Missouri Legislature upholds 'Stand Your Ground,' concealed carry law — requiring no

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Want to know what I think is retarded? Schools full of kids, theatres full of people, or malls full of shoppers being executed by people who should not have had access to a gun in the first place. We have very good gun laws in my opinion. More restrictive than the US but if you want to own a handgun or AR-15 then go for it- you just need to demonstrate your ability to do so and pass background checks by the RCMP. No we we can't walk around armed like you can in the US but big deal.

As for Socialism... Canada ranks as one of the most economically free countries in the world- often ahead of the US. Ironically, your government is much more indebted than ours and at least we have things to show for it like... a health-care system that is accessible to everyone.

You're welcome to your opinion. I do not share it. And people are no more "safe" in schools, theaters, malls- etc with or without gun laws. At least here in the USA I can decide to arm myself in defense of those mad men who seek to do harm to people.

It's interesting that almost ALL mass shootings happen in gun free zones. Hmmmmmm.......

IT may not be a big deal to you to not be able to defend your life and property, but that's pretty much #1 on my list. To be able to defend myself, my family and my fellow humans from others seeking to do us harm.


I am not a subject, I do not want nor trust others to be in charge of my defense and I am not giving up my rights or freedoms (Any of them) because there are crazy people out there who wish to do others harm.

Liberty > Safety

^Too few people get that, sadly.
 
Every single one of those arguments applies equally to auto insurance. Every single one. Do you feel auto insurance is wrong? Do you think it's a bad idea? Do you think it's ineffective?
I know its off subject, but yes. but mostly due to the fact that it is required. it should be a choice.

Yes, the second amendment is the right to bear arms. And the first amendment is the right to free speech but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, can you? Like I said, the government restricts even your constitutionally guaranteed rights when exercising those rights infringes on the safety of others. People carrying guns is a safety issue. You cannot deny there is a safety concern with gun ownership and carrying.
sure you can. what is stopping you?

you will just suffer the consequences if caught.

The problem is people who are irresponsible and who should seek training don't and then when they do get punished those of us who are responsible get lumped in with them when the opposing side wants to talk gun control.

Same thing with cars, because some twat with a 4,000lbs sedan killed a family because facebook read more important than paying attention to the road; now I have to deal with their consequences.

Personally, comprising a bit and having the state pay for a 8hr training course before they give me my paper to carry whatever I want, when I want is only a nuisance. And if ur keeps cross eyed drunk Jim Bob Jimmy from shooting his piece in the air because his team lost and he's drunk, I'm okay with that compromise. At least until we reduce the stupidity we create some.
training would not prevent such a thing.



Want to know what I think is retarded? Schools full of kids, theatres full of people, or malls full of shoppers being executed by people who should not have had access to a gun in the first place. We have very good gun laws in my opinion. More restrictive than the US but if you want to own a handgun or AR-15 then go for it- you just need to demonstrate your ability to do so and pass background checks by the RCMP. No we we can't walk around armed like you can in the US but big deal.

As for Socialism... Canada ranks as one of the most economically free countries in the world- often ahead of the US. Ironically, your government is much more indebted than ours and at least we have things to show for it like... a health-care system that is accessible to everyone.
but but but, there are no guns allowed in schools. the sign says so. how did those bad guys ever get passed the massive barrier that is words on a paper?




that isn't something I would brag about if I were you. im glad we do not have it...

You're welcome to your opinion. I do not share it. And people are no more "safe" in schools, theaters, malls- etc with or without gun laws. At least here in the USA I can decide to arm myself in defense of those mad men who seek to do harm to people.

It's interesting that almost ALL mass shootings happen in gun free zones. Hmmmmmm.......

IT may not be a big deal to you to not be able to defend your life and property, but that's pretty much #1 on my list. To be able to defend myself, my family and my fellow humans from others seeking to do us harm.


I am not a subject, I do not want nor trust others to be in charge of my defense and I am not giving up my rights or freedoms (Any of them) because there are crazy people out there who wish to do others harm.

