Lets group E-mail Toyota demanding V8

[DC runner]

Ultimately it is a market decision. If the V8 was an awesome seller, they would be offering the V8. That they are not is probably a pretty good indicator that no matter how "badass" uber toyota fan-boys (me included) consider it; the larger market does not.

If you want V8 and you want towing there are numerous other options available. The rugged offroad market is getting smaller and smaller. When your market continues to shrink, you have to focus on core strengths. You simply don't have the market share to expend resources on products that won't sell enough to recoup costs.

 

[1engineer]

It's very simple for those of you that continue to be hardheaded. Toyota did not put a V8 in the 5G because there was not enough demand for a V8 in that specific vehicle. How hard is this to understand? If there is a big enough demand there will be a product or option. Koz has it right but the cost is a function of demand. If everyone demanded it then that means they would pay the premium to get it. For those of you who want torque: Go buy a diesel Toureg. Seriously. Demand comes first. Supply follows suit every time.

 

[1engineer]

It's a driver experience thing. The usable RPMs are under 3k in the 4Runner. This is what happens when you shoe-horn a V6 into a drivetrain optimized for a low end grunt-y V8. I can accelerate all the way to 70 without going over 2k RPM. You mention you drop into third on ascents: the torque converter is NOT locked in 3rd gear and the heat generation is quite substantial and in the long run could be detrimental to the fluid especially without a transmission cooler. The V8 4th gen has no issue maintaining speeds on grades in 5th gear with the torque converter locked. If it needs to down shift to 4th, the torque converter will happily lock and the car easily accelerates and passes other vehicles. 85% of the V8's torque is available at 1800RPM. Yes, 1800RPM. Accelerating on grades in 5th gear with ease while the torque converter is locked is quite impressive.

0-60 times are only part of the equation, the GX and V8 4R are so much more drivable at the low RPMs. The car moves with absolute ease from idle.

I still believe one of the main reasons there is no V8 in the 5th gen is because Toyota needed to differentiate the GX and 4R more. They did lose numerous customers in doing so, however. If you're happy with the V6 that's great, it just does not do anything for me and is the one reason I will not even consider a 5th gen.

Your response is ambiguous. Whereas Quintin posted hard numbers from a credible source, you posted things like "driver experience" and "useable RPM's" and "drivetrain optimized for a low end grunt-y" and "so much more drivable at the low RPMs." What does that stuff mean? Do you have something measurable to back it up? Please tell me what the difference is between torque at 1800 RPM and torque at 3000 RPM. Last I checked torque is still measured the same regardless of RPM. Last, "lose numerous customers?" How many did they lose? My point is it's easy to post opinions. Much harder to post fact, as Quintin has done.

 

[Quentin]

It's a driver experience thing. The usable RPMs are under 3k in the 4Runner. This is what happens when you shoe-horn a V6 into a drivetrain optimized for a low end grunt-y V8. I can accelerate all the way to 70 without going over 2k RPM. You mention you drop into third on ascents: the torque converter is NOT locked in 3rd gear and the heat generation is quite substantial and in the long run could be detrimental to the fluid especially without a transmission cooler. The V8 4th gen has no issue maintaining speeds on grades in 5th gear with the torque converter locked. If it needs to down shift to 4th, the torque converter will happily lock and the car easily accelerates and passes other vehicles. 85% of the V8's torque is available at 1800RPM. Yes, 1800RPM. Accelerating on grades in 5th gear with ease while the torque converter is locked is quite impressive.

0-60 times are only part of the equation, the GX and V8 4R are so much more drivable at the low RPMs. The car moves with absolute ease from idle.

I still believe one of the main reasons there is no V8 in the 5th gen is because Toyota needed to differentiate the GX and 4R more. They did lose numerous customers in doing so, however. If you're happy with the V6 that's great, it just does not do anything for me and is the one reason I will not even consider a 5th gen.

Do you mind citing the document that says that the 4Runner's usable RPM are under 3k? Again, what are you talking about the drivetrain being optimized for a V8? The rear end and 5AT in the 4Runner have been with the 1GR since the introduction of the 4th Gen 4Runner and throughout the life of the 2nd gen V6 Tacoma. The transmission is actually optimized for the engine. That is why the 5AT didn't carry over to the 4.6L Tundra when the UR replaced the UZ as the middle range engine. That is also why the Tundra kept the 5AT when it got the updated 1GR in 2011 instead of getting 6AT across the board.

In regard to lockup, my understanding is that 3rd gear locks up as well and 3, 4, and 5 will unlock as the conditions require it to unlock. It isn't automatically locked all the time.

Also, you make it sound like I drop into 3rd every single time the grade is slightly uphill. It is very, very rare that I have to get into 3rd. Out of my normal interstate trip over the mountains, it is about 5 cumulative miles of 150 miles of interstate driving. Otherwise, it is always in 4th and 5th.

