My rear seals and wheel bearings thread

[Malcolm99]

I know what the FSM shows on how to measure the distance to install the inner retainer, and mechanics following this instruction without knowing the new seal design changed the depth of the seal inside the axle tube is the main problem why tons and I mean TONS of dealership, independent shop, and machine shop mechanics f@ck this job up time and time again. You don't need to use a measuring caliper when you use the method I suggest by using the amount of polished axle showing above the retainer as a guideline for the proper placement of the retainer on the axle.

I find it comical that you're suggesting I'm not driving the seal in far enough. I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

So sorry Bro, I have a crapload of experience with this job and know what I'm doing. I've seen where the seal rides on the retainer with the new seal design and with the retainer in the original OEM location on the axle, and it's nowhere near center on the polished shoulder on the retainer. This is the reason for the flipping of the retainer because the seal doesn't first have to push past the bevel for it to get up onto the polished shoulder. You gain back the 2mm depth loss of the new seal design without having to move the retainer further inboard risking the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing.

So, you can do it whatever way you want. I know what works and I've taught thousands of people how to perform this job successfully through my videos.

No need to say sorry or bro, the proper way to measure it is using a caliper, do not measure from the polished section of the shaft because it could be different from the machining process, batches or years, and you have to eyeball where you determine polished and not polished is, its ok to be wrong sometimes, the FSM says how to measure it, and its the proper way of doing it, except the cutting off the retainer part obviously. Also not driving the seal all the way, this is an excellent way of adjusting seal lip location if needed, and its simple.

As for the flip, well its beveled for a reason, to stop the spring from popping off the back of the seal upon install(which you wouldn't notice until it leaked. You are not the only person to work on a 3rd gen, keep up the great videos though, they are excellent for people who have never worked on a 3rd gen 4R or a specific issue.

 

[mtbtim]

No need to say sorry or bro, the proper way to measure it is using a caliper, do not measure from the polished section of the shaft because it could be different from the machining process, batches or years, and you have to eyeball where you determine polished and not polished is, its ok to be wrong sometimes, the FSM says how to measure it, and its the proper way of doing it, except the cutting off the retainer part obviously. Also not driving the seal all the way, this is an excellent way of adjusting seal lip location if needed, and its simple.

As for the flip, well its beveled for a reason, to stop the spring from popping off the back of the seal upon install(which you wouldn't notice until it leaked. You are not the only person to work on a 3rd gen, keep up the great videos though, they are excellent for people who have never worked on a 3rd gen 4R or a specific issue.

The "Proper" way to do it is you have a good mating of the seal with the inner retainer and how you get there isn't important. The FSM regularly doesn't show the easiest or best way to do a repair. If the FSM was the almighty bible, why would we even need forums like this? People could just read the FSM. The polished area of the axles is very consistent. If this were not the case, I would have seen it on the 15 4runners I've done this job on or one of my viewers would have brought it to my attention which hasn't happened. My 2 videos on this repair have over 400k views, but your experience doing this job 4 times trumps all of that.

Another thing you missed from the Dr Coffee write-up and my videos is the new seal design is very pliable. You're not going to displace the retention spring of the seal. If that were the case, I wouldn't be teaching people how to do it that way. With your caliper measuring way, or my way, it doesn't really matter. As long as you get a good mating of the seal and the retainer, you've done the job right.

Thousands of people have used my videos with success for this job. I have no problems admitting I'm wrong, but in this case, I'm not wrong in my approach to this repair.

I think you're one of these guys that likes to give praise and be condescending while he's doing it. According to you, my videos are basically only valuable for people who've never worked on a 3rd Gen. My videos have helped people across the whole spectrum of experience with these rigs.

I won't bother engaging with you in future posts because I see how these discussions are going to go with you trying to show me up and it will just be another annoying exchange like this one. You should really start your own YouTube channel and show off your incredible knowledge of these vehicles. I'm sure you'll be a big success.