Liberty > Safety

^Too few people get that, sadly.
agreed.

im glad that Missouri changed things for their citizens. but it boggles my mind, that anyone would have abided by such a nonsense law in the first place.

stand your ground laws, and castle laws, whether they existed here or not, I would be defending myself and my family. first and foremost. "this might not be legal" wouldn't even cross my mind.
 
You're welcome to your opinion. I do not share it. And people are no more "safe" in schools, theaters, malls- etc with or without gun laws. At least here in the USA I can decide to arm myself in defense of those mad men who seek to do harm to people.

It's interesting that almost ALL mass shootings happen in gun free zones. Hmmmmmm.......
I can arm myself too. I actually do own guns so do many others- Canada has a high rate of gun ownership. I think it's interesting that mass shootings happen so often in the US despite the high rate of gun ownership. I mean, even in Canada, if you want to go on a shooting spree, you really could. I think a big part of the difference is that there is much more scrutiny before being eligible to posses guns. As I mentioned, you can own guns and assault rifles. You just require a license to do so. I don't see what's wrong with that.


IT may not be a big deal to you to not be able to defend your life and property, but that's pretty much #1 on my list. To be able to defend myself, my family and my fellow humans from others seeking to do us harm.


I am not a subject, I do not want nor trust others to be in charge of my defense and I am not giving up my rights or freedoms (Any of them) because there are crazy people out there who wish to do others harm.

Liberty > Safety

^Too few people get that, sadly.
I respect that thought and there is nothing wrong with wanting to do so. I do believe in the right to own guns. I just happen to believe in strong rules on WHO can own guns.
On the flip side, I think you think you are freer than you really are- and I don't say that to imply that I think I am freer than you. We are all subjects. Yeah democracy is great but there is still a big body governing over our everyday lives telling us what we can and can't do each day.

but but but, there are no guns allowed in schools. the sign says so. how did those bad guys ever get passed the massive barrier that is words on a paper?


that isn't something I would brag about if I were you. im glad we do not have it...
I don't really get the gun free zone argument. There is definitely a better explanation for why innocent people continue to get executed stateside. Perhaps if there was more scrutiny and a more responsible view on gun ownership, the whackjobs wouldn't get guns so easily. At this point though.... any change in policy probably wouldn't make a difference.

As for health-care:
Yeah it is terrible. You go to the hospital and receive top notch healthcare and it costs you nothing. It is considered a basic right in Canada. Anyway, I only brought this up because a comment was made about Canada being a Socialist country when in fact it is more economically free than the US. What was also ironic about that comment is that "Socialist" Canada is much less indebted than the US and at least we have things to show for it such as health-care.
 
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I can arm myself too. I actually do own guns so do many others- Canada has a high rate of gun ownership. I think it's interesting that mass shootings happen so often in the US despite the high rate of gun ownership. I mean, even in Canada, if you want to go on a shooting spree, you really could. I think a big part of the difference is that there is much more scrutiny before being eligible to posses guns. As I mentioned, you can own guns and assault rifles. You just require a license to do so. I don't see what's wrong with that.



I respect that thought and there is nothing wrong with wanting to do so. I do believe in the right to own guns. I just happen to believe in strong rules on WHO can own guns.
On the flip side, I think you think you are freer than you really are- and I don't say that to imply that I think I am freer than you. We are all subjects. Yeah democracy is great but there is still a big body governing over our everyday lives telling us what we can and can't do each day.


I don't really get the gun free zone argument. There is definitely a better explanation for why innocent people continue to get executed stateside. Perhaps if there was more scrutiny and a more responsible view on gun ownership, the whackjobs wouldn't get guns so easily. At this point though.... any change in policy probably wouldn't make a difference.

As for health-care:
Yeah it is terrible. You go to the hospital and receive top notch healthcare and it costs you nothing. It is considered a basic right in Canada. Anyway, I only brought this up because a comment was made about Canada being a Socialist country when in fact it is more economically free than the US. What was also ironic about that comment is that "Socialist" Canada is much less indebted than the US and at least we have things to show for it such as health-care.

