Lets group E-mail Toyota demanding V8

[RonMAIDEN]

I don't think adding the TE is going to increase sales but I think the economy will be in better shape in 2 years and with the FJ being discontinued I think sales will naturally creep up with 4Runners once the public gets used to it plus there will be improvements with each model year.

 

[sandcrawler]

Honestly the only place I see people complaining about the lack of a V8 or multi-mode T case is on this web site, and that's because this is overwhelmingly a 4th gen 4runner website (the polls posted in the poll section show that over 50% of the people who responded have 4th gens.)

you can also find some grousing here, for the record… plus, i've traded a few emails with an automotive editor who himself noted the "downgrade" to a VF2A transfer case and whose publication more or less lamented the "missing v8" in their review of the 2010.

i loved my 93 4runner (which i drove until the day i got my 06). i don't buy the "back to its roots" line at this point: the 2010 is heavier than ever, and skirted with even more cladding than the 4G (the SR5 and Limited are, anyway). if it were smaller, nimbler, with significantly more stock ground clearance (not the much-ballyhooed 0.5" due entirely to tires) i'd agree wholeheartedly that the 4runner is "back to its roots" and not consider the lack of a v8 a ding against it. most importantly, i'd be excited at the prospect of getting out of my 06 V8 SE and into a new 2010 without any reservations. but, as it stands, i have reservations. there are things i like, and things i don't. i do hold out hope that the things i don't will be addressed.

 

[charlier180]

with only 10k sold last year it's obvious the family/soccer mom market has shrunk with 4Runners which is the bread and butter of sales so Toyotas figures it's still worth to produce the 4Runner in smaller numbers but I bet you'll see sales back over 30,000 units in the next couple of years.

You have mentioned "with only 10k sold last year" a few times in this thread.
I was wondering which actual year you are referring to?

Toyota's own published sales figures for the 4Runner in the USA are as follows:

2005 = 103,829
2006 = 103,086
2007 = 87,718
2008 = 47,878
2009 = 15,161 (YTD November)

As you can see, there does not seem to be "only 10K sold" in any of these years. It would be very interesting to see just exactly how many V8 4Runners Toyota does really sell. A lot of people here seem to thing it is a very small number yet there does not seem to be a number published by Toyota.

BTW, some here talk about the expense of a diesel engine sold in the USA due to emissions standards. Maybe someone should tell Volkswagen that. VW has offered a Diesel engine in their Touareg SUV for more than a few years. This year is no exception with the V6 TDI. They also offer diesel engines in their Jetta Wagon & Sedan as well as their Golf model. All of these models are made outside of the USA so VW also faces the exchange rate challenges associated with not having a plant in the USA making these vehicles.

 

[Uneek]

Honestly the only place I see people complaining about the lack of a V8 or multi-mode T case is on this web site, and that's because this is overwhelmingly a 4th gen 4runner website (the polls posted in the poll section show that over 50% of the people who responded have 4th gens.)

Those of us who have 3rd gens or older are, for the most part, happy that Toyota is returning the 4runner to its roots.

Mall crawlers who don't go off road and need AWD can still get a Highlander or a Rav-4, people who tow trailers can still get a Sequoia, and people who like to shift their own gears can get a double-cab Tacoma. The number of potential customers who don't fall into one of those demographics is tiny, and Toyota has made a business decision that makes sense IMO.

Whether it makes sense or not that's yet to be determined. It probably makes sense to Toyota trying to steer V8 4Runner buyers towards the Lexus GX.

The RAV4's AWD system isn't trully AWD, IIRC, even in AWD mode, it only kicks in when slipping is detected. The rear wheels doesn't get power all the time. This was the case for the 2008 model as my friend was looking for a AWD/4WD vehicle for snowboarding and considering the RAV4. I haven't look at the Highlander's AWD system to see if it's a similar setup.

A Sequoia (2nd gen) is way too big to take around town.

Tacoma DC is still longer than a 4Runner and for urban dwellers limited parking just became near impossible.

The 4th gen 4Runner with the V8 works, it was a good combination of size and power.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

It was 10,000 at the end of Sept. so there was an increase in the last two months but 10k or 15k is a still a huge drop so buyers were turning away from 4runners a few years from the 5th gen so really sales can only go up from here and doing something different with the 4Runner isn't going to kill Toyota so they are willing to take some risks even if some percieve just the negatives.