Anyway, I agree that V8 feels better to drive, but I think that most 4Runner owners (not ones on here, mind you) feel that the V6 is a better choice for their needs. The market is going toward smaller engines. That is life when gas is expensive and the economy isn't great.

 

[Paragon1]

Im not partial to the V8, my concern is suspension/tires, especially on the TE. Emergency braking is a nightmare, happened three times and each resulted in me thinking im going to die. I dont like nose dive! Ive written a pretty lengthy email expressing my concerns with this.

 

[phillyd2]

It's very simple for those of you that continue to be hardheaded. Toyota did not put a V8 in the 5G because there was not enough demand for a V8 in that specific vehicle. How hard is this to understand? If there is a big enough demand there will be a product or option.

Of course you are correct but lets not take this so seriously or personally. Its a internet forum and as such people have a right, no damn it - a duty to ***** and complain about everything. If we had V12 diesel some would want Warp technology.

Serious question for you: If 5th Gen had a V8 as a option for say, $ 1K would you have went for it? I would have. Its not a option, mostly likely won't be....but who cares? Let the guys want and complain :tongue:

 

[1engineer]

Of course you are correct but lets not take this so seriously or personally. Its a internet forum and as such people have a right, no damn it - a duty to ***** and complain about everything. If we had V12 diesel some would want Warp technology.

Serious question for you: If 5th Gen had a V8 as a option for say, $ 1K would you have went for it? I would have. Its not a option, mostly likely won't be....but who cares? Let the guys want and complain :tongue:

I agree. Too many misconceptions out there though on why.

 

[MeBe4running]

Just an Opinion NOT an Statement

To me this is modern-day America coming to a realization that things are going to-are changing. As far as vehicle’s that require petroleum to run and operate, we will continue to see car manufactures down size engine size to the point where we have a consistent alternative to fossil fuels used now. Yes we have hybrids, but I’m thinking further down the line.

Now as far as the 5th gen. For me this is typically a case of "Satisfying your needs before satisfying your wants "! This truck has plenty of power for my personal needs, of which are to transport my body and gear to wherever I’m traveling to, safely and efficiently as possible.

Scenario:
Now I have had a family of 5 loaded up with all their suitcases (some on the roof) and headed for a 4-hour journey from Denver, CO to Aspen, Co. Those of you who don't know, Denver's elevation is roughly: 5130-5680 ft. (1564-1731 m) ... Denver is nicknamed the Mile-High City because its official elevation which is exactly one mile (1.6 km) or 5280 feet and Aspen is roughly around 7,890 ft. So with all the cargo and passengers plus the altitude to climb, I was thoroughly impressed with the trucks performance throughout the journey considering all. I spent most of my time in 3rd gear around 4,000-5,000 rpm. Fuel economy was okay and around 13.4mpg. The point though is it had plenty of power; well this was proven when I got a ticket doing 86 in a 65, half way there with them all in the back. It turned out to be a comical event where I was let off considerable!

So in that scenario, I think to myself when am I ever going to be carrying that kind of load, with that many people climbing 2,700 ft. (give or take) of altitude and need more power than I already had...? Not me! Now I know what people are going to say," yeah, but if you had a V8, you could of stayed in a higher gear and a lower RPM and... Blah, blah and blah. For me the engine in the 5th gen has an impressive output considering the size of the vehicle and is plenty sufficient for my needs.

END OF STORY: I HAVE FOUND THE 5th GEN TOYOTA 4Runner Trail to have plenty of power for my NEEDs, now my wants is a different story! ;-)

eace:

 

[DizzyV6P]

The GX460 only manages to be .2 sec quicker to 60 and .1 sec quicker in the 1/4 mi than the 4Runner with the new 1GR V6*. For all practical purposes, the performance is the same. More than likely, the GX has a more direct throttle response versus gas pedal position and is more eager to drop a gear because luxury buyers are more concerned about the vehicle being responsive than fuel economy. That probably makes it feel faster. Apples to apples, it is simply marginally faster.

* This is also using CR's numbers.

I've got around 2500 miles now on my new 2011 4Runner LE. I'm one of those who complained about throttle response. Well, after reading the thread last week and being reminded about the learning ECU. I drove the car like I was still drag racing my old Honda. I'm glad to say that after a week of flooring at all the traffic lights and wasting gallons of gas, my throttle response is now pretty "peppy." So that's the fix. Pretend you are fast and furious for a week and eventually the ECU will figure it out and give you a better throttle response It also saves you the 20k premium of a Lexus.

That being all said, what's the best way to go up steep hills when traveling at 70-80 mph? I seemed to lose "grunt" power when going into the mountains. Should I shift it into "S" mode? Which gear should I put it in?

