My 4runner cranks for 5-6+ seconds before starting in cold weather. Ideas?

[Threxx~]

edit: problem has been resolved. See page 3 for details on resolution. No more troubleshooting needed, but to summarized I tried replacing the battery, replacing the plugs, and trying different brands/octanes of gas. In the end it took rubbing the dealer's nose in it, refusing to back down, and having them realize the fuel pressure was dropping as the car sat. New fuel pump solved the problem.

Our 2005 4runner V6 has been doing this since it was almost brand new. It has been to the dealer twice and I always get "could not duplicate" or "that's normal". But in the past it was taking more like 2-3 seconds to start... still a second or two longer than normal for a late model vehicle, but nothing too ridiculous.

Well now that it's getting colder for 2008 the problem seems to be back and worse than ever.

It typically only happens when the car has had some time to cool down though. So if you were driving and ran in to do an errand and came right back out it would probably be fine. After an hour lunch it would probably still be fine but maybe not. After 4 hours of being parked in cold weather, it probably won't be OK.

According to my wife (who mainly drives it) it does seem to improve when she puts in something higher than 87 octane, but the 4runner doesn't require anything higher so I don't feel like I should have to do that. Not to mention if something is wrong with the car and getting worse, I can only guess it will get to the point later where 89 octane will no longer be sufficient, and then 93.

By the way, we're out of the factory warranty but we bought a 7 year 100k mile warranty from a dealer so we should still be covered I think.

I'm hesitant to bring it back to the dealer without being armed with more information this time.

 

[rook]

Our 2005 4runner V6 has been doing this since it was almost brand new. It has been to the dealer twice and I always get "could not duplicate" or "that's normal". But in the past it was taking more like 2-3 seconds to start... still a second or two longer than normal for a late model vehicle, but nothing too ridiculous.

Well now that it's getting colder for 2008 the problem seems to be back and worse than ever.

It typically only happens when the car has had some time to cool down though. So if you were driving and ran in to do an errand and came right back out it would probably be fine. After an hour lunch it would probably still be fine but maybe not. After 4 hours of being parked in cold weather, it probably won't be OK.

According to my wife (who mainly drives it) it does seem to improve when she puts in something higher than 87 octane, but the 4runner doesn't require anything higher so I don't feel like I should have to do that. Not to mention if something is wrong with the car and getting worse, I can only guess it will get to the point later where 89 octane will no longer be sufficient, and then 93.

By the way, we're out of the factory warranty but we bought a 7 year 100k mile warranty from a dealer so we should still be covered I think.

I'm hesitant to bring it back to the dealer without being armed with more information this time.

I'm thinking its taking longer than normal to generate fuel pressure. Next time you start it cold, turn the key to "on" and leave it there for 5 seconds, then crank it. See if it starts right up.

As for the dealer, drop it off at night outside so that they experience the cold start problem. Otherwise, you may need to take your digital camera and video what you are experiencing.

 

[Threxx~]

Re: Re: My 4runner cranks for 5-6+ seconds before starting in cold weather. Ideas?

you may need to take your digital camera and video what you are experiencing.

Wow that's such a simple yet great idea I can't believe I've never really thought of doing that.

I'll try leaving the fuel pump running for a few seconds before starting it next time too and see if that changes anything.

Thanks!

 

[shuly]

In cold weather it is more difficult to pull current from the battery. 7 seconds seems like a long time...when was the last time you changed your battery? Could be time for a new one...

You can safely crank your engine for about 25-30 seconds. I know on the 07's+ (not sure about the older 4th gens) you don't have to even hold the key. Just turn and let go, and it will crank on its own. I not sure about the 05's. You could mod the 4R's with a push button if you really wanted to (kind of like the Prius). Anyway the auto crank on my 07 (per the manual) goes for 25 seconds or so before it stops.

It could be the fuel pump, but at 100k, I wouldn't expect it. Check your battery with a volt meter when cranking. See what it drops to.

