leaking rear axle seals: replace housing?

[beklemmung]

I know this topic probably feels beat to death for many people, but I'd appreciate feedback.

My rear axle seals were replaced twice by the PO but are leaking again. I've confirmed that the diff breather isn't clogged, so my thinking is that the bearings likely need to be replaced, especially since there are probably many miles on them with leaking seals and the grease was probably washed out by the leaking diff oil.

I bought all new parts (except for the retainers and ABS rotors, which I want to reuse) to a shop and explained the Dr. Coffee flipped retainer strategy with about 5mm of polished axle showing. They seemed to understand what I was asking for and agreed to do the work.

Today they called me and said that they're concerned that the housing may be reason for the leaks, and that my seals may continue to leak even with new bearings and flipped retainers in the correct position. They're suggesting I consider replacing the housings too, which will add $$.

Does this sound reasonable? They didn't give me a clear reason why they suspected the housing might need to be replaced, other than "age." The truck has never been in an accident and has never done serious off-roading.

Thanks again for everyone's time and expertise.

 

[Bigmd]

I can tell you from experience as I just did this over the summer . My axle seals were bad and locking the rear brakes up with fluid. My housing was rusty but probably could have been reused. But because of my OCD I like putting new stuff back in. I located a housing near me for 200 bucks. I had it blasted and powdercoated by my buddy. It was reinstalled professionally with all Toyota parts. This is what everyone recommends if you haven’t purchased them already . You said it’s been done 2x before ? Do you know what was used? Also I’m sure you know anything on the bottom of the truck can rust bad . Especially if your from the rust belt. It is possible the surface where everything is pressed in has rust and won’t let it seal correctly. I’ve read posts on here where housing center sections rust completely through and have tiny pinhole leaks. Maybe look around for a housing . This way while it’s out you can paint or powdercoat it to prevent future rust.

 

[mtbtim]

Dude, you're in Los Angeles. Unless your rig use to live on the midwest or east coast, I'm guessing your rear axle housing is rust free. So, what is the reason why they are saying the axle housing needs to be replaced?

 

[APhelps]

I know this topic probably feels beat to death for many people, but I'd appreciate feedback.

My rear axle seals were replaced twice by the PO but are leaking again. I've confirmed that the diff breather isn't clogged, so my thinking is that the bearings likely need to be replaced, especially since there are probably many miles on them with leaking seals and the grease was probably washed out by the leaking diff oil.

I bought all new parts (except for the retainers and ABS rotors, which I want to reuse) to a shop and explained the Dr. Coffee flipped retainer strategy with about 5mm of polished axle showing. They seemed to understand what I was asking for and agreed to do the work.

Today they called me and said that they're concerned that the housing may be reason for the leaks, and that my seals may continue to leak even with new bearings and flipped retainers in the correct position. They're suggesting I consider replacing the housings too, which will add $$.

Does this sound reasonable? They didn't give me a clear reason why they suspected the housing might need to be replaced, other than "age." The truck has never been in an accident and has never done serious off-roading.

Thanks again for everyone's time and expertise.

Did you check to see where the retainer was riding before dropping your axles off?

Flipping the retainers isn't really relevant. It allows you some working room I suppose but it really matters not since the retainer needs to be riding on the seal correctly regardless of orientation.

Why would the housing be bad?

 

[RandyBobandy]

I would imagine the seals are failing due to the bearings being bad and not being replaced with the seals, unless the axle housing is bent I can't imagine it could cause the seals to fail and there certainly isn't going to be rust inside the housing. I would find a new shop

 

[beklemmung]

Tim, you're right, the truck is rust-free (spent its entire life in AZ and SoCal). The shop told me that they can't see anything wrong with my housing, but due to the age on the vehicle and the fact that the seals were replaced twice already, he thinks it might be warped (he's "seen it before"). It seemed odd to me but I'm about as n00b as it gets, so thought I'd ask the experts.

APhelps, I haven't dropped the axles so I don't know. My understanding from watching Tim's video and reading past forum threads is that flipping the retainer isn't absolutely necessary but gives some much-needed margin for error with ABS trucks. As I said above in response to Tim, there's no reason for the housing to be bad. The mechanic at the shop made it sound like the fact that the seals were replaced twice before (both times at the Toyota dealership where the truck was purchased by the PO) and the age made it possible that the housing was warped, even though you can't detect anything being wrong.

