-----Lower Ball Joint- Uniball Conversion-----

[nobb]

You're right, the weld is likely overdone. That's not the concern, it's the ball and stud which often break in the OEM joint. The ball is overbuilt here, but you're still using the same diameter stud, and the welding heat can significantly affect the strength of the material.

Or sometimes you might not even want the hardest part. That makes it brittle. That could be why the OEM bolts arent made with the highest grade steel. Unless an engineer/metallurgist that is specialized in this area can chip in, we're just making assumptions.

Even the shittiest chassis part maker will heat treat their parts and possibly NDE the welds on a few samples.

 

[D Farms]

id like to see some tests where you apply a load from the top, with a press that has a scale for force. [MENTION=75445]4Running Daily[/MENTION] and I took some lower ball joints apart the othet day and considering its a forged part it seems it would take a lot of force for the ball joint to simply pop out the way you see all over the internet.

What seems likely is that people are running massive top plate spacers and this causes the lower ball joints to get to the end of their travel and then stretch the socket of the ball joint. I personally run a quarter inch top plate spacer with my tundra 5100s and the lbj would start to bind if the suspension drooped an inch or so more.

tldr: lbjs probably fail from being stretched when they come to the limit of misalignment, it may be worth getting as much misalignment as possible to prevent binding and any potential failure assosciated with it.

 

[97t4r81]

I hope it works, this is awesome. I would drive on that. Op you rock thanks

 

[Z-4runner]

Are uniball designs not greased?

They have a Teflon lining inside that acts as the lubrication. But grease or wd40 will only attract dirt and wear it out faster. A dry film lubricant is the best route.

 

[Z-4runner]

If you pay for shipping, I can send you my old LBJs - they have 140k on them. Still on the truck, but am replacing them in the next week or so.

DM me, I would appreciate the core and I'll gladly pay the shipping. I don't care about the mileage, as long as the forged part isn't thrashed.

 

[Twisted Sid]

I hate to sound negative, because you've done some very nice work there, but I'd have serious concerns about the integrity of both the arm and the uni-ball cup after putting that much heat on them during welding.

That's going to alter the heat treatment on both parts, and both of them will have fairly critical tolerances for hardness.

I'm not a metallurgist by any stretch, but I've been around automotive heat treat processes for a lot of years and it's tricky business that has to be done right for the parts to perform like they're supposed to.

If you're planning selling these you should probably get some failure analysis done, have one cross sectioned and checked for hardness, and maybe consider another heat treat or draw after you've done the welding.

You'd be looking at a serious amount of liability if you sell them and have a failure out on the road that resulted in injuries.

Again, they're nice looking parts, but you know the old saying: No good dead goes unpunished! out:

Those are very good points. By using an old casting and welding ontop, you change the OEM heat treatment of that material. It affects the casting, the ball, and the stud. You are also potentially applying heat unevenly, causing various internal stresses in the material and welds after it cools down. Those are points of failure.

The welds looks good, but even an experienced welder is never perfectly consistent every time. So even if you get this sample tested, there is no guarantee that all subsequent creations will have the same material strengths/properties. You would want the welds to be NDE tested (eg. radiographic, x-ray, magnetic particle) on every part that is made to make sure the welds are good quality. There is a reason why OEM parts are expensive.

Finally, depending on the grade of steel, the part/weld could become brittled in the cold. This will also affect the weld strength, especially if there are internal stresses already present from not properly heat treating the part after welding.

Sorry for the criticism and the OCD on quality, but these lower ball joints are such a critical safety component that I would be hesitant on taking this on as a business. It's the fact that Toyota designed the placement/geometry of these lower ball joints improperly from the beginning. I would be less picky if it was an upper ball joint or something.

So all the fab shops that make uniball long travel suspensions are doing it wrong by welding on the uniball cups, when that is specifically what the are made for? :suspicious:
If you look in the 3rd pic that the OP posted, it looks like he has a uniball slug in there that is used to help keep the cup from warping and pulls heat out of it during the welding process. On top of that, the double weave tig weld, is beautiful. Seems like he knows what he is doing...

 

[jeremyc74]

So all the fab shops that make uniball long travel suspensions are doing it wrong by welding on the uniball cups, when that is specifically what the are made for? :suspicious:
..

I'm not saying he's "doing it wrong", what I'm saying is that if you're going to sell a part like this where the failure mode could result in multiple deaths, you better cover your ass.

And even if the uniball cup is designed to be welded on, the original arm wasn't.

There's a lot of force on suspension components, and the hardness of the parts matters. I've recently worked on a project for TRW, testing steering racks as they're produced. They get tested under load to simulate driving conditions, and we're applying 12k lbs of resistance against the rack while it's moving in each direction. The steering arms that rack is attached to when it's installed are subject to the same forces. It's not something to play around with. And those are for medium size cars. The numbers go way up for the trucks.

