Lift Kit Delima????help!

[Willymoe]

hey Willymoe, how are those rear SAW's? Do they give you an actual 2" of lift after they've settled? Do you have any problems with the red anodized paint on them? Heard some people complaining about that. They said SAW had a bad batch and had to return them.

The rear SAW's are great. I was running a Rev Tek Spacer and shock set up previous and the rebound on their shocks just wasn't working for me.With the SAW's I notice a lot less skip on gravel washboard at around 30-40 and the town driving is smoother over undulations and harsh approaches. They eat up bad street repairs and pot holes very well. I didn't measure the before and after as I was in a hurry to leave on a trip when I swapped them out. It looks like I got every bit of the 2" lift. I have not seen any issues with the powder coating. I did notice on the parts that I removed that there was a fair amount of damage to the finish. This is due to the debris being thrown from the Mud Terrains and aggressive driving. We see powder coat issues on all coils (OME, SAW, DR). I will have to keep an eye on them for the long haul.

 

[trd_4runnin]

The problem here is that I equate "handling' the same way most people think about handling--which is the ability of the vehicle to corner at high speeds without losing traction. Think of a skid pad cirle......a vehicle that handles better than another vehicle will be able to circle a skid pad at a higher rate of speed without "spinning out" because of lost traction.

Now of course nobody expects to pull high g's on a skidpad in a 4Runner, but handling is still an important part of every day driving. I have a very mild lift on my own 4Runner, and I didn't notice any difference in handling. However, once you start lifting more than an inch or two, you should definitely lose a bit of handling (in my own definition) due to the higher center of gravity.

This isn't a big deal here.... I'm just stating the obvious. If you feel that handling equates to a more firm ride, or to get rid of the "floaty" feeling, then we are obviously talking about two different things. No biggie....

I would like to add to the debate, that autocross guys spend thousands of dollars on their suspension to decrease body roll. The thing is that while lowering the car does lower the center of gravity, it is more about the stiffness of the suspension than anything. You can take a civic and cut or heat the springs and while your car will look lower I can GUARANTEE it will not handle any better at all. Where as you can replace the springs and shocks with a nice fully adjustable setup that is stiff as hell and only lower it .5" and almost completely erase any body roll.

Lifting a truck will by all means increase the risk of rollover, which I think everyone here probably understands, however body roll is 99% about the suspension and not the center of gravity. By installing stiffer springs and shocks I can almost promise that you will reduce body roll BUT increase rollover risk.

You used a spacer lift and retained all of your stock suspension, therefor you would experience the same amount of body roll plus the added higher center of gravity so its no wonder you think the way you do. Maybe you should take a lesson in automotive to go with your physics degree.

 

[Willymoe]

I think at this level of driving - we can define handing as the reaction of the vehicle resulting from a drivers input. Most guys care less about the skid pad. Most guys are not checking lap times. Most guys are describing their personal opinion not physics.

 

[Beanz]

I wonder if the SAW's would be just as good as the DR's and if it would be worth it to go ahead and get them because the DR's are on a back order and taking forever to come in. I was just worried about how much rear lift the SAW's would actually give me once they settled. That's one reason I asked if the SAW's gave you an actual 2 inches of lift after they settled. I was told that the DR rear coils come as a 2.25" and once settled, they're 2 inches. I just wonder if SAW's went down to 1.5". Did you crank up the height on your DR coilovers, if so, how much? One complete turn equals 1/8", right?

 

[Beanz]

Lift Finished! Yeah!

XREAS are gone, yeah! Here is a picture that I took with my cell phone today when I went down to the shop to see how my new wheels and tires looked. My neighbor and I installed the lift in my garage but I had a shop level it out because I didn't have the right tools for the coilovers. In this picture it still needs leveled out a little and an allignment. I had to remove the front mud flaps and had to do a little inner fender trimming up front. The shop I went to suggested that I let them notch out a small strip of the body mount with a plasma cutter. Where the front wheel rubs a little at full lock. They told me that they would weld a piece back after they notched it and paint it black, and they told me it wouldn't hurt the integrity of the vehichle. I told them that I would just let it rub a little for now, as it would barely rub turning out of parking spaces and such. I just gritted my teeth and said "cut what!" I will post some better pictures when I get it home. I'll probably replace the factory skid plate next and take off the bottom billet grill and sell it and go back to the bottom stock grill. What do you guys think so far?

 

[Even Steven]

I would like to add to the debate, that autocross guys spend thousands of dollars on their suspension to decrease body roll. The thing is that while lowering the car does lower the center of gravity, it is more about the stiffness of the suspension than anything. You can take a civic and cut or heat the springs and while your car will look lower I can GUARANTEE it will not handle any better at all. Where as you can replace the springs and shocks with a nice fully adjustable setup that is stiff as hell and only lower it .5" and almost completely erase any body roll.

Lifting a truck will by all means increase the risk of rollover, which I think everyone here probably understands, however body roll is 99% about the suspension and not the center of gravity. By installing stiffer springs and shocks I can almost promise that you will reduce body roll BUT increase rollover risk.

You used a spacer lift and retained all of your stock suspension, therefor you would experience the same amount of body roll plus the added higher center of gravity so its no wonder you think the way you do. Maybe you should take a lesson in automotive to go with your physics degree.

If you don't believe that lowering any vehicle (yes, even by cutting the springs) will not only lower the center of gravity (which is not even debatable) but also ultimately increase the levels of adhesion for handling, then YOU need to take a few automotive courses and a few other basic physics courses as well.

