Is the Federal Gun Grab over?

[bofa]

I don't see why onme would need to carry a concealed weapon to a sporting event or someplace that is private property. I know most responsible gun owners will stay repsonsible but how about the drunk gun carrier that gets irritated his team lossed or harrassed by another fan and then whips his firearm out as a threat or to use it. There's plenty of trained armed personnel at games and such we don't need another firearm i the mix.

What I don't like about the firearm background checks being turned down is the NRA supported ways to identify the mentally ill then resisted such checks since they don't want doctors deciding who can and can't have a gun. The NRA is more about protecting firearm manufacturers than what the NRA is supossed to stand for and that hunters,marksmen and responsible gun owners. They are all about the money now.

Well, it depends. In our area the sporting events and concerts take place downtown, which is surrounded by poor, high crime areas. Walking to your car after a football game is a good 20-30 minute haul (ie opportunity to get robbed). Also, I'm not sure how venues work where you are, but the security at local events here is pretty weak. Most guards are unarmed, there's no real screening aside from maybe a bag check when entering, and the armed police are heavily outnumbered by the masses and there's a lot of area to cover from one side to the other. Plus, as a criminal... wouldn't you seek out easy targets? You know... places where its highly unlikely people will be armed or able to defend themselves?

Also, as long as there is private firearm ownership, you run the risk of people acting foolishly, be it due to alcohol, drugs, or emotion. We have to let our laws do their work and let people defend themselves accordingly.

As for the NRA's position on doctors, there is already a big to do about doctors refusing patients or their children because there are firearms in the household. This is the one thing that concerns me about what I wrote toward the beginning of this thread. Mixing medical practice and politics is a tough issue imo, at least until it is illegal to refuse care or patients that are simply exercising their constitutional rights.

 

[M1911]

I don't see why onme would need to carry a concealed weapon to a sporting event or someplace that is private property. I know most responsible gun owners will stay repsonsible but how about the drunk gun carrier that gets irritated his team lossed or harrassed by another fan and then whips his firearm out as a threat or to use it. There's plenty of trained armed personnel at games and such we don't need another firearm i the mix.

Ron:

Those trained and armed personnel aren't going to accompany me to and from the event, which is where I am most likely to be attacked. And even at the event, those armed personnel aren't everywhere all the time.

Nor will my employer provide trained and armed personnel to accompany me to and from work. In fact, my employer doesn't have any trained and armed personnel on site, so if someone decides to pull a nutter, I'm on my own for at least 4 minutes before police arrive.

If I knew that I was going to need a gun at a certain place and time, then I wouldn't go there. Unfortunately, my crystal ball is on the fritz, so I don't know when and where I might need a gun. What I do know is that if I ever need a gun, I'll need it real bad and I'll need it right now.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away. In almost all of these active shooter incidents, the police are simply historians with guns - by the time they get there, all they can do is take pictures, tag toes, and draw chalk outlines.

As for someone being drunk and carrying, that is already illegal. Driving drunk is illegal, but we don't outlaw driving to restaurants because someone might get drunk and then drive.

Ron, as states have liberalized concealed carry laws, lots of doomsayers said "there will be blood in streets" because people carrying guns will "snap" and shoot people over road rage, etc. That simply didn't happen. The percentage of concealed carry holders who are arrested is far, far less than the average person. The idea that people shouldn't be allowed to carry here or there because they then might do this or that is the same idea and wrong for the same reasons.

 

[MtnT4R]

how about the drunk gun carrier that gets irritated his team lossed or harrassed by another fan and then whips his firearm out as a threat or to use it.

This would be 2 or more felony counts. If you bear the responsibility to ccw, you just aren't going to do this.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

I guess the walk to and from can get a little interesting in areas but fortunatly for us our major sports venues don't really have that issue but I know some areas around sports venues is pretty bad. I've been going to several Bronco games a season since '86 and countless Rockies and Avalanche games and concerts in downtown and I've never seen any violence to and from the venue but we know it happens like the LA Dodgers incident which somebody with a firearm may have helped that guy that got beaten severly.
There was that shooting in Civic center park in Denver during the 420 celebration but another firearm wouldn't have helped that situation especially when there was 100 police on foot and horseback right in the immediate area.
We were a few miles east of that at the Cannabis Cup and security was much lighter but so was the crowd and with 10,000 people attending that event over the weekend there was not one arrest.