 

[ajonesnv]

PM'ed

 

[nobb]

I'm not saying he's "doing it wrong", what I'm saying is that if you're going to sell a part like this where the failure mode could result in multiple deaths, you better cover your ass.

Exactly, it's easy for people to underestimate the amount of engineering and testing that goes into making a mass produced part.

You also cant compare a heavy duty, one off custom racing part to something mass produced. A part that's designed to take heavy abuse in a week long Baja 1000 race does not necessarily mean it will last 20+ years in a daily driving application with salt and corrosion.

I'm sure this part will most likely work, it's just accounting for all the possible failure modes and ensuring the design is solid.

 

[Twisted Sid]

I'm not saying he's "doing it wrong", what I'm saying is that if you're going to sell a part like this where the failure mode could result in multiple deaths, you better cover your ass.

And even if the uniball cup is designed to be welded on, the original arm wasn't.

There's a lot of force on suspension components, and the hardness of the parts matters. I've recently worked on a project for TRW, testing steering racks as they're produced. They get tested under load to simulate driving conditions, and we're applying 12k lbs of resistance against the rack while it's moving in each direction. The steering arms that rack is attached to when it's installed are subject to the same forces. It's not something to play around with. And those are for medium size cars. The numbers go way up for the trucks.

I'm sure he is aware of what can happen if something fails. I would be more worried about one of the cheap ebay upper arms failing more then these though.
The only issue I can foresee is if the stock ball joints bodys are cast. I know that can make a difference but either are weldable if welded correctly. I do see people weld on factory cast parts all the time and rarely have issues though.
Anyone who is buying these SHOULD (but likely wont) realize that this is a custom made replacement part that they are choosing to install and take any and all risk themselves but know anything can fail, just like a replacement ball joint.

Exactly, it's easy for people to underestimate the amount of engineering and testing that goes into making a mass produced part.

You also cant compare a heavy duty, one off custom racing part to something mass produced. A part that's designed to take heavy abuse in a week long Baja 1000 race does not necessarily mean it will last 20+ years in a daily driving application with salt and corrosion.

I'm sure this part will most likely work, it's just accounting for all the possible failure modes and ensuring the design is solid.

First, these are not meant to be used for a Baja 1000 race. They are an upgraded stock part.

I have been running a Total Chaos uniball kit on my pickup for 6 years that that has thousands of dirt miles on it, that I also daily drove for 5 years, and not one issue. I got it used with old uniballs. The guy I got the kit from works for TC and he wasn't nice to it. I just recently replaced the 4 uniballs as maintenance but they were not totally warn out.
You also have to realize that a lot of these parts are meant to be used in dry deserts and that not everyone lives in a place where salt is used. If your location isn't those things, then maybe these aren't for you. I have had bare steel on my engine cage for 6 years and can wipe the rust off with a scotchbrite pad and wd40.

If a big company who mass produces things (like toyota) could account for every possible failure, then the stock lower ball joints on these trucks wouldn't be a failure point like they are.

 

[Z-4runner]

As far as heat treating goes it's feel it isn't applicable in this situation. The lower ball joint housing is forged and is very similar to standard steel. Welding on it doesn't affect the temper ( heat treat isn't a physical property, it's a process. Temper is the word you guys were looking for) enough to cause any problems. I would be the ranch that the forged parts from any manufacturer were not sent to heat treat. A forged part is pounded into shape when it's near molten, condensing molecules making it a very strong part and a dream to weld on.

I appreciate the concern guys. I know there are risks to selling these. I will be taking these to destructive testing once I get the next set built. I am fairly certain that my weld will break before the ball or bolt will. The welding wire is rated for 70,000 lbs of tensile strength and if anyone applies more force than that I think these will be the last thing he would need to worry about. Some of you talk as if I just half assed this over night, like I don't have attention to detail and I'm not OCD enough. I've got 3 months of R&D into these, including talking to a metallurgist, fk uniball company, and to a few offroad guys who have been racing and building 30+ years which I also work with building sand cars, custom side by side vehicles and $350k prerunners for people over in Dubai. I am no stranger to this type of stuff. Do I know everything, of course not and there are things I will overlook and have. I've built about 6 sets of spacers trying to get it perfect and more economical to manufacture. I do not believe I am some genius that knows it all, but don't try to insult my intelligence or quality of work.