Randy, thanks, that was my thought as well since the only reference to bad housings that I found in past threads was due to a wreck or being pulled by a single wheel.

I'm going to ask the shop to proceed with the seals and bearings only, and to do a grease test when they're done to make sure the seal is riding close to the middle of the retainer.

 

[RandyBobandy]

I cannot possibly imagine how an axle housing could become warped, that's ridiculous. Bad bearings will definitely cause the seals to fail so I'm sure once those are replaced along with the seals you won't have any more problems

 

[mtbtim]

Tim, you're right, the truck is rust-free (spent its entire life in AZ and SoCal). The shop told me that they can't see anything wrong with my housing, but due to the age on the vehicle and the fact that the seals were replaced twice already, he thinks it might be warped (he's "seen it before"). It seemed odd to me but I'm about as n00b as it gets, so thought I'd ask the experts.

APhelps, I haven't dropped the axles so I don't know. My understanding from watching Tim's video and reading past forum threads is that flipping the retainer isn't absolutely necessary but gives some much-needed margin for error with ABS trucks. As I said above in response to Tim, there's no reason for the housing to be bad. The mechanic at the shop made it sound like the fact that the seals were replaced twice before (both times at the Toyota dealership where the truck was purchased by the PO) and the age made it possible that the housing was warped, even though you can't detect anything being wrong.

Randy, thanks, that was my thought as well since the only reference to bad housings that I found in past threads was due to a wreck or being pulled by a single wheel.

I'm going to ask the shop to proceed with the seals and bearings only, and to do a grease test when they're done to make sure the seal is riding close to the middle of the retainer.

Dude, the reason why this repair hasn't held is not because your axle housing is warped. That would only happen in a very significant accident or hard 4wheeling. The reason why this has failed so many times is the mechanics don't know what the F%ck they are doing. I have said this many times that this has got to be the #1 job Toyota dealerships and other independent shops screw up. It's mainly due to the simple fact that they don't know Toyota redesigned the seals some time in the past. They press the inner retainer onto the axle based on the spec in the factory service manual and they never confirm a good mating of the axle seal with the inner retainer by doing a grease or sharpie test. If these guys would have just confirmed they have a good mating, they would have seen the mating was poor and looked further into why that was happening.

It sounds like you're going to let the shop do the work for you and hopefully they get it right. It sounds like you paid close attention to the videos I made with [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I applaud you for that. We made these videos to benefit people and right now you're probably more knowledgeable than most mechanics regarding this job on a 3rd Gen 4runner or 1st Gen Tacoma.

What you are learning as well as many other guys have learned is the dealership mechanics and other paid mechanics screw up a whole lot. And, they charge you a shit ton of money while screwing up your rig. If you are at all interested in auto mechanics, I encourage you to take up the challenge and do your own work and be better off for it.

 

[beklemmung]

Thanks again guys, I had a feeling this wasn't necessary. Tim, I'm not in a good position to start accumulating tools and, more importantly, actually do the work at home. I made arrangements to meet up with a couple guys from the forum but work scuttled one and then COVID-19 put the other on hold. And anyway, this requires a press... I know there's the loaner program circulating one for people who need it, but for this job I thought it'd be easier to just have someone else do it. I hope this shop does the work as I asked, despite the odd attempt to upsell me on another $800 of parts and work that there's no reason to think is really needed.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Thanks again guys, I had a feeling this wasn't necessary. Tim, I'm not in a good position to start accumulating tools and, more importantly, actually do the work at home. I made arrangements to meet up with a couple guys from the forum but work scuttled one and then COVID-19 put the other on hold. And anyway, this requires a press... I know there's the loaner program circulating one for people who need it, but for this job I thought it'd be easier to just have someone else do it. I hope this shop does the work as I asked, despite the odd attempt to upsell me on another $800 of parts and work that there's no reason to think is really needed.

Warped?? Whatever. Check the housing where the seal is pressed into and make sure the sides aren't gouged. Also make sure where the retainers rest that there are no gouges there either. It certainly isn't rocket science but some sure make it out to be.

