and needed a brake job. Replaced the brakes and car still skids if stopping on a bumpy surface in the rain.

But what would need replacing if it's the abs system??

Without test driving the vehicle in the above conditions I can't say how "abnormal" it is, while I will say that a failing brake switch can provide false input (as you seem to be implying with your post and the DTCs seem to point at.) But here's a bit of a explanation why it may not be entirely abnormal.

I can tell you that I've had the same issue in everything from a 1990's LS400, 19933 Chevy S10 Blazer, 2001 Honda Odyssey, and my 2004 4Runner. All the above vehicles had properly functioning ABS systems. What I have both been taught and noticed with ABS systems is that they consistently tend to be squirrelly feeling in wet/slippery situations. What I mean by that is that many times I notice stopping distances are increased and I have little control of the brakes (i.e. being able to vary pressure applied to the pedal to get the brakes to bite) when ABS engages. Newer systems aren't as bad as older ones (the Blazer's would literally stop somewhere in the middle or the other side of an intersection, where as the 4Runner is a bit better) from what I have experienced, but its a consistent thing. A common misunderstanding of ABS systems is that they do not actually decrease stopping distance and in many cases they increase stopping distance with the goal of maintaining control of the vehicle when braking (i.e. straight-line control and ability to steer while sliding.)

Unfortunately the ABS system is extremely powerful in vehicles that use a hydraulically assisted brake booster like the 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, and Prius among other models. The reason is because the system can almost completely ignore driver input and rely on its programming (the Prius actually blocks off Driver input for the first 1/4-1/3 of pedal travel to better utilize regenerative braking, it feeds you a false feedback while it modulates the brakes itself.) So in the 4Runner when the ABS/VSC kick in it can quite easily overpower the driver's input and thus you feel like you've lost braking control, pulsing the pedal (a common trick many of use who drove vehicles without ABS learned) does not do well with ABS systems as it can work against the solenoid packs.

Unfortunately there is some small credence to the part about different brake pads. Not much, but enough that in a wet situation it COULD possibly cause enough of a difference of wheel speed from what the ABS/VSC/TRAC system is looking for that it may think some funny stuff may be happening. Modern ABS systems seem to be programmed more on the conservative side, ready to jump in at the smallest sign of wheel slip and/or odd braking feel (for the computer, not the driver.) I've noticed many times in some vehicles just taking a turn at 30mph at a somewhat sharp turn-in causes the ABS/VSC system to kick in on many vehicles (sometimes causing the vehicle to feel like its losing even more control thanks to the nannies) so this could also be an unfortunately intended "feature" since these annoying electronic nannies are not going to get more liberal as they continue to be implemented in many vehicles.

Like I said without test driving the vehicle, I can only go by what you're saying and my experience with various vehicles and ABS systems and this doesn't sound as uncommon or abnormal as many people may think it is, especially if you tend to brake hard like I do.

 

[mahabali]

Do a quick search for zero point calibration. I had the same issue and that fixed it.

 

[Blackbeauty4run06]

Thank you all for your well thought out posts! Luckily my service plan is thru any toyota dealership so If this one can't fix the problem, I will move on to another. I will be in touch with the dealership tomorrow and keep updated posts on here. I value any knowledgable opinions.

 

[chaz]

blackworks, i greatly respect your knowledge & have no problem with what you said, just to let you know ive read that post awhile ago & its a good one, my point was more or else just to see what the dealer said the problems were & to let the op know that even a bad gas cap can result in lights, which alot of people dont realize is possible if they've only use to older cars. so theres no need to beat up on me, peace

 

[BlackWorksInc]

blackworks, i greatly respect your knowledge & have no problem with what you said, just to let you know ive read that post awhile ago & its a good one, my point was more or else just to see what the dealer said the problems were & to let the op know that even a bad gas cap can result in lights, which alot of people dont realize is possible if they've only driven some older cars. so theres no need to beat up on me, peace

Wasn't trying to beat you up so I'm sorry if it came across like that. I was only trying to point out that the ABS Light & "Squiggly Car" Light being on are not consistent with the typical MIL, VSC OFF, and TRAC OFF lights you see when an OBDII DTC is set like a gas cap code. The additional two lights being solid are indicative of an ABS specific issue, where as if it were just the VSC OFF & TRAC OFF lights with the MIL on in the background (since we can't see it in the picture) then I would have considered the possibility of something like that.

 

[Blackbeauty4run06]

So the pic of the lights was taken while driving. No other abnormal lights on. No check engine light on.

Once the 4 lights come on, they stay on until I turn the engine off and are gone upon turning back on. They came on again this morning on my way to work. Clear day, no rain, temp 42 degrees. I had been in a little stop and go traffic for 5 mins, then interstate for 7 mins, got off interstate and on side streets driving about 30-40 mph for 3 mins. Was slowing down to make a left turn and lights came on. Parked car, turned engine off, foot off brake, turned car back on, lights gone. No warning lights on my commute home. There's no pattern.

Called toyota dealership again today. They said they were willing to look at it again but I'm stuck paying for a rental car unless they find the issue and then will have to check to see if the issue is covered by my warranty.

I can take it to another dealership but have to sign to pay for diagnostic if they can't find the issue. I'm worried they won't find what's wrong and will be out more money. I feel helpless and just want someone honest to make my car not have warning lights pop on when I drive.

 

[4rs]

I now have the same issue. Driving yesterday, all four lights went on. I shut off the truck, restart, they are now off. I drive for a few feet, they go back on as I accelerate. That is 80% of the time since yesterday. The other 20% of the time, they don't relight or they go off after about 15 minutes. I had the battery, starter, and alternator all checked. All good. Any thoughts? After reading the thread, I did see it's not a hard code, since they do go off. I'm just fearing the expense of this.

 

[BOSMECH]

Try a zero point caibration first then go from there.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I now have the same issue. Driving yesterday, all four lights went on. I shut off the truck, restart, they are now off. I drive for a few feet, they go back on as I accelerate. That is 80% of the time since yesterday. The other 20% of the time, they don't relight or they go off after about 15 minutes. I had the battery, starter, and alternator all checked. All good. Any thoughts? After reading the thread, I did see it's not a hard code, since they do go off. I'm just fearing the expense of this.

If you can get it done, I'd try a ZPC and see if that does anything as it won't really hurt anything.

But really you need to pull the DTCs so we can look at them. No one can accurately tell you what is wrong with the vehicle without knowing what the codes are, the lights are there to tell you, "Hey! I think I have a problem; but you need to ask (pull DTCs) what I think is the issue!"