Icon or Radflo

[cbielat]

:iagree: I'm always learning something new on here! Seems that ICON's digressive valving coupled with KDSS is overkill, but without sways it could improve on-road manners? Something to consider if I ever decide to go full on long travel and ditch the KDSS altogether. While my standpoint on this may be off since I haven't spent much time in 4R's w/o KDSS, I run ICONS w/ KDSS and want to say that it feels like it rides on rails on the highway and around town. And yes, remote res is definitely overbuilding for what most of us do in a 5th gen and this goes along the same lines, but I like that CDCV valves are available as part of the package and as an upgrade. A nice little modular touch worth mentioning.

Holy shit he posted something!

 

[KVA]

I have had both now...the Overland Warehouse Radflo 2.5's with the 700# front springs and now the Icon 2.5's with Remote Resi's all around and 650# springs and both function great. I have enjoyed both rides, though the Icon is a bit softer for everyday driving, but as many have stated before me - the second you step on it and hit obstacles it just eats them up. There is more bounce with the Radflo setup if that makes any sense.

I switched as the Radflo setup had a blown piston and I had them fully rebuilt by Radflo (good guys and super easy to deal with).

My two cents. You can't go wrong with either...just find the best deal and run with it.

 

[Dubiousatbest]

you really going to run those neoprene boots in New England? i'd think they'd just make things worse; easier to just routinely get a good spray in there at the self-wash bay. i assume you got the IVD coated fronts?

got any more shots of the whole rig as it sits now?

my apologies to the OP for going a wee bit off-topic... it remains somewhat germane to the subject, however... :violin:

Yup, figured IVD would be the way to go up here. I'll use the boots on the trail definitely, but you're right and I've heard a few others say the same. Luckily they're not terribly difficult to take on and off. Here's another, so much better when its dirty hoto:

 

[cbielat]

Yup, figured IVD would be the way to go up here. I'll use the boots on the trail definitely, but you're right and I've heard a few others say the same. Luckily they're not terribly difficult to take on and off. Here's another, so much better when its dirty hoto:

How is it that yours stayed cleaner than mine? …Oh, I think it was that other route I took following Josh where I got stuck for a bit lol.

 

[sandcrawler]

CDCV valve, :lol:

I'm workin on putting some albums together but here's a couple. I didn't end up getting the CDC, actually ordered the old piggy backs but apparently they were discontinued? and got these instead.


The pic doesn't show the res installed, it ended up on the frame in the pocket just above/behind it much like the stock photo on icons site. Gotta credit Jeff at Wicked Trail Products for the pictures, they're posted on FB somewheres

another quick thing re: the new 2.5" rears... the old piggybacks were a 5" reservoir—the new remotes are a 7.5" reservoir; upgradable to CDC valve.

all the info here: http://www.iconvehicledynamics.com/news/icon-toyota-07-fj-cruiser-03-4runner-rear-shock-update/

 

[drewm]

I have had both now...the Overland Warehouse Radflo 2.5's with the 700# front springs and now the Icon 2.5's with Remote Resi's all around and 650# springs and both function great. I have enjoyed both rides, though the Icon is a bit softer for everyday driving, but as many have stated before me - the second you step on it and hit obstacles it just eats them up. There is more bounce with the Radflo setup if that makes any sense.

I switched as the Radflo setup had a blown piston and I had them fully rebuilt by Radflo (good guys and super easy to deal with).

My two cents. You can't go wrong with either...just find the best deal and run with it.

Sounds like a good description. Because the Icons are valved digressive they probably have a better street ride as they take in the fast hits instead of resist them more, but you should keep in mind that when offroading, taking in the fast hits can cause you to bottom out and break parts, especially with the limited 4runner suspension travel.

This is the reason why shock valving used in offroad competition isn't digressive.

I have the radflos, and love them.

 

[mfregeau20]

Not to get off topic but I like Target better than Walmart. I know it can be a little more expensive at times but it's a personal choice.

:hiding:

 

[Ghost.]

Not to get off topic but I like Target better than Walmart. I know it can be a little more expensive at times but it's a personal choice.

:hiding:

Target smells funny though. Like a hospital or something.

 

[Bicepus Maximus]

I'll hopefully be picking up my 2014 Trail premium this week with KDSS and wanted to get everyone's input. I've loved the Radflos I've had on my 2000 for years now but without being able to see the valving specs in each of these setups I was wondering which was preferred. I definitely go wheeling from time to time but 95% of the time my 4runner is on pavement and I like a soft ride. Which would you recommend?

