KDSS Long term reliability?

[be77solo]

Are folks actually seeing $1800 price increase? I've never seen a non KDSS trail in the wild. I don't think many or any make it to my market area. For a KDSS Trail Premium I paid $37.5k OTD. Are you seeing non KDSS TEPs in the sub $36k range? Or is KDSS really more like a $500-1000 option that has an MSRP of $1800?

This is the more realistic scenario.... there is so much wheeling and dealing with buying a vehicle, who knows what each item actually "costs", but I basically haggled as that I didn't need it and wasn't going to pay for it, and we found a meeting ground in overall price out the door for the vehicle.

Being totally honest though, I drove a SR5 and was disappointed and then drove the Trail w/KDSS and was pleasantly surprised with the difference. For me it had nothing to do with any possible off-road benefit (as any 4wd 4Runner will suffice for my actual needs), but the KDSS was just simply more enjoyable to drive on the road where I spend most of my time. I really wanted it, and glad I have it. And if in 8 years I need to service or repair it, I'll cross that bridge then and keep enjoying it. I'm a fan of the system after having driven both, and so far very happy with it during daily driving.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Are folks actually seeing $1800 price increase? I've never seen a non KDSS trail in the wild. I don't think many or any make it to my market area. For a KDSS Trail Premium I paid $37.5k OTD. Are you seeing non KDSS TEPs in the sub $36k range? Or is KDSS really more like a $500-1000 option that has an MSRP of $1800?

Depending on what other options you have, sounds to me like you got a smoking deal.

TE's here in Denver are usually spoken for before they get off the truck and there is very little wiggle room on the price.

 

[Thai]

How so?...he pretty much nailed it...."better suited for on road driving than off"
Does it work on road? Yes. It is worth $1800? HELL MOTHER TRUCKING NO.

KDSS: allows for better on-road handling thru thicker (than normal) anti-roll bars...yet allows for easy articulation off-road. Better handling than SR5 on-road...better articulation than SR5 off-road.

Is it as good as "a set of quick disconnects"? Nearly as good. BUT, does "a set of quick discos" provide good stability on-road? Hell no. And yeah, i do NOT need to get out of my car repeatedly to disconnect and then re-connect over certain terrains!

Is KDSS for hardcore off-roaders? Of course not...but then hardcore off-roaders would probably not pick a 4runner to begin with.

KDSS is basically good for 90% of weekend folks who like to go places off pavement with a good set of tires.

Is it worth $1800? Hmmm, looking around this forum, i have seen plenty of folks spent much more than $1800 on mods that offer far less REAL WORLD capability on-road and off-road. Hell, i have seen folks spend almost as much on spot lights and LEDs!

Now for reliability...would you consider a system that costs $1200 (just a guess) after 80-100k miles a problem?

How long do those aftermarket lift kits last? How about those cracked CV joints that happen every 10-20 k miles? How about those clunks? How much are those drop diff kits? How about wear and tear on transmission? There are many things that people do for off-road that are far LESS reliable than average life of KDSS.

 

[stiles_s]

I bought a '07 GX470 new w/KDSS and drove it 100k miles without a single issue w/the KDSS. Not many GXs had KDSS, but I don't recall a single thread about failure in the 7 years I spent on the forum.

It's a battle tested system. As long as Toyota didn't cheapen it w/the 4runner, I think we can rest easily.

And, to +1 the other comments. For me, the benefit is the huge swaybars reducing sway on road. I will rarely make use of it off-road.

 

[K9trainer]

From Toyota
Kinetic Dynamic Suspension System (KDSS) optimally adjusts the front and rear stabiliser bars based on the movement of hydraulic cylinders. High roll rigidity is provided to suppress body roll and give superior on road performance while wheel articulation has been improved for excellent off road traction. KDSS requires no power source.
KDSS is an advanced suspension technology that reduces the compromises sometimes necessary in an off-road vehicle by providing longer wheel articulation off-road and greater body roll control on-road.

KDSS is an automatic, permanently active system that uses hydraulic linking of the suspension to effectively disconnect the stabiliser bars in off-road conditions where additional suspension travel is beneficial in keeping all four wheels firmly planted on the ground.

On-road, the stabilisers operate at their full potential, minimising body roll when cornering and enhancing steering response.

 

[wfo9]

It funny how so many people wo KDSS worry about what it will cost to repair if needed, it's just like any thing else, AC, Tires, shocks etc, if it breaks fix it, what's the big deal?