 

[Threxx~]

In cold weather it is more difficult to pull current from the battery. 7 seconds seems like a long time...when was the last time you changed your battery? Could be time for a new one...

You can safely crank your engine for about 25-30 seconds. I know on the 07's+ (not sure about the older 4th gens) you don't have to even hold the key. Just turn and let go, and it will crank on its own. I not sure about the 05's. You could mod the 4R's with a push button if you really wanted to (kind of like the Prius). Anyway the auto crank on my 07 (per the manual) goes for 25 seconds or so before it stops.

It could be the fuel pump, but at 100k, I wouldn't expect it. Check your battery with a volt meter when cranking. See what it drops to.

Yeah batteries do get weaker in cold weather but this has been doing this to an extent since the car was new. It's the OEM battery though... I'd hope in a stock 4 year old car the original battery would still be OK though.

The 2005 does the auto-crank thing as well which is one of the things that makes assessing this a little more difficult.

 

[tomhaney1]

Very well could be the battery. The battery went out in our 2003 Corolla in 2005. Depends on the conditions the battery is exposed to. Extreme cold or extreme heat reduces their lifespan. I have a 2005 4Runner also and I am wondering when it will kick the bucket. I would recommend buying an Optima battery and cranking it with that. They hold up better in extreme conditions and if it doesnt make a difference, well then return it. If it does, than you have a win-win situation- your problem solved and a kick-ass battery.

 

[rook]

any update?

 

[Threxx~]

My wife has taken her digital camera with her and filmed quite a few starts but so far it is behaving well. I mean the starts are still a little bit delayed but nothing too insane like 6+ seconds.

However it has been warmer here since I made this post.

She's still keeping her digital camera in the car and will get it on film once it gets colder again.

However... I have a concern. If she fills up with mid grade or premium gasoline it behaves almost completely normally. In the manual for the car I *think* it states that 91 octane is recommended (though not required). I can see the dealer, realizing that higher octane fixes the issue, giving me some BS about "well Toyota DOES recommend 91".

What can I say back? I mean...

"ok, but any other 4runner on your lot today would not act like this with 87 octane in the tank would it? So this isn't normal."

Do you think they would they accept that argument?

My wife is getting frustrated with this and seems ready to give in and just use mid grade gasoline. That would cost us another ~700 dollars over the next 100k miles of driving though which I don't wan to have to pay. Not to mention if this symptom is indicative of a problem that may get worse with age (as it is definitely worse now at 40k miles than it was when it only had 10k)... I'd hate for the problem to come to a head and something go really wrong after our 100k mile warranty is over.

 

[alaskaman]

replace the battery. just before leaving for Alaska the Toyota dealer tested my 19 month old battery and it failed. now at near zero temps in Anchorage it does take a touch longer. have them replace it and see if that helps. great suggestions here stuff I never knew.

 

[Threxx~]

I appreciate the advice on the battery but it really makes no sense to me as to why higher octane gas would fix the problem if the battery was the issue.

 

[alaskaman]

I appreciate the advice on the battery but it really makes no sense to me as to why higher octane gas would fix the problem if the battery was the issue.

well I could be incorrect but I think I read that the outside temperature was the issue. so at cold weather using premium gas the problem goes away completely?

 

[CJ3Flyr]

If anything I would think it may crank longer with premium. If the gas makes a difference then, IMHO, it has more to do with formulation and ethonal content than octane. In theory if all other things are equal the lower octane fuel would make for quicker starting.

I'd be inclined to have the battery checked out...


:cheers:

 

[Threxx~]

well I could be incorrect but I think I read that the outside temperature was the issue. so at cold weather using premium gas the problem goes away completely?

Yes, it gets worse with cold weather and low octane and better with warm weather and higher octane.

 

[alaskaman]

i see, perhaps you already did this but you might want to have them run a diagnostic from battery on.....cold cranking problems typically equal battery in my experience however that said it could be something more. since it is irritating the wife as well the really ....cheapest way IMHO is to start with a battery test and/or put a monster battery in there and see what changes if anything.

