Looking for old LBJ

[MojaveMadMan]

Anyone have any old LBJ's sitting around they want to get rid of? I will pay shipping of course if anyone has an old bad set they don't mind mailing me.

I have this bright idea of replacing the ball joints with uniballs. I want to remove the old joint out, then drill it out to hold a uniball cup. Then I will have a joint that just requires swapping a uniball out when bad, which are much cheaper and don't fail like ball joints do. If a uniball fails it's not gunna cause your wheel you fold out... At least that's my theory and something I want to try. If it all works out like I hope, I would be willing to modify other for members (for a small fee), and of course do it for free for the person who is willing to donate a bad set to me!

 

[yosh2000]

i got a set i just pulled off the truck, pm me and we can work this out for the good of our 4runner brethren!!

 

[MojaveMadMan]

PM sent, thanks for the help!

 

[4x4runner2002]

very interested in results subbed

 

[thebrandon]

Very interested in seeing if you can get this work. I think a uniball lower would be very cool.

When swapping old LBJ out for new OEM ones though it almost doesn't seem worth the trouble considering how long they last.

Uniballs also have a shorter lifespan than ball joint don't they?

 

[MojaveMadMan]

I think there is room to gain here. I think that the price will be the same, but we can also get some good strength and longevity benifits.

We thoughs, and please feel free to correct me! First is that the factory joint isn't that big. If I can fit a 1" or 1.25" uniball, then the strength of that joint will be much higher than factory. A stronger joint also means it doesn't take as much stress, which I am hoping will lead to longer life. This all depends on the quality of the joint you use too. A generic joint from somewhere like McMastef Carr probably won't last as long as a quality lined joint from FK. So it all depends on what you buy. I honestly will probably run a mid range lined joint from McMaster Carr at first.

Also, I am looking at increasing the strength of the pin/bolt. Right now I am trying to source a pin to go into the uniball and provide the tapered shank to go into the LCA. This would be great for those who want to keep a factory fit. I am also leaning towards drilling the LCA so a larger bolt can be used, add in a high strength chromoly bolt and I think you got something better than stock!

 

[Neil_R]

I have a set I just pulled off my '97 4WD, pretty rusty but you might be able to use them.

-NR

 

[Mike&Ike]

I pulled these from race dezert. Are you trying to do something like this?

 

[MojaveMadMan]

That is cool, but that would require me to weld the uniball to the LCA. I want it to be like a factory replacement but with a uniball instead of a ball joint.

 

[thebrandon]

Either way I am interested in seeing if this will work.

I hope you can get it to work as you plan because it would be a big step forward for the lower ball joints on these trucks.

The factory ones seem to last, but a uniball lower joint is just cooler, and less scary .

 

[MojaveMadMan]

Ya this is a hope, but no promisses. I am hoping I can get something going. The big hang up is the damn tapered pin I would need to use to keep it 100% bolt on. The only ones I can find are $100 a pair... add in the uniball and other parts and this gets rather expensive... IT might be a drill and go type thing if you wanna do the upgrade.

I am also entertaining making a 100% fabricated part. I am looking at getting some 1/2" material laser cut and CNC bent to match the original balljoint. Then I can put the uniball in that material, and also weld on some additional material to complete the part. Also considering an adapter to change the outer tie rod into a heim as well to complete the overhaul of that weak area... I know I'm dreaming big here. One step at a time. I have the knowledge and skill to do it, so we will see how far down the rabit hole I go..

 

[Robb235]

Damn, I just threw mine out a few weeks ago. I had them sitting in an old coffee can, and my wife got tired of looking at them on the living room table, so I threw them out.

I'm interested to see where this goes too.

 

[Nelsonmd]

So I don't have specific experience with Uniballs, but I would think that you want to orient the LBJ in the horizontal direction, like the Upper ball joint in this picture. That way the force on the ball is in the direction perpendicular to the stud, meaning your force ISN'T in the direction to slip the outer race off the ball.

Look at how Toyota revised the design of the LBJ for the 4th gen 4runner and the FJ, etc.

Since the spring is pushing down on the lower arm at all times, in both the above picture, and on the stock 3rd gen LBJ, the ball is in tension, wanting to pop out of the cup. On the 4th gen and FJ's, the spring puts the ball in compression, so you shouldn't have separation failures.