 

[mtbtim]

I would suggest fully seating the seal each and every time. Think how many bounces and hard pothole hits the axle takes each and every day. You don't want a seal 80% seated and the next pothole to knock it out and be churning around the tone ring then ate up and make its way into the differential. That's a bad thought. The abs ring and the retainer are made to be adjusted. Measurements are good but as always suggested the paint pen, sharpie test or the old school grease test are foolproof. I did not flip my retainer but did reuse them. If minuscule striations are left in the axle when pulling the tone ring and retainers off, and this is cause for concern, then a new axle would have been recommended as needing replaced when doing the rear wheel bearings by Toyota I would think.

I've experienced reusing the inner retainers causing a leak. The axle steel is much harder than the retainer or ABS tone ring steel. No damage occurs to the axle shaft upon removal of the parts. I've felt the inside of some of these old retainers and you can feel the grooves left in the metal. So, yes, it is a cause for concern and why I changed my suggestion of reusing both retainers for this job in order for people to save money. The ABS tone ring and outer retainer can be reused without issue.

 

[Malcolm99]

The "Proper" way to do it is you have a good mating of the seal with the inner retainer and how you get there isn't important. The FSM regularly doesn't show the easiest or best way to do a repair. If the FSM was the almighty bible, why would we even need forums like this? People could just read the FSM. The polished area of the axles is very consistent. If this were not the case, I would have seen it on the 15 4runners I've done this job on or one of my viewers would have brought it to my attention which hasn't happened. My 2 videos on this repair have over 400k views, but your experience doing this job 4 times trumps all of that.

Another thing you missed from the Dr Coffee write-up and my videos is the new seal design is very pliable. You're not going to displace the retention spring of the seal. If that were the case, I wouldn't be teaching people how to do it that way. With your caliper measuring way, or my way, it doesn't really matter. As long as you get a good mating of the seal and the retainer, you've done the job right.

Thousands of people have used my videos with success for this job. I have no problems admitting I'm wrong, but in this case, I'm not wrong in my approach to this repair.

I think you're one of these guys that likes to give praise and be condescending while he's doing it. According to you, my videos are basically only valuable for people who've never worked on a 3rd Gen. My videos have helped people across the whole spectrum of experience with these rigs.

I won't bother engaging with you in future posts because I see how these discussions are going to go with you trying to show me up and it will just be another annoying exchange like this one. You should really start your own YouTube channel and show off your incredible knowledge of these vehicles. I'm sure you'll be a big success.

Right, we don't need the FSM because we have Tim and the forum.., glad your Youtube channel has views Tim, I won't entertain explaining why measuring something that you have to eyeball isn't an ideal way to do it, and any aftermarket axle would require a proper measurement with a depth gauge as should the OEM, but since you can never be wrong in this regard because you've done it 15 times, I wish you the best, I always enjoy your snuggle on youtube.

 

[Previologist]

When I discovered the leaking seals months ago, the first thing I did was check and top off the oil, which was not very low considering how much oil was on the backing plates. I was forced to drive it anyway for a couple months, when my other car was in an accident. A couple weeks before I pulled the axles I started to hear a droning noise and discovered the diff was pretty low, so I topped it off again. The sound remained.

When I drained the oil to do the seals, there wasn't a remarkable amount of metal shavings on the drain plug. Nothing big, just a very fine paste. It looked pretty normal to me, but what do I know. It had probably been 80,000 miles since I last changed it. Filled it up with 75-90w.

But I still have a droning-humming sound and my anxiety is growing. It can't be the bearings. Its not very loud, but its there and it sounds like it is coming from the rear. It could be other things. My tires aren't in great shape, for one. How can I rule out the diff?

 

[Previologist]

Took it out for a couple hours tonight, highway and city driving. I was able to gather a little more info. Whatever it is I'm not terribly worried about it. Its one of those things that once you notice it its hard not to pay attention, but if you don't think about it you don't notice it much. I am not 100% sure it is coming from the rear.