 

[JBgotM]

You have mentioned "with only 10k sold last year" a few times in this thread.
I was wondering which actual year you are referring to?

Toyota's own published sales figures for the 4Runner in the USA are as follows:

2005 = 103,829
2006 = 103,086
2007 = 87,718
2008 = 47,878
2009 = 15,161 (YTD November)

As you can see, there does not seem to be "only 10K sold" in any of these years. It would be very interesting to see just exactly how many V8 4Runners Toyota does really sell. A lot of people here seem to thing it is a very small number yet there does not seem to be a number published by Toyota.

BTW, some here talk about the expense of a diesel engine sold in the USA due to emissions standards. Maybe someone should tell Volkswagen that. VW has offered a Diesel engine in their Touareg SUV for more than a few years. This year is no exception with the V6 TDI. They also offer diesel engines in their Jetta Wagon & Sedan as well as their Golf model. All of these models are made outside of the USA so VW also faces the exchange rate challenges associated with not having a plant in the USA making these vehicles.

I am very very....very aware of who makes diesels, the existing regulations, the regulations of the next several years, the technologies being implemented, etc, etc, etc.

I work for a major diesel engine manufacturer, and as part of my position have been part of many strategy discussions as to where the market is going and what is projected to be used in the next 5-10 years.

I am not saying people won't continue to make them. I AM saying that the premium you pay now for a diesel over a gasoline is going to continue to go up. You may be surprised at a few places a gasoline engine will replace some diesels.

 

[Thai]

It was 10,000 at the end of Sept. so there was an increase in the last two months but 10k or 15k is a still a huge drop so buyers were turning away from 4runners a few years from the 5th gen so really sales can only go up from here and doing something different with the 4Runner isn't going to kill Toyota so they are willing to take some risks even if some percieve just the negatives.

RonM, we both agree that it is the economy that drove the 4runner sales down this past year, right? It was NOT because the 4th gen was lagging behind the competition nor was it due to the 4th gen lack of off-road capability. So, my original point was that the 5th gen "redesign" may not do much, relative to the economy. Yeah, the 5th gen sales may be a bit better than this past year, but that is because of the economy, NOT because of the "back to basics" 5th gen philosophy. The FJ had plenty of that "back to basics" goodness and look where it is today...on the brink of extinction!

 

[RonMAIDEN]

The FJ's market was simply too narrow as they offered essentially one trim level unlike the 4Runner with base,SR5 and Limited editions along with the TE. The 4Runner line is still pretty versatile and can fit more people's needs than the FJ could.

Back to basics and ruggedness is also a way for Toyota to hide some of it's cost cutting measures but for the most part prices really aren't much different but the lack of a few things is noticeable but they have added some nice and useful things and I don't think a manual tranny is out of the question but it may also be wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Thai]

The FJ's market was simply too narrow as they offered essentially one trim level unlike the 4Runner with base,SR5 and Limited editions along with the TE. The 4Runner line is still pretty versatile and can fit more people's needs than the FJ could.

Back to basics and ruggedness is also a way for Toyota to hide some of it's cost cutting measures but for the most part prices really aren't much different but the lack of a few things is noticeable but they have added some nice and useful things and I don't think a manual tranny is out of the question but it may also be wishful thinking on my part.

Off-roaders can do without certain luxury items. Fine. However, shoppers of SR5 and Limiteds expect that they get certain items included in the price of admission. SR5 should expect a vehicle that is a step above an Xterra for instance. Limited owners should expect a level of luxury that rivals that of a $45,000 SUV. A shopper of a 4th gen 4runner may very well be disappointed with the 5th gen due to the cost cutting. The ONLY real PLUS in the 5th gen "redesign" is the addition of the Trail Edition...the other trim levels have suffered from decontenting. The appeal of the SR5 and Limited trims has decrease, relative to the competition and past 4runner generations. I think that is what people here are complaining about. And MY POINT was/is that the Trail Edition will do very little to improve sales of the 4runner...again, please refer to the FJ lineup. The "back to basics" philosophy may end up hurting Toyota in the end, bad economy or not.

 

[M1911]

BTW, some here talk about the expense of a diesel engine sold in the USA due to emissions standards. Maybe someone should tell Volkswagen that.