Freedom is an individual thing. I am freer than most as I do what I find to be "right" regardless of laws or licensing or anything else. Freedom is a state off mind, it isn't what someone or some Government gives you, it is how you are or are not.

That being said, I still believe that minimizing laws and regulations is the best way to go. It isn't necessarily "Safe" and I don't care for the false promise of "safety" in trade for my rights, even if it is just a "restriction" on a right, I will not follow it. To me Rights are absolute as long as you don't infringe on others rights.

I do not believe in any "Scrutiny" or "Allowing" or "disallowing" someone, anyone a "Right".

Up in Canada you don't have gun rights. You are allowed or disallowed at the behest of the state. You may find that to be just dandy and acceptable. I find it to be deplorable and completely unacceptable.

You did hit a nail on the head- RE Canada/USA gun ownership rates versus mass shootings. It isn't a gun thing, it is a cultural, socioeconomic and mental health thing.

There is nothing stopping anyone from acquiring a gun (By any means) and going on a shooting spree except for themselves. In any country really. Gun laws, laws in general- be damned.

Just like there isn't anything stopping anyone from pouring gasoline into a bottle, lighting it and throwing it into a crowded shopping mall, except for themselves.

A beast exists in every man, every man deals with it differently and has control over it differently. Some push it so far away they are docile. Some embrace it so often they are mad.

My point is that human nature, genetics and our environment dictates what people will do, not inanimate objects.

If there was not a single gun on this planet people would still commit evil. And mass murder wouldn't go away.

Honestly, guns are one of the worst ways to commit mass murder. I'm glad the wackos haven't caught on to that yet.

A little gasoline a few glass bottles and old cotton shirt and some matches- you can light the world on fire.

Some diesel fuel and fertilizer- dang-o man you can do some carnage.

I could keep going but it isn't worthwhile.

Some people are mad, the objects they choose to commit heinous acts really have nothing to do with it.
 
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training would not prevent such a thing.
...

Prevent? Most likely not, educate the larger average the correct places, times, and methods of handling their CCW so as not to be in conflict with the law and reduce those types of incidents; that's a more likely outcome.

Look I fully understand it's a very fine line I'm proposing, I'm not trying to suggest a method of refusing the right to carry (though at the current state of affairs, Open and Concealed Carry are treated differently in different states and even the 9th Circuit Court has decided to make a point on that); rather I'm trying to suggest that a small nuisance like having to pass a training course would not be a bad idea in today's relatively irresponsible and incompetent America.

Before I left California they had instituted a "Pistol Permit" and "Long Gun Permit", now I think they were being a bit greedy to charge $20 for BOTH permits and should have rolled them into one. But obtaining the permit is beyond simple for anyone who has ever exercised even a modicum of weapon safety training and practice. Literally 2/3 of the questions are common-sense gun safety and the rest you just answer like a twat liberal and you pass with 100%. Now there's gonna be idiots that can't figure out the answer to "What is the first thing you check before cleaning your weapon?" and those people will need to be given a quick lecture on how to clear the chamber and verify that their weapon is safe before cleaning; now they get to check that answer as "good" and go on their merry way with the knowledge of how to be a better gun owner and hopefully they'll even be responsible enough to practice it.

Like I said, its a nuisance and a bit of a money grab from California; but honestly it's hardly an infringement on my 2nd amendment because only a completely incompetent person couldn't answer that question and if they can't they'll get helped right at the counter to learn the correct answer and still pass.

The huge majority of common-sense and simple mistakes I see from people at the range and when they handle weapons along with the numerous stories and incidents I read/see/hear these days makes me at least appreciate something as mildly annoying as that "Permit Test."