I think you missed the part about it being a unicorn in the grand scheme of auto repair. ... With all these other things you mention , AC, tires, shocks... They are universal, on every car in the world, so any mechanic can replace as long as he can order the parts. All his tools and knowledge carry over....

KDSS is not like that. It is a one-off system that is on no other production car in the world. And to be honest, Toyota does a poor job of equipping dealerships (or anyone else) to deal with it.

If you are going to own the truck for a few (5-7) years and sell it... then no worries. If you were to buy a 10 year old used model with it... then you should think twice.

 

[Thai]

KDSS is not like that. It is a one-off system that is on no other production car in the world. And to be honest, Toyota does a poor job of equipping dealerships (or anyone else) to deal with it.

And? Is Toyota unique in this? Why would Toyota equipped Jiffy Lube with equipment to fix KDSS?

Is it possible that some rinky dink Toyota dealership far from big city not have equipment to fix KDSS? Sure. That is up to the Toyota dealership owner(s) to buy. In the not so far past (in my experience), a few Toyota dealers in big city did not have Hunter 9700 machine to road force tires! It took time & money & complaints from customers.

But, lets get back to your original complaint...how is Toyota KDSS any different than...Acura SH-AWD, Jeep/Chrysler/Acura 9-speed ZF transmission, hybrids of the world, Tesla, Mercedes/BMW diesels, etc.. Each of these require a visit to your local OEM dealer...not so easy to find independent shops that can fix/repair these things. So, should we just not buy these things? Boy, if that was the case, then you're stuck with a Toyota Corolla...but that may change soon too...how about a bicycle?

How about your 2011 4runner with those fancy ICON stuff? How much did you spend on parts and labor? More than $1800? Yeah, your 4runner may have more off-road capability after those mods...but i would bet that a KDSS 4runner will run circles around your 4runner on-road. KDSS (with proper tires & driver) is all about balance. Can a KDSS 4runner keep up with your 4runner off-road? I am pretty sure it can thru most terrain. Can your 4runner keep up with KDSS on-road to same degree as KDSS matching your off-road ability? I am not so sure.

And if there is a terrain that needed a vehicle that requires lifts, front & rear lockers, hardcore sliders, big tires...then i would get a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

Cost out of the way...IF you break your suspension on the way to North Dakota (for example), then are you so sure that you can find a reliable shop that can fix it? Hell, i would bet that a KDSS owner has MORE places to go to fix his KDSS (by virtue of having a Toyota dealership in every big city) than you and your 4runner to fix your modded suspension!!

Do you think that your 2011 4runner will last over 10 yrs without repair with your lift, big tires, re-gearing? Do you carry extra CV boots and axles in your 4runner? I would. You think that the OTHER components of the 4runner will last that long from your mods putting un-intended stress on them? I would put money on the KDSS vehicle. Wouldn't you?

 

[K9trainer]

Here's what the equipment looks like
Toyota and Lexus KDSS service and repair

 

[Greenamphibious]

KDSS is like a TRDPro. Those that spent the money for it will defend it tooth an nail like it is some sort of magical unicorn. Those of us cheap bastards that didnt spring for it will bash it to the end of times just because we dont have it

 

[sandcrawler]

KDSS is like a TRDPro. Those that spent the money for it will defend it tooth an nail like it is some sort of magical unicorn.

i couldn't disagree more. KDSS owners aren't starting new threads crowing about it or organizing exclusive meet-ups. most have nothing at all to say about it until a noob doing pre-purchase research asks a question, at which point they'll share their experiences/thoughts—and invariably this is when those without it will barge in to bash the system. and this is where your "magical unicorn" rears its head: KDSS is almost universally misunderstood.

let's be real: the TRD Pro is an appearance package*; KDSS is an optional mechanical system that performs a discrete function. KDSS is outwardly invisible (to all but the most learned), so absolutely no one is buying KDSS for vanity, ego, or aesthetics. only a side-by-side test drive makes its utility blatantly obvious, but if after doing so you still didn't feel it was "worth it", then that's your prerogative.

Those of us cheap bastards that didnt spring for it will bash it to the end of times just because we dont have it

i entirely agree with this part.

*TRD Pro owners: don't be offended. there's certainly value/utility in better stock tires and shocks covered by a factory warranty. largely speaking, though, the Pro is an appearance package. and that's perfectly fine. and cool.

 

[RCFJ]

KDSS: allows for better on-road handling thru thicker (than normal) anti-roll bars...yet allows for easy articulation off-road. Better handling than SR5 on-road...better articulation than SR5 off-road.