I'm sure that VW knows all about the expense of meeting the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards. The consensus seems to be that the added cost of a diesel engine plus its emission equipment is around $2000 more than the equivalent gas engine. Some manufacturers are eating some of this extra cost, rather than passing it along to their customers. Others hide some of the cost by adjusting options that are included with the diesel.

VW has offered a Diesel engine in their Touareg SUV for more than a few years.

Yes. First it came here with the V10 tdi, at an exorbitant cost. They started selling it here in 2002, but had to drop it in 2004 because the emissions regulations became stricter and VW was unable at the time to get it to meet the new regulations. It came back for a couple years in 2006, but then again was canceled here due to emissions.

Now they are selling the V6 tdi, but that requires urea injection to pass Tier 2 Bin 5.

 

[nighthawk]

Well, I emailed Toyota telling them how disappointed I am in the fact that they say they are going back to it's roots on the 5th gen 4Runner, yet they still don't offer a manual. I also indicated that if adding a manual tranny to the lineup as a special order option was the only way to get a manual, I wouldn't mind waiting for them to make it. It's just the same as having to wait for a car on back order. I got the answer I expected, but I am very happy that the answer was tailored to my questions and it wasn't just a generic answer. It's nice to know that someone will read and respond personally to your questions. So basically, if Toyota sees the demand for the V8 (I highly doubt they'll ever see enough demand for a manual transmission to justify it as an option), then they may introduce it further down the line, so one can only hope.

Here is the part where she answered about making the manual transmission a special order vehicle:

We have had previous requests for custom-built vehicles, and our investigation revealed the following:

- a lead time of several months is required to build such vehicles
- only minimal savings are realized by eliminating any one option
- any added options (when it is possible to incorporate them) are prohibitively expensive

By grouping options together, we are able to offer them at considerably lower prices, compared to à la carte prices.

We are sorry that our combinations of options do not meet your needs, and that we are unable to accommodate any requests for a custom-built vehicle. However, we have noted your comments and have forwarded them to our Product Planning department for their information and future consideration.

 

[bluebullet]

Nighthawk,
You and I may be the only 2 that are insistent on a manual tranny in a 4Runner. I know a lot of the younger folks out there don't even know how to drive one. I insisted that both my girls learn on manuals (they had no choice as that's all we had at the time). At least they know how to drive a car with standard transmission.

I also believe that anyone who rides a motorcycle on the street should first learn to ride in the dirt. That's a better, often safer, place to learn how to crash. That's also why I don't ride on the street - too dangerous.

On my email I also got a somewhat specific response from Toyota though not as specific as yours. I don't understand why adding the manual option would be so expensive since it is already offered on the Tacoma.

I guess to quote Jerry Jeff Walker "We're just buffaloes singin' the dinosaur blues".

 

[nighthawk]

On my email I also got a somewhat specific response from Toyota though not as specific as yours. I don't understand why adding the manual option would be so expensive since it is already offered on the Tacoma.

The funny thing is that in my email, I specifically mentioned why they can't just make in an option to put a manual in since that is already offered on the Tacoma which had the same engine as the 4Runner (before the 5th gen).

 

[East Bay Runner]

Additionally, Toyota had trouble selling their last V8 4Runner in any volume (hence why the 2009 did not come with an option for a V8) and had to be nervous about selling them in the future in the face of escalating gasoline costs. QUOTE]

Actually, a V8 was avaiable for 2009... FYI

 

[charlier180]

Whether it makes sense or not that's yet to be determined. It probably makes sense to Toyota trying to steer V8 4Runner buyers towards the Lexus GX.

A Sequoia (2nd gen) is way too big to take around town.

Tacoma DC is still longer than a 4Runner and for urban dwellers limited parking just became near impossible.

The 4th gen 4Runner with the V8 works, it was a good combination of size and power.

I have no doubt that it has crossed Toyota's mind about steering the V8 4Runner buyers towards a Lexus.
The question Toyota should be asking themselves is just how many 4Runner buyers are WILLING or ABLE to pay the price for a Lexus?
If the price jump is $2-3K that is one thing. If it is $5-10K that may be WAY out of the ballpark a 4Runner buyer may be WILLING or ABLE to pay.