To be more specific;
THIS Radflo kit - Radflo 4Runner Stage 2 Suspension Kit w/ LR UCA's

THIS Icon kit - 2010 5th Gen 4Runner Stage 2 Lift w/ Light Racing UCA's

Read this post.

 

[Bicepus Maximus]

I would also like to add that just because the products are similar, cost about the same, have a similar application, etc., does not mean they're are the same. Unless a 4Runner is the same as the Jeep Grand Cherokee?

You may very well like both, but they're designed, made, and managed by very different companies.

I decided to spend premium money on premium suspension. And ultimately I chose Fox for many obvious reasons to me.

Good luck.

 

[mfregeau20]

Target smells funny though. Like a hospital or something.

Now that I think of it, really it kind of does LOL

that is totally funny!

 

[Ghost.]

Now that I think of it, really it kind of does LOL

that is totally funny!

Definitely weird that's for sure, like death and greeting cards

 

[sandcrawler]

Read this post.

i hardly think referencing a massively biased single post is a useful contribution to the OP's question.

and i'd say the same thing if instead of "CRAPCON" that single post read "CRAPFlo" too, for the record.

 

[Bicepus Maximus]

i hardly think referencing a massively biased single post is a useful contribution to the OP's question.

and i'd say the same thing if instead of "CRAPCON" that single post read "CRAPFlo" too, for the record.

No doubt it's biased. But it's biased based on fact. There's legitimate reasoning behind it.

Regardless of opinion, fact is; of the more expensive aftermarket suspension options for the 4Runner, Icon is the only one that uses digressive valving. Valving that's used mainly in car shock absorbers.

 

[1engineer]

No doubt it's biased. But it's biased based on fact. There's legitimate reasoning behind it.

Regardless of opinion, fact is; of the more expensive aftermarket suspension options for the 4Runner, Icon is the only one that uses digressive valving. Valving that's used mainly in car shock absorbers.

I started this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...-springs-technical-selection.html#post1614509 In the hopes that it would give people the basic knowledge needed to determine what they wanted.

People tend to read things that fit their preconceived ideas and use them to justify their decisions. When I do something like that thread, I try to take all bias out of the equation and just let facts be the guide.

Above you mentioned digressive valving mainly being used on car shock absorbers. I bet you would be surprised to know where shocks with digressive valving are applied. I could start a big long list but most off road heavy equipment uses this design, as well as miniature shocks on robotic arms, so it encompasses a large variety of applications. Oh, rally cars use digressive valved shocks as well.

My point is there is no perfect shock for a perfect application. You dismiss, along with a few others in this forum, any design that does not fit your idea of the way things should work. In truth, either a Fox, like you run, or a Bilstein, like countless others run, work just fine in a particular application. If I had such a closed mind in my profession I would be without a job rather quickly.

Last point: You also mentioned that "Regardless of opinion, fact is; of the more expensive aftermarket suspension options for the 4Runner, Icon is the only one that uses digressive valving.
There is a reason that those shocks are "expensive" and you should tell the whole truth. They are expensive because you could put King, Icon, Fox, Radflo and the other boutique shock makers together and you wouldn't equal 10% of Bilstein's annual production. The main reason Bilstein is less expensive, and the others are more costly, is economy of scale. Here is a nice link with an opposing view http://www.bestcoiloverguide.com/coilover-parts/shock-valving/

 

[drewm]

No doubt it's biased. But it's biased based on fact. There's legitimate reasoning behind it.

Regardless of opinion, fact is; of the more expensive aftermarket suspension options for the 4Runner, Icon is the only one that uses digressive valving. Valving that's used mainly in car shock absorbers.

I'll give the reasons why I chose Radflo over Icon and competitors.

First, I was disappointed that Icon was building lower end shocks for the rear. It would always seem like a constant upgrade cycle from the old 2.0, to the VS2.0 to the 2.5 piggyback, and now they have their 2.5 with res. Their 2.0 rear shocks would also have horrid reviews, and multiple failures. Radflo from the very beginning built a 2.5 with res because they knew it was the best. I wasn't interested in a constant upgrade cycle of new products, I wanted the best. Icon finally has settled on a nice 2.5 with res which is great, but the fact that they didn't have that product when I was looking really irked me.