So like I said, due to the current trend of irresponsibility, lack of education, and over all idiocy in this country; instituting a mild nuisance like needing to pass an 8-hr training course that should be paid for by the state/government (I am a strong proponent that if the government wants to push something like this then they should pay for it) should be nothing more than a mild nuisance for responsible experienced gun owners. But at the very least it will educate those who are new to guns.

But what if they fail, we're just gonna deny them their right to carry because of that!? Nope, I don't see why the instructor can't either suggest they retake the course and/or provide them with additional assistance/education to pass the course. The course should be a bit less rigid than "Pass/Fail", it should be about preparing those who want to have a CCW so that when they do decide to do something stupid they can't shirk responsibility. Then when the liberals try to paint us 2nd Amendment Supporters as racist gun toting, uneducated, untrained, twats we can say, "No, just because a handful of people chose to shirk and ignore their responsibility does not mean we're all idiots and have no idea which end of the gun goes bang!"

Like I said before, unfortunately too many irresponsible idiotic twats have made the majority of the responsible gun owner crowd look like we don't know what we're doing. I think such a small "nuisance" as a training course is a small enough concession that gives us the support to say, "we are responsible, you can't judge us for a small number of twats."

Side Note-

I think that some of these Castle & Stand Your Ground laws are a bit convoluted and have to say I'd like to see a better system in place. I'll be honest, if I ever am put in a situation where I need to defend myself and/or my family; center-mass shots with a muzzle rise to the head for effect will be present and in some states that would get me in trouble. Which I think is ridiculous. I had a conversation with a gun shop owner in California before about buying non-lethal ammunition since in my area a lot of younger adults decided to cause problems; I felt that perhaps it would be better to incapacitate them for the police so that they could learn their mistake at a young age rather than just be killed. For all of California's Liberal bullshit, they'd prosecute you for leaving the assialiant alive basically. So, there's that humane option out the window.
 
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question for those people that live where they do not allow stand your ground type laws.
if someone breaks in, with the intent on hurting you, and you follow the law, and stay out of their way, leave the building, run and hide, or whatever it is you are required to do when you aren't allowed to defend yourself, and they proceed to hurt/kill/rape your family, is the state liable?

or the law makers. whoever. since they have put a law in place that ultimately allowed that to happen.
 
question for those people that live where they do not allow stand your ground type laws.
if someone breaks in, with the intent on hurting you, and you follow the law, and stay out of their way, leave the building, run and hide, or whatever it is you are required to do when you aren't allowed to defend yourself, and they proceed to hurt/kill/rape your family, is the state liable?

or the law makers. whoever. since they have put a law in place that ultimately allowed that to happen.
Section 40 of the Criminal Code of Canada:
"Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority."
key wording "as necessary". You would have to justify killing or shooting someone if they were retreating or if they were simply unarmed. I don't think the US is really any different. If it's not black and white you'll probably charged first and found innocent later... unless Castle Doctrine applies I suppose.
 
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Section 40 of the Criminal Code of Canada:
"Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority."
key wording "as necessary". You would have to justify killing or shooting someone if they were retreating or if they were simply unarmed. I don't think the US is really any different. If it's not black and white you'll probably charged first and found innocent later.
As a Canadian firearms owner I would say that this is adequate once the law is applied objectively and without bias. If politics come into play or there is a political agenda, then all bets are off. Bottomline, get the best lawyer you can afford and seek help from sources with a similar interest.
 
Section 40 of the Criminal Code of Canada:
"Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority."
key wording "as necessary". You would have to justify killing or shooting someone if they were retreating or if they were simply unarmed. I don't think the US is really any different. If it's not black and white you'll probably charged first and found innocent later... unless Castle Doctrine applies I suppose.

As a Canadian firearms owner I would say that this is adequate once the law is applied objectively and without bias. If politics come into play or there is a political agenda, then all bets are off. Bottomline, get the best lawyer you can afford and seek help from sources with a similar interest.



that sounds like a castle/stand your ground law of sorts, in which case, my question was not directed at you.

there are places where its illegal to defend yourself/home. those are the situations im curious about.
 
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