Is it as good as "a set of quick disconnects"? Nearly as good. BUT, does "a set of quick discos" provide good stability on-road? Hell no. And yeah, i don't need to get out of my car repeatedly to disconnect and then re-connect over certain terrains!

Is KDSS for hardcore off-roaders? Of course not...but then hardcore off-roaders would probably not pick a 4runner to begin with.

KDSS is basically good for 90% of weekend folks who like to go places off pavement with a good set of tires.

Is it worth $1800? Hmmm, looking around this forum, i have seen plenty of folks spent much more than $1800 on mods that offer far less REAL WORLD capability on-road and off-road. Hell, i have seen folks spend almost as much on spot lights and LEDs!

Now for reliability...would you consider a system that costs $1200 (just a guess) after 80-100k miles a problem?

How long do those aftermarket lift kits last? How about those cracked CV joints that happen every 10-20 k miles? How about those clunks? How much are those drop diff kits? How about wear and tear on transmission? There are many things that people do for off-road that are far LESS reliable than average life of KDSS.

And? Is Toyota unique in this? Why would Toyota equipped Jiffy Lube with equipment to fix KDSS?

Is it possible that some rinky dink Toyota dealership far from big city not have equipment to fix KDSS? Sure. That is up to the Toyota dealership owner(s) to buy. In the not so far past (in my experience), a few Toyota dealers in big city did not have Hunter 9700 machine to road force tires! It took time & money & complaints from customers.

But, lets get back to your original complaint...how is Toyota KDSS any different than...Acura SH-AWD, Jeep/Chrysler/Acura 9-speed ZF transmission, hybrids of the world, Tesla, Mercedes/BMW diesels, etc.. Each of these require a visit to your local OEM dealer...not so easy to find independent shops that can fix/repair these things. So, should we just not buy these things? Boy, if that was the case, then you're stuck with a Toyota Corolla...but that may change soon too...how about a bicycle?

How about your 2011 4runner with those fancy ICON stuff? How much did you spend on parts and labor? More than $1800? Yeah, your 4runner may have more off-road capability after those mods...but i would bet that a KDSS 4runner will run circles around your 4runner on-road. KDSS (with proper tires & driver) is all about balance. Can a KDSS 4runner keep up with your 4runner off-road? I am pretty sure it can thru most terrain. Can your 4runner keep up with KDSS on-road to same degree as KDSS matching your off-road ability? I am not so sure.

And if there is a terrain that needed a vehicle that requires lifts, front & rear lockers, hardcore sliders, big tires...then i would get a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

Cost out of the way...IF you break your suspension on the way to North Dakota (for example), then are you so sure that you can find a reliable shop that can fix it? Hell, i would bet that a KDSS owner has MORE places to go to fix his KDSS (by virtue of having a Toyota dealership in every big city) than you and your 4runner to fix your modded suspension!!

Do you think that your 2011 4runner will last over 10 yrs without repair with your lift, big tires, re-gearing? Do you carry extra CV boots and axles in your 4runner? I would. You think that the OTHER components of the 4runner will last that long from your mods putting un-intended stress on them? I would put money on the KDSS vehicle. Wouldn't you?

I wrote up a 2 page sarcastic commentary responding to all your points. But I think this says it better.

You are a tool, you are clueless. Peddle that "keep your 4Runner stock and go buy a Jeep Rubicon" shit elsewhere.

 

[RCFJ]

only a side-by-side test drive makes its utility blatantly obvious, but if after doing so you still didn't feel it was "worth it", then that's your prerogative.

Fair enough. I can live with that. Except for the word blatantly

 

[sandcrawler]

Fair enough. I can live with that. Except for the word blatantly

:cheers:

 

[Thai]

I wrote up a 2 page sarcastic commentary responding to all your points. But I think this says it better.

You are a tool, you are clueless. Peddle that "keep your 4Runner stock and go buy a Jeep Rubicon" shit elsewhere.

LOL. Thanks dude. Just keeping it real....

 

[Jetboy]

I will say it's odd that Toyota almost goes out of its way to make KDSS seem really complex to bleed. It's just a hydraulic system with some nitrogen charged accumulators. I'm confident you could charge the accumulators with air. Nitrogen is nice because it's dry and pure, but in reality we're just looking for something to provide pressurized resistance. And it should be bleedable at low pressure and then use the KDSS cylinders with a jack to pressurize the system. All we'd really need to do is calculate the proper volume necessary to reach the system pressure, bleed with the cylinder extended enough so that when re-set to neutral it compresses the right pressure back to the system.

