jbstrd
New member
Yep, all TE's (with or without KDSS) are equipped with these features.
KDSS worth it?
- Thread starter diver110
- Start date
Yep, all TE's (with or without KDSS) are equipped with these features.
AirspeedX
New member
I don't have KDSS and I still love my TE. I'm no extreme off-roader (yet) but if and when the time comes, I plan on installing a full on Icon suspension setup with the sway-bar disconnects.
If the deal came, I wouldn't not get a KDSS 4R but for me, it wasn't a deal breaker by not having it installed.
If the deal came, I wouldn't not get a KDSS 4R but for me, it wasn't a deal breaker by not having it installed.
eddiebx
New member
Here is 1 reason KDSS isn't worth it. At 83k miles the KDSS on my wife's GX470 is seeping at the rear piston.
To replace this piston and to bleed the system is $1500!!!
Just out of curiosity willy, did you ever get this fixed, and if so did you go for all the recommended parts? I wonder if a set of new shocks all around might fix your noise issue in the complaint. Supposedly, a little seepage out of the KDSS pistons is "okay", but that's just hearsay of course.
Kind of sucks that replacing ONE piston costs you as much as the the price of adding the entire KDSS option all together when new, lol.
simplemind
New member
Not to cause a flame war, but I had to educate myself on a recent purchase. I owned a 2010 TE w/ KDSS. Currently they don't offer the KDSS option in my region, so my only local option was to take a 2014 TE w/o KDSS. I didn't like it, so I had to read up on the KDSS option. What was interesting is I found the "ride and handling" the same with either unit. In fact the 2014 is a bit more (perceived) smoother, but the sway or lean in corners is the same. Somewhere I read that the TE option incorporates a Bilstein shock regardless of whether the KDSS option is present or not, which probably explains the similar ride characteristic. It's not fair to compare TE handling to SR5 handling. They use different components.
If I understand KDSS, it is active when the suspension is at an extreme angle so that the sway bar is dis-engaged for a higher degree of articulation. The following is a quote from an online review "KDSS significantly improves terrain-following ability by dynamically disconnecting stabilizer bars to allow for more axle travel, and better suspension articulation in slow, difficult terrain". I think this is similar to the Jeep Rubicon manual system.
This would in no way suggests that in typical highway or light trail use the KDSS system would ever come into play. It doesn't.
Many people that have paid money for a given option "think" that it's the bees knees and the most profound bit of technology and they find value in it "because they own it", not because they use it. Of course, there are those hard core off-roaders that really demand off-road performance, and for them KDSS makes sense, but generally they are the exception when it comes to the typical 4r owners.
In my 60k miles of owning the KDSS system in my 2010, it never once invoked. I do use my 4R on Colorado jeep trails, but zero mudding/bouldering. Would I spend the money for KDSS it it were available now, probably not, because I would choose a different vehicle for that type of abuse (the wheelbase is just too long).
Just an FYI.:thumb3:
If I understand KDSS, it is active when the suspension is at an extreme angle so that the sway bar is dis-engaged for a higher degree of articulation. The following is a quote from an online review "KDSS significantly improves terrain-following ability by dynamically disconnecting stabilizer bars to allow for more axle travel, and better suspension articulation in slow, difficult terrain". I think this is similar to the Jeep Rubicon manual system.
This would in no way suggests that in typical highway or light trail use the KDSS system would ever come into play. It doesn't.
Many people that have paid money for a given option "think" that it's the bees knees and the most profound bit of technology and they find value in it "because they own it", not because they use it. Of course, there are those hard core off-roaders that really demand off-road performance, and for them KDSS makes sense, but generally they are the exception when it comes to the typical 4r owners.
In my 60k miles of owning the KDSS system in my 2010, it never once invoked. I do use my 4R on Colorado jeep trails, but zero mudding/bouldering. Would I spend the money for KDSS it it were available now, probably not, because I would choose a different vehicle for that type of abuse (the wheelbase is just too long).
Just an FYI.:thumb3:
eddiebx
New member
Not sure about the 14' models, but on the 10'-13' TEs, the factory shocks and springs are the same ones that come on the SR5, hence why people here compare it to that.
The online review you quoted is a bit misleading, it's not quite an actual sway bar disconnect as they describe it. The main benefit of the KDSS setup is that they come with much thicker sway bars, for better on-road handling. I'd be surprised if you drove a KDSS and a non-KDSS model back to back and not be able to notice the difference through the curves at highway speeds.
This might sound counter intuitive, but KDSS is probably better for the less hardcore off-roaders because it's main benefit is versatility...drive straight off the highway onto the beaten path, out the other end and back on the highway without a hitch. No need to worry about having a sway bar off-road, not having a sway bar on-road, etc., it just works, and pretty well at that
From what I can tell by reading other's build threads here, the KDSS components actually get in the way for the super serious off-roaders (due to incompatibility with their extensive mods), and they end up ditching it all together.
LandCruiser
New member
I know a friend who's running a GX470 off roader and he gutted the KDSS and air springs.
It's a great trail rig.
It's a great trail rig.