Also I was quite worried about the top hat design of Icon's front coilovers. There were quite a few threads about them breaking.

I also didn't like the digressive valving that Icon used, it made me wonder if they were just selling you a product that was just something cheaper rebadged and offering great support on it. For a long time their 2.0 rear shocks appeared to be just that, someone else's crappy product rebadged.

Also of note, I do know that high end digressive shocks exist. I run high end digressive custom valved Ohlins on my Evolution X and they ride amazingly well compared to the JICs I ran before which felt very linear, but I knew I needed something more linear on my truck for the bigger hits in the dirt to prevent bottoming out. I can see why people love their Icons though, digressive shocks feel great on the road, very controlled yet give easily for big hits, but it didn't quite fit my use and intentions for this truck.

I was very close to buying Fox for the name, but I eventually steered away because I realized they had multiple lines. I couldn't buy the same quality of product that trophy trucks would run as an OEM setup, it seemed like a completely different parts stack. Radflo doesn't have multiple lines, they offer the same level of product for you as they do on trophy trucks. Same barrels, same pistons, same shafts.

I also considered King, but was disappointed to find out that to adjust the height you have to remove them from the car.

Also what sealed the deal was the fact that Radflo ended up using Overland Warehouse's valving for all their 4runner applications over their own because it was that good. Knowing that I wasn't buying some generic valving that was perfected on another similar vehicle was a huge plus. It really is a top notch valving street/dirt compromise, and I've ridden on a lot of coilover systems in the past. You can really tell the OW guys put a lot of work into perfecting it. Most of the other coilover manufacturers give you a generic valving that is shared across many platforms and isn't specific to the 4runner.

That's my 2c, hope some of it had some value to you.

 

[Bicepus Maximus]

I started this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...-springs-technical-selection.html#post1614509 In the hopes that it would give people the basic knowledge needed to determine what they wanted.

People tend to read things that fit their preconceived ideas and use them to justify their decisions. When I do something like that thread, I try to take all bias out of the equation and just let facts be the guide.

Above you mentioned digressive valving mainly being used on car shock absorbers. I bet you would be surprised to know where shocks with digressive valving are applied. I could start a big long list but most off road heavy equipment uses this design, as well as miniature shocks on robotic arms, so it encompasses a large variety of applications. Oh, rally cars use digressive valved shocks as well.

My point is there is no perfect shock for a perfect application. You dismiss, along with a few others in this forum, any design that does not fit your idea of the way things should work. In truth, either a Fox, like you run, or a Bilstein, like countless others run, work just fine in a particular application. If I had such a closed mind in my profession I would be without a job rather quickly.

We're talking about two similarly priced products; Icon and Radflo. Sure, there's an easier argument when taking a much less expensive Bilstein 5100 series shocks into account. For the most part, most people won't know the difference. But we're not talking about that.

Last point: You also mentioned that "Regardless of opinion, fact is; of the more expensive aftermarket suspension options for the 4Runner, Icon is the only one that uses digressive valving.
There is a reason that those shocks are "expensive" and you should tell the whole truth. They are expensive because you could put King, Icon, Fox, Radflo and the other boutique shock makers together and you wouldn't equal 10% of Bilstein's annual production. The main reason Bilstein is less expensive, and the others are more costly, is economy of scale. Here is a nice link with an opposing view Shock and Strut Valving | The Ultimate Coilover Guide

You realize the link with the opposing view has nothing to do with off-roading, right?

Yes, even some of the high end Bilstein off-road shocks come with digressive valving. But you better believe they're for vehicle with a ton of suspension travel.

I'm arguing that progressive valved shocks are an overall more suitable design for what people want to do with the 4Runner. Especially if you're spending a lot of money.

I realize my argument isn't popular, but it's not because I'm "closed-minded". It's because so many people run Icon. Even I had a Icons previously. It was a deal I couldn't pass up.

And I have to say, from one engineer to another, for a guy who advertises his profession the way you do, and rips on people the way you do on here, I'm not sure who's the closed-minded one.

 

[1engineer]

We're talking about two similarly priced products; Icon and Radflo. Sure, there's an easier argument when taking a much less expensive Bilstein 5100 series shocks into account. For the most part, most people won't know the difference. But we're not talking about that.



You realize the link with the opposing view has nothing to do with off-roading, right?