The main thing I noticed is that it starts at about the same RPMs in every gear, always around 2000 and continues when you increase rpms. This leads me to suspect its not the differential. I'm just gonna keep driving and listening for clues.

 

[SaulG]

You best ask the almighty Tim the Tool...he's done a whole fifteen!

 

[Previologist]

I'd rather get back on topic. Although I guess I am off topic too, since this sound predates me pulling the axles so I'm certain it has nothing to do with wheel bearings or axle seals. The fact that its rpm-linked makes me think it is coming from elsewhere too

 

[GhostRing]

Try rotating you tires to see if the sound changes?
U joints or their associated angle?
I'm in the process of changing my front wheel bearings so there's that too...?

 

[T4R2014]

Wouldn't be surprised if its tires. It's pretty crazy how tires degrade in 5 years even with low mileage. Considering it's winter, I think you should get some newer tires. Old rubber isn't as pliable in the cold. If that doesn't change the drone, try going to 85w-140 and see if it changes the noise. I bought mine with a diff that ran low. The first thing to go was the pinion bearing. Thicker oil reduced the whine by a tiny amount.

 

[Previologist]

Try rotating you tires to see if the sound changes?

There's no rubber left to rotate. :cowboy: But you were on the right track.

Wouldn't be surprised if its tires. .

I decided to take it out on a 250 mile drive today, the first serious test of all the work I've done this year-clutch, timing belt, wheel bearings. I already was planning to buy new tires but this sound had me hesitant-didn't want to drop another 600 bucks on it if something bad is about to happen.

Thought I better check the tire pressure before I went because I hadn't done that in a while, and the pressure gauge found my noise problem-all 4 of them.

The 250 miles went great and quiet, all systems are go for new tires except my bank account.

 

[mtbtim]

You best ask the almighty Tim the Tool...he's done a whole fifteen!

Thanks for being a fan. I could easily get into a contest of shit-talking with you, but I've finally learned engaging in that is a total waste of time.

The point of me telling the other guy in this thread how many times I've done the job was to reiterate I have plenty of experience with this repair and know what I'm taking about. The guy was trying to school me on a repair i know very intimately and I've helped thousands of people perform the job themselves through my videos. If what I was teaching people was wrong, I would have seen it in all the times I've done the job and I would have heard from people using my videos that my techniques and information was flawed. My problem with that guy was he was pointing out there's only one correct way to do the job, and that was by following the FSM word for word.

Happy Trolling!

 

[SaulG]

Thanks for being a fan. I could easily get into a contest of shit-talking with you, but I'm a total waste of time.

The point of me telling the other guy in this thread how many times I've done the job was to reiterate I have plenty of experience with this repair and know what I'm taking about. The guy was trying to school me on a repair i know very intimately.

Yes you are..

 

[Sparky 97Runner]

Yes you are..

No he's not and everyone can see that you altered his original quote. Most of us greatly value his videos and hope he keeps them coming. Just FYI.

 

[Previologist]

Yes you are..

I resent my thread being turned into a pissing match. Give it a rest. Although I ended up doing it slightly different, I never would have attempted this repair without Tim's videos.

 

[SaulG]

No he's not and everyone can see that you altered his original quote. Most of us greatly value his videos and hope he keeps them coming. Just FYI.

Having never needed a Timmy video I am unaware of the fascination. There are quite a few videos produced I've heard he's ripped off.. so, with an FSM available and 40+ years of Lexus/Toyota experience....never a fan of his B.S.

Good Luck to those that are.

 

[Sparky 97Runner]

Having never needed a Timmy video I am unaware of the fascination. There are quite a few videos produced I've heard he's ripped off.. so, with an FSM available and 40+ years of Lexus/Toyota experience....never a fan of his B.S.

Good Luck to those that are.

So...why are you wasting your time trolling around in a forum like this then Saul? I'll make a suggestion. You could always log into Facebook and get it all out of your system when you feel the need. Then you could log in here and contribute something positive with your 40+ years of experience. That would be most appreciated by people with far less experience who are coming here asking for help.