This isn't rocket science. It's gotta be be fixable and bleedable by a tractor repair shop.

I'd really like to build a long travel version for my rock crawler and may do that down the road. I have a pretty complete fab shop in my garage, so that changes my costs of course, but I think I could build a complete passive KDSS system for about $500 plus a couple big sway bars.

 

[RCFJ]

LOL. Thanks dude. Just keeping it real....

Well sometimes keeping it real goes wrong.

 

[Jetboy]

You are a tool, you are clueless. Peddle that "keep your 4Runner stock and go buy a Jeep Rubicon" shit elsewhere.

That's right! At least buy a land cruiser! If you're serious about going on harder off road trails I'm in the camp that a dedicated trail rig is a much better financial choice. My $10k FJ40 will run circles around the most heavily built 5th gen in existence ... in 2wd.

The 4runner is great for mild to medium trails, seats 4, and is comfortable on longer distance trips. And makes a pretty solid daily driver. Spending a week at a time out of my FJ40 gets a tad big cramped. And the 4runner goes pretty much everywhere I'm wanting to go on those types of camping trips. It has its place for sure. Hard core offroad just isn't one of them.

 

[Intruder]

This thread is so full of win. So much speculation but no evidence. Where are all the people who've had endless problems with KDSS and couldn't get it fixed because no Toyota dealership had the equipment? I know one person locally who accidentally bled his KDSS while trying to fix the driver's side lean after he lifted his 4Runner. His dealership did not have the tools on hand but was able to rent them from Toyota and recharge his system. It took a few extra days for them to get the equipment but everything was good as new after.

I've got over 115,000 km on my TE (in Canada all TEs come with KDSS) and it probably sees more time on the trails - actual trails, not logging roads and fire roads - than 99% of the 4Runners out there. I've had to replace lower control arms, have a dent in one of my BB skids, and have broken a CV when my LR UCA ball joint failed. Never had a single problem with KDSS yet. I've searched IH8MUD and googled for KDSS failures on 4Runners and LCs without any luck. Maybe there'll be some problems with it down the road just as all mechanical things wear and tear. Automatic transmissions aren't cheap to repair or replace either, and they were "unicorns" once too.

 

[RCFJ]

That's right! At least buy a land cruiser! If you're serious about going on harder off road trails I'm in the camp that a dedicated trail rig is a much better financial choice. My $10k FJ40 will run circles around the most heavily built 5th gen in existence ... in 2wd.

The 4runner is great for mild to medium trails, seats 4, and is comfortable on longer distance trips. And makes a pretty solid daily driver. Spending a week at a time out of my FJ40 gets a tad big cramped. And the 4runner goes pretty much everywhere I'm wanting to go on those types of camping trips. It has its place for sure. Hard core offroad just isn't one of them.

I agree but the 4runner is remarkably capable off road with a mild build. And you don't need a $60k built rubicon to get to the majority of places

 

[1engineer]

I will say it's odd that Toyota almost goes out of its way to make KDSS seem really complex to bleed. It's just a hydraulic system with some nitrogen charged accumulators. I'm confident you could charge the accumulators with air. Nitrogen is nice because it's dry and pure, but in reality we're just looking for something to provide pressurized resistance. And it should be bleedable at low pressure and then use the KDSS cylinders with a jack to pressurize the system. All we'd really need to do is calculate the proper volume necessary to reach the system pressure, bleed with the cylinder extended enough so that when re-set to neutral it compresses the right pressure back to the system.

This isn't rocket science. It's gotta be be fixable and bleedable by a tractor repair shop.

I'd really like to build a long travel version for my rock crawler and may do that down the road. I have a pretty complete fab shop in my garage, so that changes my costs of course, but I think I could build a complete passive KDSS system for about $500 plus a couple big sway bars.

Nitrogen is inert and non explosive.
Yes, it is not rocket science but it is an exacting task. Sure, you could build one for $500 but at that price it won't perform anything like the OEM unit. Valves alone will double that amount. Electronics to control the valves, accumulators (1qt bladder is around $300/ea), cylinders and the sweet synthetic hydraulic fluid you need so it won't be rigid on a zero degree day for the first 20 minutes and useless after the next 20 minutes. I venture to say just the cylinder seal kit alone (viton or equivalent) will cost close to $200 for the rod bearing and piston for two cylinders. Pretty sure it will be cheaper to get the whole kit from Toyota lol.