Yes, even some of the high end Bilstein off-road shocks come with digressive valving. But you better believe they're for vehicle with a ton of suspension travel.

I'm arguing that progressive valved shocks are an overall more suitable design for what people want to do with the 4Runner. Especially if you're spending a lot of money.

I realize my argument isn't popular, but it's not because I'm "closed-minded". It's because so many people run Icon. Even I had a Icons previously. It was a deal I couldn't pass up.

And I have to say, from one engineer to another, for a guy who advertises his profession the way you do, and rips on people the way you do on here, I'm not sure who's the closed-minded one.

Fair enough. I would say however rally cars are more offroad than anything any of us ever do. Both have their place, even on 4Runners is all I was saying.

 

[coykili]

I'm thinking of getting the Radflo stage 2 or Radflo stage 6 from Metaltech during their 4th of July sale.
Has anyone found a radflo combination that works with KDSS?



Radflo 4Runner Stage 2 Kit Includes:
RAD-6CT 001 10 x 1 - 2.5" Extended Travel Coilovers Shock Kit
RAD-5ST 001 00 x 2 - 2.0" Smooth Body Rear Shocks w/ IFP
RAD-C1500 500 220 x 1 - 2" Rear Lift Springs
TC-96504 x 1 - 2007+ FJ Cruiser Total Chaos UCA's


Radflo 4Runner Stage 6 Kit Includes:
RAD-6CT 001 1R x 1 - 2.5" Extended Travel Remote Reservoir Coilovers Shock Kit
RAD-6ST 001 0R x 2 - 2.5" Remote Reservoir Rear Shocks w/ IFP
RAD-C1500 500 220 x 1 - 2" Rear Lift Springs
TC-96504 x 1 - 2007+ FJ Cruiser Total Chaos UCA's
MT-GSJ-4025 x 1 - Metal Tech 4x4 FJ Cruiser Offset Rear Lower Links
MT-GSJ-4027 x 1 - Metal Tech 4x4 FJ Cruiser Rear Upper Links

 

[MAST4R]

I'll give the reasons why I chose Radflo over Icon and competitors.

First, I was disappointed that Icon was building lower end shocks for the rear. It would always seem like a constant upgrade cycle from the old 2.0, to the VS2.0 to the 2.5 piggyback, and now they have their 2.5 with res. Their 2.0 rear shocks would also have horrid reviews, and multiple failures. Radflo from the very beginning built a 2.5 with res because they knew it was the best. I wasn't interested in a constant upgrade cycle of new products, I wanted the best. Icon finally has settled on a nice 2.5 with res which is great, but the fact that they didn't have that product when I was looking really irked me.

Also I was quite worried about the top hat design of Icon's front coilovers. There were quite a few threads about them breaking.

I also didn't like the digressive valving that Icon used, it made me wonder if they were just selling you a product that was just something cheaper rebadged and offering great support on it. For a long time their 2.0 rear shocks appeared to be just that, someone else's crappy product rebadged.

Also of note, I do know that high end digressive shocks exist. I run high end digressive custom valved Ohlins on my Evolution X and they ride amazingly well compared to the JICs I ran before which felt very linear, but I knew I needed something more linear on my truck for the bigger hits in the dirt to prevent bottoming out. I can see why people love their Icons though, digressive shocks feel great on the road, very controlled yet give easily for big hits, but it didn't quite fit my use and intentions for this truck.

I was very close to buying Fox for the name, but I eventually steered away because I realized they had multiple lines. I couldn't buy the same quality of product that trophy trucks would run as an OEM setup, it seemed like a completely different parts stack. Radflo doesn't have multiple lines, they offer the same level of product for you as they do on trophy trucks. Same barrels, same pistons, same shafts.

I also considered King, but was disappointed to find out that to adjust the height you have to remove them from the car.

Also what sealed the deal was the fact that Radflo ended up using Overland Warehouse's valving for all their 4runner applications over their own because it was that good. Knowing that I wasn't buying some generic valving that was perfected on another similar vehicle was a huge plus. It really is a top notch valving street/dirt compromise, and I've ridden on a lot of coilover systems in the past. You can really tell the OW guys put a lot of work into perfecting it. Most of the other coilover manufacturers give you a generic valving that is shared across many platforms and isn't specific to the 4runner.

That's my 2c, hope some of it had some value to you.

This is a fantastic post.

Can someone provide an informed update about the state of things five years later? What is the quality of Radflo vs the competition?