He had to get rid of the kdss as kdss won't work with his aftermarket non air setup. It has nothing to do with how he feels about kdss. He essentially pillaged his stock ahc system which is pricey and a bit ghetto IMO.
Kdss is amazing stuff. Is it worth it? No doubt. The truck drives better period. It's always working.
I lifted my truck with kdss. So much misinformed people here misinforming others. Stop it.
Kdss is amazing stuff. Is it worth it? No doubt. The truck drives better period. It's always working.
I lifted my truck with kdss. So much misinformed people here misinforming others. Stop it.
LandCruiser
New member
It makes the truck drive more sporty on road and can eventually leak and/or fail.
Since any real off road vehicle needs a proper sway bar disconnect, or even removal, the off road benetifts of the system or the "multi-terrain-select" are pretty iffy.
It was kind of fun to have the "sporty" feel of the KDSS of my TE when it was new, but all it has accomplished since then was get me charged extra to properly lift the damn thing. I'm sure there's some great benefit of it that I'm missing, but I also have driven various 4x4s with the sway bars completely removed and haven't really noticed.
My FJZ80 hasn't run with sway bars since I lifted it 10 years ago.
Last edited:
simplemind
New member
I'm not being argumentative here, I just hate mis-information, so if I'm wrong, please link the data, and we'll stand corrected. :clap2:
1engineer
Moderator
First let me answer the OP's question then I will get to this quoted post:
Nothing is "worth it" if you, the buyer, does not think so.
First off [MENTION=5957]simplemind[/MENTION], I am not being mean or condescending with this post. Your post is FULL of wrongness though and I don't want any reader to think it's right and go with your information.
"In fact the 2014 is a bit more (perceived) smoother, but the sway or lean in corners is the same. Somewhere I read that the TE option incorporates a Bilstein shock regardless of whether the KDSS option is present or not, which probably explains the similar ride characteristic."
The 2014 TE model could have changed the shocks and springs although I do not think so. Please provide your source for this statement.
"It's not fair to compare TE handling to SR5 handling. They use different components."
Again, please provide data for this statement.
"If I understand KDSS, it is active when the suspension is at an extreme angle so that the sway bar is dis-engaged for a higher degree of articulation. The following is a quote from an online review "KDSS significantly improves terrain-following ability by dynamically disconnecting stabilizer bars to allow for more axle travel, and better suspension articulation in slow, difficult terrain". I think this is similar to the Jeep Rubicon manual system."
You do not understand KDSS. KDSS is ALWAYS operational, from the time you start the vehicle until you turn it off. Please, please read or watch any KDSS video again. You cannot depend on "reviews" for information. You must go to Toyota or someone who knows about that system. I have explained KDSS, [MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION] has explained it, there are videos on this forum explaining it and the internet is full of correct explanations. The sway bar is NEVER disengaged. Off road, it will "move" the swaybar to allow increased articulation. On road, it keeps the swaybar in operation. The TE with KDSS has a much more robust swaybar. On the 10-13 TE w/o KDSS and the SR5 used the exact same suspension. I am not certain the '14 is the same but I have not read any documentation stating otherwise. One of the benefits of KDSS is on the highway. It will definitely reduce body roll around corners. I have owned both and the video here Toyota Land Cruiser 150 - KDSS (Kinetic Dynamic Suspension System) - YouTube is exactly like it is in real life. Please watch this [MENTION=5957]simplemind[/MENTION]. None of this is "like" a Jeep Rubicon. Not even close. The Rubicon actually has sway bar disconnects.
"This would in no way suggests that in typical highway or light trail use the KDSS system would ever come into play. It doesn't."
This statement is a total fabrication. See video above.
"Many people that have paid money for a given option "think" that it's the bees knees and the most profound bit of technology and they find value in it "because they own it", not because they use it. Of course, there are those hard core off-roaders that really demand off-road performance, and for them KDSS makes sense, but generally they are the exception when it comes to the typical 4r owners."
Again, KDSS is operational and working ALL THE TIME. There is improved performance both on and off road. The question is "Do you want to pay for it?"
Finally, for "hard core off-roaders" as you put it KDSS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Actually it's a waste of money. People like [MENTION=74569]SOcalTRAIL[/MENTION] and others remove KDSS because they replace most of the suspension! They put different shocks, springs, UCA's, LCA's install long travel kits and in order to increase their articulation they remove the sway bars completely.
"In my 60k miles of owning the KDSS system in my 2010, it never once invoked. I do use my 4R on Colorado jeep trails, but zero mudding/bouldering. Would I spend the money for KDSS it it were available now, probably not, because I would choose a different vehicle for that type of abuse (the wheelbase is just too long)."
No, in your 60K miles the KDSS was working all the time. It is an automatic system. You don't have to "invoke" it.
As far as it having "too long a wheelbase" I think the Ford Raptor or the Dodge Power Wagon would disagree. Both are exceptional off road.
If you really want to learn about KDSS read this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/141361-kdss-te-vs-non-kdss-sr5.html as it has a lot of great information in there.
Looking forward to your response.
Last edited:
simplemind
New member
Ahh, I flushed out some good information, and not just hearsay... thanks 1engineer!