 

[CTDST16]

Warped?? Whatever. Check the housing where the seal is pressed into and make sure the sides aren't gouged. Also make sure where the retainers rest that there are no gouges there either. It certainly isn't rocket science but some sure make it out to be.

PO could have Fubar'd the housing ends...?

 

[beklemmung]

Warped?? Whatever. Check the housing where the seal is pressed into and make sure the sides aren't gouged. Also make sure where the retainers rest that there are no gouges there either. It certainly isn't rocket science but some sure make it out to be.

I don't have the ability to pull the axles and check things out myself (and not sure I'd recognize a potential problem if I did, unless it was really obvious). But (1) the PO didn't do any work himself and had all work done at the dealership... they might not know about the seal/retainer design flaw that Tim explains in his video. but I seriously doubt they ****ed up the housing doing the two previous seal replacements, and (2) the current shop didn't mention anything about damage to the housing... it would make a big difference if they did.

 

[plcfcng]

Most likelly they have over pressed the sealing surface. Tim's video shows the position it's supposed to be you will need to view it also look at the grease check for where the seal rides. If they pull the axle and the shine area is larger than it should and they then can do a grease test to show where the seal is riding.

If you talk to the shop that did the work and tell them to pull the leaking side, even if you offer to pay if it shows up right. Not paying if it's done wrong and they repair there mistake at there cost. To pull the axle should be no more that 1 hr of time what ever there rate is.:thumb3:

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I don't have the ability to pull the axles and check things out myself (and not sure I'd recognize a potential problem if I did, unless it was really obvious). But (1) the PO didn't do any work himself and had all work done at the dealership... they might not know about the seal/retainer design flaw that Tim explains in his video. but I seriously doubt they ****ed up the housing doing the two previous seal replacements, and (2) the current shop didn't mention anything about damage to the housing... it would make a big difference if they did.

Why do you doubt that someone could make a mistake doing the 2 previous seal replacements? People make mistakes. Sorry if I sound "skeptical" but if someone suggests I buy an $800 part, which by the way is a discontinued part from Toyota, don't know if there's an aftermarket part) and can't give me a good reason why they think it needs to be replaced, then I've lost confidence in that mechanic.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to pull an axle. I'm sure Tim's video shows it. Not suggesting you do it, just saying that it is a very simple thing to do on these trucks. 98% of the time, continued leaks is poor placement of the inner retainer

No one ever admits when they damage something. They may not even know if they do. And if they don't see the damage, or the problem, that's when they start suggesting whole assemblies or suggest expensive parts they know you won't buy and then you move on down the road to the next mechanic.

So, what I would do, is do the bearings, 2 retainers (reuse the other 2) flip the inner, a new circlip for the outer retainer. Make sure there is no gouging where the inner retainer mounts (on the axle) or where the inner seal is pressed into (on the axle housing) AND DO THE GREASE TEST. So simple. And a competent mechanic can show you these things before they move on. (Retainer position on the axle and the grease test)

 

[mtbtim]

No one ever admits when they damage something. They may not even know if they do. And if they don't see the damage, or the problem, that's when they start suggesting whole assemblies or suggest expensive parts they know you won't buy and then you move on down the road to the next mechanic.

Yep, I've seen the carnage some mechanics and machine shops have done to axles. They don't pull the parts off but they cut them off or try a chisel and they just mangle them. I sometimes wonder why shops take in jobs knowing they have no freaking idea how to do the job properly or don't possess the correct tools. Just admit you're in over your head and send the customer down the road before destroying things. I think damaging the actual axle housing is less common but they sometimes aren't very careful with a hook style seal puller and they gouge the surface a bit.

 

[Kanoe]

My local mechanic was honest enough up front to say he wouldn’t do an axle seal job. I appreciated that. Then I did it myself.

 

[beklemmung]

Why do you doubt that someone could make a mistake doing the 2 previous seal replacements? People make mistakes. Sorry if I sound "skeptical" but if someone suggests I buy an $800 part, which by the way is a discontinued part from Toyota, don't know if there's an aftermarket part) and can't give me a good reason why they think it needs to be replaced, then I've lost confidence in that mechanic.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to pull an axle. I'm sure Tim's video shows it. Not suggesting you do it, just saying that it is a very simple thing to do on these trucks. 98% of the time, continued leaks is poor placement of the inner retainer

No one ever admits when they damage something. They may not even know if they do. And if they don't see the damage, or the problem, that's when they start suggesting whole assemblies or suggest expensive parts they know you won't buy and then you move on down the road to the next mechanic.