I assume uniballs aren't THAT different from the LBJ's. I could see the argument that you don't want the stud in shear loading from the spring, but shear seems better than cantilevered too. Anyway, let me know y'alls thoughts on that. If you're designing your own, you ought to consider all the options.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

If you were going custom instead of bolt on, then you could put a horizontal uniball in there. You would have to basically cut the end off of the LCA and weld the uniball cup to the control arm. Then you could build tabs to go off the spindle for the connection. But this would require you to modify the stock vehicle in order to make this happen, which I am trying to avoid as I want this to be something anyone can do if they want to add some strength without going crazy.

Also a note about vertical uniballs like the UCA in your picture, they drastically reduce the amount of steering radious you have. Before I joined the military I did a lot of offroad fabrication for a few large shops in San Diego. We did cars with both horizontal and vertical pivots. For the under powered race cars you would want the horizontal because it gave you alot more steering capability. For the high power cars you could use the vertical style because you had enough power to spin the back end of the car around with the engine and rear tire spin. For our 4runners, these are deffinetly low power rigs and losing steering would be a disadvantage I think in the big picture.

As far as the bearings slipping out of races. I don't see this as a concern. These are designed to run horizontally (as the lower arm in your picture has) with no issue. I can see your point about a constant load causing them to wear a little faster, but given the contraints of the suspension and wanting to keep it a bolt in, this is a draw back I can live with. I think with the drastic increase in the size of the joint compaired to stock, you are gaining some longevity that way. Also, if the cup is mounted with the C-clip pointing down, you aren't going to have any load on that removable part in the cup, so there shouldn't be a concern for failure there.

Talking about the 4th gen design vs. the 3rd gen, I don't see a difference in strength personally. I am not an engineer so if someonce can explain this I would be interested. I think it is more just an improvement in manufacturing design. It is much cheaper and easier to manifacture a small ball joint that can be pressed in and out of the LCA than to make a complicated LBJ that also 2nd's as a steering componant as well. This also adds to the complexity of the maintenance for the technicians because they have to remove steering componants in order to change the LBJ. IMO the 4th gen was engineered that way to save money on construction, make it easier for Toyota mechanics, and so they can get work done faster and make more money at the dealership...

 

[Nelsonmd]

If you were going custom instead of bolt on, then you could put a horizontal uniball in there. You would have to basically cut the end off of the LCA and weld the uniball cup to the control arm. Then you could build tabs to go off the spindle for the connection. But this would require you to modify the stock vehicle in order to make this happen, which I am trying to avoid as I want this to be something anyone can do if they want to add some strength without going crazy.

Also a note about vertical uniballs like the UCA in your picture, they drastically reduce the amount of steering radious you have. Before I joined the military I did a lot of offroad fabrication for a few large shops in San Diego. We did cars with both horizontal and vertical pivots. For the under powered race cars you would want the horizontal because it gave you alot more steering capability. For the high power cars you could use the vertical style because you had enough power to spin the back end of the car around with the engine and rear tire spin. For our 4runners, these are deffinetly low power rigs and losing steering would be a disadvantage I think in the big picture.

As far as the bearings slipping out of races. I don't see this as a concern. These are designed to run horizontally (as the lower arm in your picture has) with no issue. I can see your point about a constant load causing them to wear a little faster, but given the contraints of the suspension and wanting to keep it a bolt in, this is a draw back I can live with. I think with the drastic increase in the size of the joint compaired to stock, you are gaining some longevity that way. Also, if the cup is mounted with the C-clip pointing down, you aren't going to have any load on that removable part in the cup, so there shouldn't be a concern for failure there.

Talking about the 4th gen design vs. the 3rd gen, I don't see a difference in strength personally. I am not an engineer so if someonce can explain this I would be interested. I think it is more just an improvement in manufacturing design. It is much cheaper and easier to manifacture a small ball joint that can be pressed in and out of the LCA than to make a complicated LBJ that also 2nd's as a steering componant as well. This also adds to the complexity of the maintenance for the technicians because they have to remove steering componants in order to change the LBJ. IMO the 4th gen was engineered that way to save money on construction, make it easier for Toyota mechanics, and so they can get work done faster and make more money at the dealership...