 

[bofa]

I guess the walk to and from can get a little interesting in areas but fortunatly for us our major sports venues don't really have that issue but I know some areas around sports venues is pretty bad. I've been going to several Bronco games a season since '86 and countless Rockies and Avalanche games and concerts in downtown and I've never seen any violence to and from the venue but we know it happens like the LA Dodgers incident which somebody with a firearm may have helped that guy that got beaten severly.
There was that shooting in Civic center park in Denver during the 420 celebration but another firearm wouldn't have helped that situation especially when there was 100 police on foot and horseback right in the immediate area.
We were a few miles east of that at the Cannabis Cup and security was much lighter but so was the crowd and with 10,000 people attending that event over the weekend there was not one arrest.

Yeah, from what I remember about the downtown area, most of the "questionable" areas are immediately north/northeast of the where the capital etc are, right? There's really not much around the stadium except businesses and most of the housing around Coors field is high end lofts and apartments. I will say that Denver does pretty well to control drifters and vagrants, especially around DNC time... :lol:

 

[M1911]

I guess the walk to and from can get a little interesting in areas but fortunatly for us our major sports venues don't really have that issue but I know some areas around sports venues is pretty bad.

You are still operating under the assumption that you are fine in "safe" areas. Bad things happen even in "safe" areas. Cheshire, CT is a rich, "safe" suburb of Hartford. And yet two ex-cons invaded a home, assaulted a man, raped his wife and one of his daughters, tied the three women to beds and then set fire to the house. Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bad things can happen anywhere. I don't carry so that I can go to bad neighborhoods -- I don't go to bad neighborhoods.

 

[MtnT4R]

Yeah, from what I remember about the downtown area, most of the "questionable" areas are immediately north/northeast of the where the capital etc are, right?

haha yeah you will get to know Colfax real well when you get here. Its a pretty major thoroughfare, but when you drive it end to end, its: sketchy sketchy sketchy, gold domed capitol building, federal buildings, nice art, then immediately back to sketchy sketchy. Its interesting that it intersects so many important areas of Denver, but definitely not a place you would find me in pedestrian mode after dark

 

[04rnr]

not sure if the "gun grab" is over or even close, I just called The Glock Store, looking for a 19 g4, they told me I can pre order one, it will take 6-9 MONTHS :shrug:

 

[RonMAIDEN]

You are still operating under the assumption that you are fine in "safe" areas. Bad things happen even in "safe" areas. Cheshire, CT is a rich, "safe" suburb of Hartford.

Bad things can happen anywhere. I don't carry so that I can go to bad neighborhoods -- I don't go to bad neighborhoods.

I'm not assuming they are safe areas around the venues (in the Venues I feel fine) but I do know the areas and I stay keenly aware and alert plus I'm not carrying much on my for anybody to steal and that's on purpose. Being smart is half the battle.

 

[MtnT4R]

Bad things can happen anywhere. I don't carry so that I can go to bad neighborhoods -- I don't go to bad neighborhoods.

I had this talk recently with someone. Its not safety in actuality- its the PERCEPTION of safety. Where I grew up, nobody in my neighborhood locked their front doors, and sometimes left their garage doors open in the summer. Violence is not prevalent here by any means, but one day back when ted bundy was doing his thing, he rolled through our town, knocked a girl out in a parking garage, threw her in the trunk, drove her into utah and killed her. no trace was ever found. If thats not enough to remain constantly vigilant, I dont know what would motivate you

 

[JohnnyT]

What M1911 wrote is spot on... it's a long post but any naysayers would do well to read it to understand why the senate proposal was a joke. The only thing it really tried to curb was private sales outside a gun shows and advertising private sales online (like on armslist). But the giant gaping loophole was that sales to friends and family were exempt... think about that and let it sink in. Define "friend".