And as far as even the shittiest chassis builders heat treating every chassis and every part and then getting them x-rayed, I would like to know what chassis builders you are referring to? At least in offroad the only reason you would heat treat is if you wanted to go lighter on the materials used ie. wall thickness of tubing, plate etc. to save weight on a race car. The thinner material needs the extra strength to avoid failure. Big companies do it because they have the money even if it's not necessary. It will always add strength but 99% of the time if something continuely breaks it's a design problem, and no amount of heat treat can fix a crappie design. I have built hundreds of a arms, trailing arms and chromoly parts for offroad vehicles with no heat treat and I haven't had one come back yet.

 

[nobb]

Not trying to insult your experience as it is valid. Just realize there is difference between understanding the engineering R&D behind a part vs being able to assemble some parts together. There are often things that an experienced builder does not consider on the engineering side and vice-versa.

Forged parts are stronger vs cast because of the metallic structure, but they are heat treated after welding as well. Heat treatment is required anytime you are creating a heat affected zone (HAZ) to a material from cold. The only time you wouldn't need heat treatment is through forge welding.

Actually now that you mention it, I'm not sure about shitty chassis parts being heat treated. You can tell by looking at a polished part if it has been heat treated via the discoloration. And some of the shitty no name parts really do look terrible. But on the better quality stuff, you often see them advertising that the stud/part is heat treated (Moog, Raybestos). If they are doing it, there is a reason for it and not because "they have money even if it's not necessary." Big companies are run lean, and they will try to skimp on things more-so than a custom builder. Sometimes the failure won't manifest itself until years have passed from continued stresses and corrosion, or if you encounter a rare isolated incident that wasn't planned for.

Does heat treatment matter on uniball designs? Is the welding far/isolated enough that it doesn't matter? How does the heat affect the teflon seat in the uniball? I'm not sure. Just realize it's a risk anytime you dump that much heat onto a part. Not saying this design is better or worse than OEM because I don't know and won't claim to know.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Just my 5 cents here (adjusted for inflation), but as is often the case I believe the argument is more about one's personal preferences than how things work in the real world.

Toyota didn't experiment with the annealing process on THIS particular part to come up with an optimum hardness. They went with what they know has worked before and called it good. Turned out the design was the issue, not the hardness.

In the off road and racing world parts like this are sold as "not for street use" in general. They are using disclaimers because if everyone truly did all the due diligence the parts cost would be astronomical for the volume sold.

To the OP I say, awesome job, and I'd use that part in a heartbeat and never look back. Would I jump my truck over 6 buses? NO!

To the critics I say, point taken, thank you.

:guitar3:

 

[Z-4runner]

Not trying to insult your experience as it is valid. Just realize there is difference between understanding the engineering R&D behind a part vs being able to assemble some parts together. There are often things that an experienced builder does not consider on the engineering side and vice-versa.

Forged parts are stronger vs cast because of the metallic structure, but they are heat treated after welding as well. Heat treatment is required anytime you are creating a heat affected zone (HAZ) to a material from cold. The only time you wouldn't need heat treatment is through forge welding.

Actually now that you mention it, I'm not sure about shitty chassis parts being heat treated. You can tell by looking at a polished part if it has been heat treated via the discoloration. And some of the shitty no name parts really do look terrible. But on the better quality stuff, you often see them advertising that the stud/part is heat treated (Moog, Raybestos). If they are doing it, there is a reason for it and not because "they have money even if it's not necessary." Big companies are run lean, and they will try to skimp on things more-so than a custom builder. Sometimes the failure won't manifest itself until years have passed from continued stresses and corrosion, or if you encounter a rare isolated incident that wasn't planned for.

Does heat treatment matter on uniball designs? Is the welding far/isolated enough that it doesn't matter? How does the heat affect the teflon seat in the uniball? I'm not sure. Just realize it's a risk anytime you dump that much heat onto a part. Not saying this design is better or worse than OEM because I don't know and won't claim to know.

There was never any heat put into the uniball itself. I put an aluminum slug in the cup to absorb heat and keep the shape. I understand what R&D is. Strength testing, material quality, how the parts works or takes force. I didn't just assemble these parts willy-nilly. I understand the termine engineers use called engineering. I dont have some big plaque from a 4 year university. But ive built enough to understand what works and doesnt. A big difference from sitting in a room and drawing it on paper. Just because a part is welded doesn't mean it NEEDS to be heat treated. Countless motorsports, aerospace, buildings, and so on are welded and then left alone. Like I said, I talked to a metallurgist about this and he gave me the green light. As long as the part is not flash cooled it will not be affected enough to matter.

The stud I am using is a 5/8×18tpi grade 8 or f911 bolt, not too sure which yet as both have pros and cons, but do I need to heat treat those? Nope. Already taken care of by the bolt manufacturer. The uniball is a heat treated stainless which was taken care of by the manufacturer. Now the cup being welded to the forged part was done in stages as to not put heat into the part and brought down in temperature slowly and not welded on too much as to put as little heat in as possible.