So, what I would do, is do the bearings, 2 retainers (reuse the other 2) flip the inner, a new circlip for the outer retainer. Make sure there is no gouging where the inner retainer mounts (on the axle) or where the inner seal is pressed into (on the axle housing) AND DO THE GREASE TEST. So simple. And a competent mechanic can show you these things before they move on. (Retainer position on the axle and the grease test)

John, thanks for your reply. What I meant about the previous seal replacements is that I would hope (maybe I'm naive) that when the PO had the seals replaced twice at the dealership, that the mechanic at the dealership didn't gouge up the housing with the seal puller or while putting the axle back in. And in any case, the current shop I'm using (not a dealership) hasn't stated that there's any damage so I have no reason to think there is. This is the first time they've worked on my truck.

I do think it's highly likely that the previous seal replacements at the dealership followed the FSM and the seal has kept riding very close to the beveled edge of the retainer, and that's why the seals are leaking again (especially with 23 year old bearings that have repeatedly been subjected to leaking differential oil). I've now given this shop exact instructions three times about how I want the job done, so despite their odd recommendation to consider replacing the housing when there's no reason to suspect it's necessary, I'm going to let them do the job. Their communication has been good and they claim to understand what I'm asking, I think they're just skeptical of being told what to do by someone (me) who they can tell probably doesn't have much general experience wrenching.

I didn't buy any new retainers or new ABS rotors, but I did get new bearings, seals (all), O-rings, C-clips, and crush washers for the differential plugs. I did ask them to switch the retainers (inner to outer), and of course to flip the inner retainer so the beveled side faces the ABS rotors and do a grease test to confirm. I even sent them links to two critical parts of Tim's video and they confirmed that they watched them and will do a grease test. I hope they still don't find a way to **** this up.

 

[beklemmung]

My local mechanic was honest enough up front to say he wouldn’t do an axle seal job. I appreciated that. Then I did it myself.

I chose this shop because it has good reviews, it specializes in Japanese vehicles, and they have a press (many shops I looked at didn't have a press and had to send the axles to a separate shop for that work). So I'm hoping my explicit instructions about how to press everything back together does the trick. I'm going to ask them to do a grease test for one side in front of me so I can see the results.

 

[APhelps]

Yep, I've seen the carnage some mechanics and machine shops have done to axles. They don't pull the parts off but they cut them off or try a chisel and they just mangle them. I sometimes wonder why shops take in jobs knowing they have no freaking idea how to do the job properly or don't possess the correct tools. Just admit you're in over your head and send the customer down the road before destroying things. I think damaging the actual axle housing is less common but they sometimes aren't very careful with a hook style seal puller and they gouge the surface a bit.

Hook style seal pullers need to die. Slide hammers really just do a fantastic job for pulling seals efficiently and effectively.

 

[3bears]

couple of ideas.. I doubt you have a bad housing
.one: MTBTM is correct on how to set this up...and it gives you more area to get the seal to hit correct...however some people think this is not needed
two: the shop that is doing the work and if they are a specialty Japanese shop they will appreciate learning how to correctly set up a 4 runner for the future...less future call backs for them
three: 800 seems expensive...is that labor and parts ? If you need a new axel housing...great time to convert to a locker rear end . In your area of the usa and all the people on the forums that live in that area you should be able to find a drum to drum elocker for less than that , even installed, and then have them switch in your newly pressed axels with bearings. If you were in my area Id help you out. I bet you could find dome 4runner friend to help you out. swapping in a drum to drum would be less that 2 hours ( well for me with air tools and jacks etc) , add another 2-3 for swaping in the "new axels" and installing new seals...the longest part would be doing the wiring. I made up my own harness, did not use factory switch...did it in what they call the gray wire mod....that took me longer than swapping out the rear ends. Now I think you can buy the non factory style harness pre mad

good luck