Is there a link to the actual proposal?

 

[Thai]

I guess the walk to and from can get a little interesting in areas but fortunatly for us our major sports venues don't really have that issue but I know some areas around sports venues is pretty bad. I've been going to several Bronco games a season since '86 and countless Rockies and Avalanche games and concerts in downtown and I've never seen any violence to and from the venue but we know it happens like the LA Dodgers incident which somebody with a firearm may have helped that guy that got beaten severly.
There was that shooting in Civic center park in Denver during the 420 celebration but another firearm wouldn't have helped that situation especially when there was 100 police on foot and horseback right in the immediate area.
We were a few miles east of that at the Cannabis Cup and security was much lighter but so was the crowd and with 10,000 people attending that event over the weekend there was not one arrest.

Remember, a CCW does NOT mean that I am a cop, nor pretend to be one. I am not a SEAL. CCW allows me to protect myself and my family. THAT is it. Nothing more to write about. Unless there is clear indication that I can help the situation (e.g. raping right in front of my eyes in close proximity with clear line of sight), my sole purpose in life is to protect myself and my family with my handgun. The rest of the crowd is on their own. So, yeah, cops still have their duty to protect other folks...I protect what I have.

I'm not assuming they are safe areas around the venues (in the Venues I feel fine) but I do know the areas and I stay keenly aware and alert plus I'm not carrying much on my for anybody to steal and that's on purpose. Being smart is half the battle.

Being alert & smart are great. But, being smart & alert with a conceal carry weapon to solely protect you (and your family) is even smarter.

Unfortunately, by the time that a robber/mugger finds that you have little on you, it is already too late. Do you think that all murdered victims of mugging/robbing have lots of cash on them??? I understand your thinking...but it is also a flawed way of thinking in today's world.

 

[bofa]

Is there a link to the actual proposal?

I believe this link has the latest version...

Bill Text - 113th Congress (2013-2014) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

 

[aha2988]

the LA Dodgers incident which somebody with a firearm may have helped that guy that got beaten severly.
There was that shooting in Civic center park in Denver during the 420 celebration but another firearm wouldn't have helped that situation especially when there was 100 police on foot and horseback right in the immediate area.

I was going to say it's not a right of a CCW holder to protect a bystander, in fact it's illegal. You can only legally draw your weapon if you or your families life is in fact threatened with deadly force. A concealed carry permit does not give you the ability to save people from being beaten up in a fight. Or the ability to threaten someone beating up another person. Or the ablility to hold someone in containment until authorities arive. A CCW only gives you the ability to conceal your weapon on your body or in close proximity to be used if necessary. It does not make you a citizen protector...

But Thai beat me to it lol.

 

[bofa]

I was going to say it's not a right of a CCW holder to protect a bystander, in fact it's illegal. You can only legally draw your weapon if you or your families life is in fact threatened with deadly force. A concealed carry permit does not give you the ability to save people from being beaten up in a fight. Or the ability to threaten someone beating up another person. Or the ablility to hold someone in containment until authorities arive. A CCW only gives you the ability to conceal your weapon on your body or in close proximity to be used if necessary. It does not make you a citizen protector...

But Thai beat me to it lol.

It depends on the state. In FL I could defend others if their life is in danger or to prevent a forcible felony.

That said, the gun only comes out if I intend to immediately pull the trigger and can justify deadly force.

 

[BrianSD_42]

“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

George Orwell

Not to be a jerk (pls don't take offense) but when I read this I thought it didn't sound like Orwell (whose works I have read many times); a quick google search produced ....


People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf |

In April 1993 the columnist Richard Grenier published a newspaper article containing the text that QI believes became the source of the quotation that was later attributed to Orwell. Here is a longer excerpt [RGGO] [RGIO]:

When the country is in danger, the military’s mission is to wreak destruction upon the enemy. It’s a harsh and bloody business, but that’s what the military’s for. As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

There were no quotation marks in this passage because Grenier was not quoting Orwell. Instead he was presenting a compact statement of the stance that he assigned to Orwell. Grenier’s 1981 essay prefigured this 1993 statement.