I know a thing to two about handling and road course racing, so I'll put my real world experience up against anything anyone learned by reading a book. It's all common sense to me.

 

[Even Steven]

I think at this level of driving - we can define handing as the reaction of the vehicle resulting from a drivers input. Most guys care less about the skid pad. Most guys are not checking lap times. Most guys are describing their personal opinion not physics.

Right, which is exactly why I said that nobody expects to take his 4Runner out on a skidpad. However, driving on the streets, anyone will encounter turns, bends, on/off ramps, etc... which will obviously have an effect on the handling of any vehicle. So by your very own definition, it is more than likely that altering the stock suspension by installing a lift kit will change the reaction of the vehicle as a result of the driver's input.

My only argument here is that some people insist on spreading misinformation in that installing a lift will not have an effect on handling. Or better yet, they'll lift a few inches and claim that their vehicle handles better than it did when stock.

 

[Even Steven]

Beanz,

Looks a bit nose high.... did you measure it?

 

[Beanz]

I know a thing to two about handling and road course racing, so I'll put my real worl

ZZZZZzzzzzz.......

 

[Beanz]

It is a bit nose high in this picture. I told them to lower it one crank, which is only 1/8". I figured it will settle a little over time and with the little extra weight from the skidplate that I will be adding and with two people in it, it will level out better. It was hard for me to get the truck perfectly level as it comes from the factory unlevel from left to right. Dialing in equal amounts of cranks on left/right coilovers just would not work. One coilover is cranked down 1/4" more than the other. I did a bunch of asking around and everybody has told me the same thing. Also, the shape of the 4th gens. fender well is not very "big tire" friendly either. The 33's would of worked better with a more round fender well, but.....I love the way it feels and drives much better now and would never go back to the XREAS after riding around in this. Feels more like a truck now!!

 

[Beanz]

I did measure it, but I would feel much more comfortable if you would come over and measure it for me with your P-34 space modulator. ROFLMAO! Only joking. Don't go nuts on me now, lol. I would like to add, that IMO, the 4Runner does handle better in some situations and not as well in others. It sure doesn't take high speed turns as nice and crisp as it used to, but that doesn't matter to me because I didn't want a Corvette, I wanted a truck and I don't intend to drive it at high speeds. The acceleration is not as peppy as stock due to the big tires changing the gearing. As far as going over pot holes and and bumpy roads at high speeds, yes, it absorbs the shock much better than stock. The truck no longer nose dives when coming to a stop now, which i love. With my wheel offset at -12, it gives it a wider stance and "helps" compensate for the height. The wide tires helped a little for handling at high speeds when driving in a "straight line", but not as well at high speed quick monuvering. I guess it just depends on what kind of performance you looking to get out of your vehicle.

 

[Beanz]

Here is a picture of my 4Runner when it used to be set up with 20" wheels and low profile tires, but I really didn't like the hard ride that I got from the tires. I thought I would end up keeping it strictly for street use but I felt like I wasn't getting the most out of the 4Runner by having it set up like this so I set it up for the trails and I am glad that I did. I will never put that small of a tire on a truck again. These tires/wheels are for sale too. The wheels were purchased from the Dealership. They were a stock wheel that came on some of the Tundra's. They are Enkei Deep Six style. The tires are Toyo Proxes ST 295/45/20. They both have about 13k on them. The tires were nice for high speed cornering and good in the rain.

 

[ProMed]

My only argument here is that some people insist on spreading misinformation in that installing a lift will not have an effect on handling. Or better yet, they'll lift a few inches and claim that their vehicle handles better than it did when stock.

If you are just talking about a body lift or a spacer lift then your post would probably be correct. However.. I do not recall seeing anyone trying to make that debate in this thread.

I was able to compare thousands of miles on the stock tires and suspension with the same stock tires and my OME suspension lift. The T4R handled MUCH better than stock. The decrease in nose-diving while braking and body roll in sharp turns was very obvious. It is not anywhere near a stiff ride, but it is still much more responsive. There is no doubt it certainly got rid of what I felt were floaty feeling stock suspenders.

This was with ~3 inches of lift.

 

[ProMed]

Re: Lift Finished! Yeah!

XREAS are gone, yeah! Here is a picture that I took with my cell phone today when I went down to the shop to see how my new wheels and tires looked.

Very sharp, nice job. That T4R will certainly never be mistaken for a grocery-getter!

 

[Beanz]

Here are a few new pictures I took today. I still think it sits a bit to high in the front end.

 

[Beanz]

another picture

 

[Beanz]

I sure don't like the rear mud flaps, thinking of loosing them, but they are good paint savers. hmmm....

 

[Beanz]

Do you guys think it is nose high? Do you think the weight of a Budbuilt skidplate/bellypan would bring it down any, or no? The entire thing weighs around 100 to 120 lbs. I'm thinking one more turn on the coilovers, hmmm....

 

[ProMed]

Do you guys think it is nose high? Do you think the weight of a Downey skid plate would bring it down any, or no? I'm thinking one more turn on the coilovers, hmmm....

It is maybe just a little bit high, but barely. The Downey may be enough to get it down a bit. Great looking truck!

 

[Beanz]

Thanks for the compliment Pro Med. I don't know if you can see it, but here is where some trimming to the fender was done, by the running board. It is not very noticeable.