For not knowing how a uniball set-up works it seems like your trying to prove that if I don't heat treat everything it will fail. If you do not trust that I did my homework, weld them correctly or use quality materials then don't buy them.

 

[jeremyc74]

I'm sure he is aware of what can happen if something fails. I would be more worried about one of the cheap ebay upper arms failing more then these though.
The only issue I can foresee is if the stock ball joints bodys are cast. I know that can make a difference but either are weldable if welded correctly. I do see people weld on factory cast parts all the time and rarely have issues though.
Anyone who is buying these SHOULD (but likely wont) realize that this is a custom made replacement part that they are choosing to install and take any and all risk themselves but know anything can fail, just like a replacement ball joint.

They are cast parts. You can tell by the texture left from the sand mold and the lines where the two halve go together.

If there was a failure and a lawsuit after the fact, it won't matter if the person who installs the parts is aware that they're custom made. The entire liability will be on the person who manufactured and sold the parts. It might not be the owner of the 4Runner who's injured or killed, so it makes no difference if he assumes the risk.

Here's the bottom line:
If you're going to sell parts like this, you HAVE to do your due diligence. That means that at the very least you need to have a P.E. (professional engineer licensed by the state) run a failure analysis on them and sign off that they'll handle the loads.

Beyond that you also need some documented quality control procedures to make sure they're being made consistently. Anything less than that and you're running the risk of being sued out of existence if one fails.

 

[jeremyc74]

The stud I am using is a 5/8×18tpi grade 8 or f911 bolt, not too sure which yet as both have pros and cons, but do I need to heat treat those? Nope. Already taken care of by the bolt manufacturer.

You're not welding on them after the fact either.

 

[nobb]

Toyota didn't experiment with the annealing process on THIS particular part to come up with an optimum hardness. They went with what they know has worked before and called it good. Turned out the design was the issue, not the hardness.

You bring up a good point about Toyota not doing their due diligence. Not to de-rail the thread, but fact of the matter is it's Toyota's fault for using a shitty design. They regurgitated the ball joint geometry from the 2nd gen trucks while going from a torsion bar to a coil-over setup without thinking this through. This forces the lower ball joint to not just hold the wheel in place, but also to be tension loaded. The ball joint should NEVER be in tension...it's just bad engineering. You'll notice on all newer Toyota trucks, they've flipped the design such that the lower weight bearing joint is now under compression. I'm surprised there isn't a mass lawsuit over this yet.

The OEM part IS a strong Japanese made part and even if you upgrade to a stronger uniball design, the part will still wear out eventually causing some mode of catastrophic failure because of Toyota's suspension geometry. This brings up another good point. Perhaps the design should be something of which you can tell is going bad with ample, safe warning (eg. play) so that the owner can immediately replace the part. Do uniballs behave in that manner?

 

[Z-4runner]

Just my 5 cents here (adjusted for inflation), but as is often the case I believe the argument is more about one's personal preferences than how things work in the real world.

Toyota didn't experiment with the annealing process on THIS particular part to come up with an optimum hardness. They went with what they know has worked before and called it good. Turned out the design was the issue, not the hardness.

In the off road and racing world parts like this are sold as "not for street use" in general. They are using disclaimers because if everyone truly did all the due diligence the parts cost would be astronomical for the volume sold.

To the OP I say, awesome job, and I'd use that part in a heartbeat and never look back. Would I jump my truck over 6 buses? NO!

To the critics I say, point taken, thank you.

:guitar3:

Could not have summed it up any better!



Also they are a forged part, at least that's what the Rockwell hardness test says. Anyone else like to claim I didn't do my homework. :thumb3:

 

[Z-4runner]

. Do uniballs behave in that manner?

Yes the teflon lining in the uniball will be the first to go. Then you will notice a clunk. Even the most used and abused uniball will not just pull out of its socket. At that point it's on the vehicle owner to understand its time to replace.

 

[MStudt]

Companies that make/manufacture custom off road parts have a liability disclaimer for a reason. Hell, even I have one that was worded by a Business/Commercial lawyer for these exact reasons. Having your potential buyer sign off on a disclaimer stating that they assume all risk associated with said part is all you need. First off you have a legal binding document from your lawyer, and secondly the buyer has acknowledge the liability by signing off on your disclaimer.

Most companies like All-Pro, TC, and Camburg all have these disclaimers putting the liability on the end user. The only reason you need insurance if your making these is to cover yourself in case you're injured while making them. I've been down this road with another company that I worked for in the past. We went to court over someone trying to sue due to a product failure. Long story short is there was no way to prove any fault on our part. There's no way tell how the part was used, abused, or maintained. Without being able to document those points you can't point a finger.