I'd bet the 2014 is no different than previous 5g's re suspension. It makes it all that more amazing to me that I couldn't "feel" the difference. I also have an '08 Sport (xreas, same tires, MS/2's), and it rides a bit firmer and seems as controlled in turns as my 2010 w/ KDSS. I know that's apples/oranges so maybe I'm not as sensitive sensitive to all the nuances.
I never saw that awesome video in all my searching, but I didn't look at the Landcruiser implementation either.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. :clap2:
Whiplash Willy
New member
Is there a way to disconnect/bypass/lock the KDSS system? If mine really is low on fluid and leaking, I would assume that would cause movement in the system even if it is "unplugged". I haven't seen anything on a workaround for a failed KDSS system in all of my reasearch, and would love to see more info on this if you have any.
Whiplash Willy
New member
Just the stock shocks (parts only) for the GX are $500 for the front and $800 for the rear, and there is no way I would pay that much for stock suspension.
I think to fix the KDSS, it is about $500 for the rear shock, $500 to have lexus install it, and $500 to bleed the KDSS system.
The front driver shock is blown for sure, and I can really feel that, however even though lexus stated the rest of the shocks are just "seeping" I do feel looseness/clunking in the rear, meaning the rest of the shocks are bad, or my KDSS is also bad (Praying it is not)
My plan for the near future is to replace all of my shocks with either:
-Bilstien 5100 ($385)
-Bilstien 4600 HD ($325)
-Stock 4th Gen v8 4Runner OE shocks (Less then $300)
I am still deciding between the 3. Hopefully this will fix my clunking issues, however I am worried that it may not because my rear shocks are just "seeping" like the rear KDSS shock, and I can feel clunking in the rear.
Since the rear KDSS bushing is covered in fluid, the bushing may be bad, and the rest of the swaybar bushings may be bad since I am at 83k miles. If new shocks don't fix it, I will replace all swaybar bushings ($120) and hope that fixes it, because if it isn't, I will have to either fix the KDSS for $$$$, or figure out a way to bypass it. Hopefully it won't come to that. I'll probley do the shocks in the next month or two, and will update my thread for whoever is interested:
Suspension Clunk Over Potholes - Club Lexus Forums
eddiebx
New member
I would be very happy to help with some hard data if you care to participate also. When I have time, I can measure the sway bar diameters on my truck w/ KDSS, and if you could measure your non-KDSS sway bar diameters we can compare
The whole "greater articulation" debate is probably better left un-addressed though, we can all argue till we're blue and still no one's happy, lol.
Regarding your last point about the back to back test drive, I attribute this to the fact that your 911 has set the bar so high that everything else you drive feels like crap, j/k; one thing that comes to mind is we're talking about a 4 year difference and extra wear and tear on the 2010 w/ KDSS? It would probably be more accurate of a test if you tried out a 2014 KDSS model, just for fun.
eddiebx
New member
You can definitely fully disconnect/remove all the hydraulic components and basically just leave the electrical components open. The only issue left is the getting rid of the KDSS check light, which might be a simple work around on paper, but inconclusive because [MENTION=74569]SOcalTRAIL[/MENTION] gave up trying to bypass it, lol. As far as I understand it does not seem to cause any main ECU check lights, and only affects the KDSS ecu, so it shouldn't cause the truck to be running in limp mode with the KDSS light on.
One thing I've always wondered is, if you can some how figure out how to adapt the passenger side "solid" bushing arm onto the driver side in place of the KDSS pistons. If it could work, you'd pretty much be able to keep the sway bars intact and just lose the off-road benefits.
Anyway, it sounds like you're on the right path to fixing it, hopefully swapping out all those bad shocks in each corner help alleviate most of the clucking!
roadracer30
Member
I think the main advantage to KDSS is significantly improved on-road handling. I wasn't interested in the limited, so I never drove that one, but I think it's a big upgrade over the SR5. If you're already paying a lot extra for TE, why not go all the way?
simplemind
New member
I would be very happy to help with some hard data if you care to participate also. When I have time, I can measure the sway bar diameters on my truck w/ KDSS, and if you could measure your non-KDSS sway bar diameters we can compare
I am measuring 1.19" dia. on the 2014 w/o KDSS (front sway bar). I don't have my 2010 w/ KDSS here to measure. And yes, you are right, the Toyota p/n for the SR5 and Trail sway bar is the same, at least in 2010.
Last edited:
simplemind
New member
Couldn't agree more, however they are extremely scarce in the color/options I am looking for. The only ones I've found within a 1500 mile radius has the Sliding Rear Cargo Deck w/Under Floor Storage option which is a deal killer for me. :mad2:
eddiebx
New member
So I just measured my sway bars on the a 2012 w/ KDSS, Front = 43mm and Rear = 30mm. The front bar is kind of ovalish at certain points so I just measured the roundest part near the LCA. Couldn't get my hand behind the skid plate to measure the completely round portion, but I think my measurement is pretty close.
Anyway, compared to your front measurement, that's a good ~10mm increase!
Intruder
New member
Damn, I guess I'm not a hard core off roader then because my KDSS is still hooked up and works just fine.