 

[TRDSmokedU]

So why do you post in the 5G forum if you are such a die hard V8 guy? I have been up beech mountain in NC - no problems. I was not pulling a trailer but had 4 adults and luggage with bikes on the back. Sorry you do not like higher revving engines. You know, if you bought a Volkswagen Toureg diesel you would really be able to go up highway 105 at about 1500 rpm. If you want more power just drop about 5-6K on URD's supercharger.

Wow. Does it matter where I post? You say you had no issues; you probably haven't had a V8 to compare it to. So if you come back up to Beech Mountain let me know. I will lend you my V8 so you can feel the difference. Yes, hwy 105 is steep but 184 up to Beech Mountain Parkway is worse. If I wanted a VW, I would buy one. But if you look at my avatar, my family has been loyal to Toyota for years. We have four 4runners, and 2 highlanders in the family now. Despite having two 5G and two 4G in the family, I will make sure I post elsewhere.

 

[TRDSmokedU]

It's a driver experience thing. The usable RPMs are under 3k in the 4Runner. This is what happens when you shoe-horn a V6 into a drivetrain optimized for a low end grunt-y V8. I can accelerate all the way to 70 without going over 2k RPM. You mention you drop into third on ascents: the torque converter is NOT locked in 3rd gear and the heat generation is quite substantial and in the long run could be detrimental to the fluid especially without a transmission cooler. The V8 4th gen has no issue maintaining speeds on grades in 5th gear with the torque converter locked. If it needs to down shift to 4th, the torque converter will happily lock and the car easily accelerates and passes other vehicles. 85% of the V8's torque is available at 1800RPM. Yes, 1800RPM. Accelerating on grades in 5th gear with ease while the torque converter is locked is quite impressive.

0-60 times are only part of the equation, the GX and V8 4R are so much more drivable at the low RPMs. The car moves with absolute ease from idle.

I still believe one of the main reasons there is no V8 in the 5th gen is because Toyota needed to differentiate the GX and 4R more. They did lose numerous customers in doing so, however. If you're happy with the V6 that's great, it just does not do anything for me and is the one reason I will not even consider a 5th gen.

Very well said. I think some of those who are content with the V6 never experienced the V8 4Runner. I have yet to find a smoother drivetrain. Please no one take that as a knock against your knowledge. Once you drive the V8 4Runner, you will fall in love with it.

 

[1engineer]

Very well said. I think some of those who are content with the V6 never experienced the V8 4Runner. I have yet to find a smoother drivetrain. Please no one take that as a knock against your knowledge. Once you drive the V8 4Runner, you will fall in love with it.

I fell in love with the Aston DB7 I had the pleasure of driving this past summer. The V12 was pretty smooth. I have driven the V8 4Runner. I have driven the 5.7 Tundra. All good vehicles. I have a SUV that does just fine. I will reiterate: If I needed the torque to tow or haul I would just go get a Ford F250 diesel and be done with it.

 

[ClockWork]

Your response is ambiguous. Whereas Quintin posted hard numbers from a credible source, you posted things like "driver experience" and "useable RPM's" and "drivetrain optimized for a low end grunt-y" and "so much more drivable at the low RPMs." What does that stuff mean? Do you have something measurable to back it up? Please tell me what the difference is between torque at 1800 RPM and torque at 3000 RPM. Last I checked torque is still measured the same regardless of RPM. Last, "lose numerous customers?" How many did they lose? My point is it's easy to post opinions. Much harder to post fact, as Quintin has done.

Your an engineer. You know that there is a peak torque and HP point on the dyno curve. At full throttle, the peak torque is available at ~3400RPM on the V8. 85% of that peak value comes in at 1800RPM. The low end power band is more impressive on the V8 versus the V6. This RPM band is where you "daily drive".

You don't need hard numbers to prove to you that the 4R has a transmission optimized for a V8. Where are the shift points in normal driving? If you've never driven a V8 4th gen, it's hard to explain.

Do you mind citing the document that says that the 4Runner's usable RPM are under 3k? Again, what are you talking about the drivetrain being optimized for a V8? The rear end and 5AT in the 4Runner have been with the 1GR since the introduction of the 4th Gen 4Runner and throughout the life of the 2nd gen V6 Tacoma. The transmission is actually optimized for the engine. That is why the 5AT didn't carry over to the 4.6L Tundra when the UR replaced the UZ as the middle range engine. That is also why the Tundra kept the 5AT when it got the updated 1GR in 2011 instead of getting 6AT across the board.

In regard to lockup, my understanding is that 3rd gear locks up as well and 3, 4, and 5 will unlock as the conditions require it to unlock. It isn't automatically locked all the time.