 

[shuly]

If anything I would think it may crank longer with premium. If the gas makes a difference then, IMHO, it has more to do with formulation and ethonal content than octane. In theory if all other things are equal the lower octane fuel would make for quicker starting.

I'd be inclined to have the battery checked out...


:cheers:

Starting the engine is not directly related to the octane of the fuel. It had to do with the vapor pressure. The specs of the vapor pressure are set such that it won't matter if you use 87, 89, 91 or 93. The vapor pressure specs do vary from winter/summer fuels and the elevations you typically operate at (i.e. CO fuels in Denver vs CA fuels in LA). What will happen with lower octane is the risk of preignition. If the timing of the engine is off (unlikely with vvt) and 87 is put into the chamber, it could be igniting prematurely or late and thus not wanting to turn over.

That said, I still think it is a battery issue. Have you tried turning the car over as if you were jumpstarting? Something to try. If this works normally, replace our battery.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Starting the engine is not directly related to the octane of the fuel. It had to do with the vapor pressure. The specs of the vapor pressure are set such that it won't matter if you use 87, 89, 91 or 93. The vapor pressure specs do vary from winter/summer fuels and the elevations you typically operate at (i.e. CO fuels in Denver vs CA fuels in LA). What will happen with lower octane is the risk of preignition. If the timing of the engine is off (unlikely with vvt) and 87 is put into the chamber, it could be igniting prematurely or late and thus not wanting to turn over.

Ok, I got it... As I understand it there's a difference in volatility too. Lower octane fuels seem to light easier.

As a kid, for sport, we used to take cat food cans with different grades of gas. Then, being 13 year old boys with inadequate parental supervision, we'd flick matches into the catfood cans of fuel. Regular leaded fuel would light off way easier than 100 octane airplane fuel. In fact in the winter the premium or the 100LL would put the match out.

The next genius stunt was to take soda bottle half filled with gas, set a Sterno can behind them and shoot them with a .22. Cheap, low-octane fuel was way more fun.


Ah, the good old days when there was plenty of chlorine in the gene pool

 

[alaskaman]

Way to funny. correct me if am mistaken but lower temps and jet fuel have a corresponding threshold for a reason cuz if you are flying you have to make SURE it will ignite??

 

[shuly]

Ok, I got it... As I understand it there's a difference in volatility too. Lower octane fuels seem to light easier.

As a kid, for sport, we used to take cat food cans with different grades of gas. Then, being 13 year old boys with inadequate parental supervision, we'd flick matches into the catfood cans of fuel. Regular leaded fuel would light off way easier than 100 octane airplane fuel. In fact in the winter the premium or the 100LL would put the match out.

The next genius stunt was to take soda bottle half filled with gas, set a Sterno can behind them and shoot them with a .22. Cheap, low-octane fuel was way more fun.


Ah, the good old days when there was plenty of chlorine in the gene pool

 

[shuly]

Way to funny. correct me if am mistaken but lower temps and jet fuel have a corresponding threshold for a reason cuz if you are flying you have to make SURE it will ignite??

I guess I should have kept my mouth shut hehe.

Jet fuel is more complicated than naphtha (gasoline.) Jet fuel doesn't ignite as you would commonly think of gasoline. Jet fuel is right there with diesel. You can put a lit match right into a pool of it and the match will go out. Jet fuel/Diesel (kero's) need to be under pressure to burn. Now this doesn't apply to all jet fuels. Some jet fuels are mixed with heavy naphtha (to lower the freezing point.) Naphtha does have a vapor pressure high enough though that it will ignite. It depends on which jet fuel you are referring to.

This gets way more complicated but basically there are two major concerns with jet fuel. The primary concern is at altitude the fuel can freeze, it

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Now back to the problem at hand...what about this issue of cranking a "long" time before starting. I still think it is a battery issue

My bad guys... The 100LL is 100 octane, low-lead gasoline for reciprocating engines. Evething you said about jet fuel is correct. It has work under some pretty extreme conditions.

And yes... The battery, in all likelihood, is the culprit in this starting issue