In conclusion, QI believes that this saying was introduced by Richard Grenier who was attempting to provide a pithy representation of an idea he ascribed to George Orwell. Later writers and speakers turned his phrase into a quotation and directly attached it to Orwell. Over time variants were constructed with modified phrasing.

Orwell did make statements that shared points of similarity with the saying, but none closely match it.

 

[Thai]

I was going to say it's not a right of a CCW holder to protect a bystander, in fact it's illegal. You can only legally draw your weapon if you or your families life is in fact threatened with deadly force. A concealed carry permit does not give you the ability to save people from being beaten up in a fight. Or the ability to threaten someone beating up another person. Or the ablility to hold someone in containment until authorities arive. A CCW only gives you the ability to conceal your weapon on your body or in close proximity to be used if necessary. It does not make you a citizen protector...

But Thai beat me to it lol.

Yup. The weird thing about all of this is that...RonM and JohnnyT etc all know this already! This is like the 1000th thread on guns. Nothing written here is new...well, maybe except M1911's post which was particularly good.

The problem here is that the left (RonM and JohnnyT etc.) used this argument (CCW people as gun blazing reckless individuals) over and over and over again to further their liberal argument. Of course, they have no evidence to back up anything...because none exist! But, damn it, they try their damnest to paint the worst picture of CCW owners. And then they wonder (or cry foul) why NRA has to go to extremes to get something more middle-of-the-road policies for Americans.

Look, if everyone uses their God-given common sense, then we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. Laws and Regulations are already there. We have to enforce it better. We need fundings for such actions. It would be nice for the damn government to save money (aka cut back on sub of subcommittees fixing nothing; salaries and benefits of senators who do nothing but argue endlessly) and put all that money and energy into enforcing existing laws & regs. It ain't hard to do. As noted by me before, the problem is that this solution won't get anyone elected and frankly, ain't cool for the liberal atmosphere in Washington!

RonM and JohnnyT, it would be nice that you guys try to understand gun ownership and our rights before barking nonsense. And if you still don't get the idea of CCW, then damn it, EDUCATE YOURSELF on what it entails.

Thanks and have a good day. Geez.

 

[Thai]

It depends on the state. In FL I could defend others if their life is in danger or to prevent a forcible felony.

That said, the gun only comes out if I intend to immediately pull the trigger and can justify deadly force.

Although true, BUT, hell no, I have my CCW to protect me and my family. If you go outside of that, then it is very tricky especially if you're outside of Texas! Even in Texas, I would not use my CCW to defend someone else and/or someone else's property. There are exceptions to what I say...but they are very rare and very limited in scope (as written above). I like to say that I am a Navy SEAL in my mind and in Modern Combat games, but in real life, I am just a regular Joe defending myself and family against the evildoers that threatened my family's safety with deadly force.

 

[BrianSD_42]

This is like the 1000th thread on guns. Nothing written here is new...well, maybe except M1911's post which was particularly good.

Very true.


I am wondering how the Libertarian and Conservatives here (I'm pretty much an independant on a large range of issues) feel about the talk by McCain and Gramm requesting the President declare the Boston bomber who is a US Citizen a enemy combatant, denying him a trial by jury. They both acknowledged that the US courts might eventually rule on the issue or enemy combatants.

Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence

:snacker:

 

[bofa]

Although true, BUT, hell no, I have my CCW to protect me and my family. If you go outside of that, then it is very tricky especially if you're outside of Texas! Even in Texas, I would not use my CCW to defend someone else and/or someone else's property. There are exceptions to what I say...but they are very rare and very limited in scope (as written above). I like to say that I am a Navy SEAL in my mind and in Modern Combat games, but in real life, I am just a regular Joe defending myself and family against the evildoers that threatened my family's safety with deadly force.

Yeah, I'm not really sure how I would react on the behalf of others and think it would depend on the situation. I can't realistically say I would refuse to help others no matter what... it's just not in me.