Good point about the steering reduction, I hadn't thought about that. That does kind of defeat any strength benefit of running the uniball laterally.

As far as the 3rd vs 4th gen LBJ's, it really isn't a manufacturing benefit, it is a HUGE safety improvement. Look at the 3rd vs 4th gen LBJ's and imagine that the ball and cup of each was severely worn to the point that the ball can slip out of the cup. Now look at the loading from the spring, which forces the LCA down. On the 3rd gen, the downward force on the LCA will force the ball right out of the cup, and the whole wheel and spindle basically falls off the vehicle. On the 4th gen, the downward force keeps the cup clamped down over the ball, so you don't get separation, just looseness in steering.

I bet you anything that this was discussed by Toyota and some higher strength steel alloy was used in the LBJ's to improve strength to overcome the poor design. Then for 4th gen they fixed the design. I'm not sure why the 2nd gen's don't seem to fail as much as they are a similar loading configuration, but this just stinks of an "oh $&!%" moment at Toyota.

This is also why we say only use OEM LBJ's, it seems you really need the high strength steel alloy to not fail within the 60-90k life of the LBJ.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

You have a good point, way to dumb it down for me there, haha. I have not seen a failed one in person. Is it the ball that comes out of the joint, or the pin itself that breaks most often?

Now that I am thinking about it, you would actually want the cup set up so that the lip was facing down, and the C-clip on the top. Even when you hit a bump, it is going to try and pull the LCA down away from the spindle, no up into the spindle like the 4th gen. If I put the lip facing down, it will actually make a huge improvement because there is no way for the uniball to pull down and out, that lip is thick and in all my years of down this, I have never seen a joint fail like that. Even on the unlimited race cars. The cups get wabled out, but I have never seen a ball push through the lip. Through the C-clip ya, but not the lip. Wow now that I think about it am am glad you saw your argument through. I have always done them like the 4th gens... This does make me feel more confident about it being even stronger now though!

 

[AZTOY]

You have a good point, way to dumb it down for me there, haha. I have not seen a failed one in person. Is it the ball that comes out of the joint, or the pin itself that breaks most often?

Now that I am thinking about it, you would actually want the cup set up so that the lip was facing down, and the C-clip on the top. Even when you hit a bump, it is going to try and pull the LCA down away from the spindle, no up into the spindle like the 4th gen. If I put the lip facing down, it will actually make a huge improvement because there is no way for the uniball to pull down and out, that lip is thick and in all my years of down this, I have never seen a joint fail like that. Even on the unlimited race cars. The cups get wabled out, but I have never seen a ball push through the lip. Through the C-clip ya, but not the lip. Wow now that I think about it am am glad you saw your argument through. I have always done them like the 4th gens... This does make me feel more confident about it being even stronger now though!

So, did you ever come up with anything?

 

[Z-4runner]

REviving an old thread but I too had this idea and this is where I am at with it so far. I still need to do a mock up. The hardest part is keeping the original pin length the same. I may have to machine a custom uniball cup that allows the uniball to come up 1/16" of an inch in the cup so that the pin length remains the same as stock and no geometry is affected. Will also be adapting a hiem for the steering and adding a tab to make it double shear, while retaining the stock steering geometry so nothing is affected and this would be a direct bolt in replacement.

p.s. dont mind the 1/4" plate, its just a fixture for centering the uniball cup.

 

[Asaspades93]

I'm willing to test these

 

[Nelsonmd]

I'm failing to see the advantage of this... You still haven't changed the loading on the ball joint. The suspension is still pulling the ball out of the cup, same as the flawed OEM design. You would still be relying on the material of the uniball being just as strong as the OEM LBJ.

The only way this could really be stronger is if the cup came around the ball further, but that would restrict range of motion of the ball.

For the record, I'd say the same thing about the race dezert pics. Their design actually looks worse than the stock design because it uses a welded bolt that is smaller than the stock ball stud, and the end of the pin sticks way down below the arm.

If your'e going to weld up a custom LBJ, then I think you should find a way to change the geometry to make it like the 4th gen one.

Maybe try adapting a 4th gen LBJ onto a 3rd gen knuckle? Or try to swap in a 4th gen knuckle assembly into 3rd gen suspension?