When I was looking for a tow vehicle back in 2004, that generation of Sequoia had a tow rating that was LOWER than the 4Runner and was too large for my needs.
Then there is the cost difference between the 4Runner and Sequoia. That alone is a BIG chunk of change right there.

 

[charlier180]

It was 10,000 at the end of Sept. so there was an increase in the last two months but 10k or 15k is a still a huge drop so buyers were turning away from 4runners a few years from the 5th gen so really sales can only go up from here and doing something different with the 4Runner isn't going to kill Toyota so they are willing to take some risks even if some perceive just the negatives.

Thanks for the clarification on your posts regarding the "10K & last year".

Personally, I think 4Runner sales are down for a number of reasons.
First, it's life cycle was getting long in the tooth at 6+. In some cases buyers may have been waiting for the 5th generation instead of buying an "old" 4th gen design. Second, obviously the economic downturn has greatly impacted ALL new vehicle sales and trucks/SUVs in particular. Third, with the economic downturn and 5th gen introduction Toyota and it's dealers cut back quite significantly on the number of 4th gen 4Runners that were made and kept on the floor plan at dealerships in late 2008 and all of 2009. My fairly large dealer kept MAYBE, ONE 4th gen 4Runner on the lot (if that), for the last YEAR+. That makes it kind of hard for buyers interested in a 4th gen to find one let alone buy it.

I do agree with you that it appears that 4Runner sales do not have much more downside and most likely have no where to go but up. It remains to be seen once the pent up demand for the new model has subsided just how many unit will be sold. I do still believe that Toyota will address some of the 5th gen shortcomings that have been noted in these forums as time goes on. The question is, will buyers be willing to wait for Toyota to do this, or will they move on to another manufacturer's product? Time will tell I suppose.

BTW, I have a service appointment for my 4th gen this Saturday. With any luck, I will be able to see a 5th gen 4Runner in person then I can see first hand how the vehicle stacks up.

 

[charlier180]

I work for a major diesel engine manufacturer, and as part of my position have been part of many strategy discussions as to where the market is going and what is projected to be used in the next 5-10 years.

I am not saying people won't continue to make them. I AM saying that the premium you pay now for a diesel over a gasoline is going to continue to go up. You may be surprised at a few places a gasoline engine will replace some diesels.

I do not envy you in your job. The US Government keeps moving the targets for emissions, etc. that the diesel engine makers have to meet. Standards may be a good thing for the environment but I often wonder about the time-tables involved.

Doesn't it stand to reason that as more diesel engines are used in vehicles their costs can be kept under control to some extent? For instance, if Toyota developed a diesel engine that could be used in the 4Runner, Sequoia and Tundra could they not spread out the costs to some extent? If they are essentially the same engine couldn't they share parts, components and R&D costs? I would imagine that certification costs would be charged to each vehicle (which can be costly).

Personally, I have no problem with a smaller gas engine replacing a larger gas or even a diesel engine. Just make sure that smaller gas engine is in a vehicle with a 7K tow rating, has 4WD and most of all will last given what I ask it to do.

 

[M1911]

You and I may be the only 2 that are insistent on a manual tranny in a 4Runner. I know a lot of the younger folks out there don't even know how to drive one.

I've been driving for more than 30 years. My 4Runner is the first car I've owned with an automatic transmission. While I prefer to drive a manual, when it comes to driving offroad I greatly prefer an automatic. YMMV.

 

[jmc8387]

I emailed them to thank them for NOT offering the V8. IT IS NOT NEEDED!

Because you speak for everyone? Get real!


On a side note, I sent Toyota a message recently without even knowing this was a topic on here. My complaints were about the major corners Toyota appears to have cut on this new model along with the lack of features that I feel are industry standards by now and should be on the 2010 MY. Hopefully we will see the return of a higher quality/better equipped 4Runner for 2011 now that so many people are voicing their dislike with the 2010.

 

[sandcrawler]

i've got my fingers and toes crossed that you're right about Toyota rethinking some decisions/decontenting and putting a bit more into the 2011 model year… my lease on my 06 V8 is up in june and i'd like to be able to feel good about getting into a new one. i test drove a 2010 SR5 today and while the V6 is ok, it felt more like "good enough" to me. highway pep was pretty non-existent, relative to the V8. man, the 2010s are BIG!! i do like the feel of the interior quite a bit; far more spacious.