Also, you make it sound like I drop into 3rd every single time the grade is slightly uphill. It is very, very rare that I have to get into 3rd. Out of my normal interstate trip over the mountains, it is about 5 cumulative miles of 150 miles of interstate driving. Otherwise, it is always in 4th and 5th.

Anyway, I agree that V8 feels better to drive, but I think that most 4Runner owners (not ones on here, mind you) feel that the V6 is a better choice for their needs. The market is going toward smaller engines. That is life when gas is expensive and the economy isn't great.

Here is the document. Refer to the flex lock-up section.

http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/temp/A750F_Automatic_Transmission.pdf

Again, the V6 was initially offered with the 4speed A343f in 2003-2004 and that was an even worse match than the current A750f. The V8 had the A750f which was designed for the Land Cruiser and put into the V8 4th gen in 2003 when the Land Cruiser received its mid-generation update in 2003.

Very well said. I think some of those who are content with the V6 never experienced the V8 4Runner. I have yet to find a smoother drivetrain. Please no one take that as a knock against your knowledge. Once you drive the V8 4Runner, you will fall in love with it.

This. You've just got to drive one. I challenge you to find a car of comparable price with as smooth of a drivetrain. That's what happens when Toyota puts an engine and transmission from an $80k Lexus into a mid-tier Toyota truck.

 

[1engineer]

OK you guys (clockwork eskimo chaos and TRDsmokedu) the 4G V8 4Runner is the best vehicle ever.

 

[Lurker]

OK you guys (clockwork eskimo chaos and TRDsmokedu) the 4G V8 4Runner is the best vehicle ever.

I disagree. I think it looks like a girl's vehicle.

 

[TRDSmokedU]

I don’t tow nearly 5,000lbs with the 4Runner. I tow maybe 1000lbs which has a significant impact of the performance of the V6. It is hard to explain, but the V8 has awesome power when climbing steep grades. The V6 does well, but after driving a V8, (Titan, Pathfinder, 4Runner, and Tundra) the V6 requires significant acceleration to make it up the hill without losing speed. The V8 on the other hand provides effortless acceleration and maintains speeds more fluently.

I guess we’ve beat a dead horse on this issue. You’re happy with the V6, many of us are not. Chrysler still offers the hemi in the GC and Durango. There is a market for it. Toyota and now Nissan will be giving up their V8s giving the midsized V8 market to Chrysler. The GX is midsized and obviously Toyota saw a market to put the V8 in it. I am willing to bet that Toyota would see more V8 runners than Lexus would sell GXs. At least make it an order option for the 4Runner.

If nothing else, I appreciate the conversation. I enjoy everyone’s opinion!!

 

[TRDSmokedU]

I fell in love with the Aston DB7 I had the pleasure of driving this past summer. The V12 was pretty smooth. I have driven the V8 4Runner. I have driven the 5.7 Tundra. All good vehicles. I have a SUV that does just fine. I will reiterate: If I needed the torque to tow or haul I would just go get a Ford F250 diesel and be done with it.

lol... Again, it's not all about towing and I would never own a Ford. I'm glad your SUV works well for you. My offer stands, I will show you the difference should you make up to NC. Give me a heads up, right now, I am down in FL. Be good bro.

 

[Antman]

I don’t tow nearly 5,000lbs with the 4Runner. I tow maybe 1000lbs which has a significant impact of the performance of the V6. It is hard to explain, but the V8 has awesome power when climbing steep grades. The V6 does well, but after driving a V8, (Titan, Pathfinder, 4Runner, and Tundra) the V6 requires significant acceleration to make it up the hill without losing speed.

I disagree with this. I tow my boat at least once per week from Spring to Fall. Some of the hills I regularly tow over are steep. My setup weighs in a little over 2,200 lbs- more when full of fuel(23 gal) and supplies. The performance is commendable. No hunting for gears, no excessive downshifting. The torque converter unlocks, and it goes right up no problem. The grade logic does an awesome job holding speed on downgrades too. As an added bonus, I get 17-18mpg towing.


Your setup is 1000 lbs? C'mon- no way you can tell me that has a significant impact on your performance, because it doesn't.

My previous vehicle was a Titan beast. I was expecting to miss all that power and torque while towing. Know what I miss? The v8 soundtrack-
That's it. 12 mpg gets old real quick. Keep the v8, I like my v6.

 

[Quentin]

Here is the document. Refer to the flex lock-up section.

http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/temp/A750F_Automatic_Transmission.pdf

Flex lock-up is a partial torque converter lock. 3rd gear still has actual lock-up. It just doesn't have the partial lock-up feature.

 

[ClockWork]

Flex lock-up is a partial torque converter lock. 3rd gear still has actual lock-up. It just doesn't have the partial lock-up feature.

Show me a link, I may be wrong.