Need a commuter car - Prius?

[atv223]

Currently own a 5th Gen that the wife drives since her commute is 3 miles each way and she is carting the kids around. I, unfortunately, drive about 110 miles round trip to work every day. My commuter, a 2003 Acura TLS isn't long for this world with 120,000 miles on it.

I need to replace the Acura and am thinking about a 2012 or 2013 Prius. I realize a Prius is an exciting car to drive, but they seem really reliable and I'll same over $2,000 a year in fuel costs over the Acura.

Anyone have any experience with the Prius, especially on long daily commutes?

Open to other ideas as well.

 

[GMZ]

Do some math re: costs to operate and the timeline to break even on the hybrid premium to see if its really worth it. For a hwy commute a TDI would probably get better mileage than any hybrid and be a blast to drive.

Why not just drive the Acura until it croaks? It would be hard to beat, price wise, a Corolla or Civic that gets 40 mpg on the highway and can be had for around $15k while a Prius, even a C, will realistically be at or over $20k.

 

[Atlanta_man]

My son has had a Prius for a couple years. He commutes to work Seattle - Redmond.
Loaned him my 4Runner last year when he visited. His reaction: 'wow, what huge torque the 4Runner has'.

Prius is just too tiny for me. And the overall car's lifecycle energy/pollution balance really does not justify the smug greenie attitude.

 

[RandyDaytona]

My wife commutes in her 2005 Passat TDI and gets well over 40 MPG. She actually refuses to part with it for that reason, alone, which is highly annoying to me. She drives the 4R when it snows or is too cold for the TDI, so she essentially has two cars to choose from... And here I sit, shopping for a used Landcruiser for my weekend ride because I find the Passat to be a tad small for me and because whenever I want to use the 4R, she has it :redbrick:

 

[Thai]

Do some math re: costs to operate and the timeline to break even on the hybrid premium to see if its really worth it. For a hwy commute a TDI would probably get better mileage than any hybrid and be a blast to drive.

You can do all the math that you want...a TDI will lose badly. Reliability sucks. That's the plain truth. Sure, the motor MAY be OK, but the rest of the VW/Audi will require lots of TLC and $$$$. In addition, most modern TDI requires additive which will add up financially over the life of the vehicle. And in terms of fuel savings, there isn't a comparo by any reliable source that states fuel savings of the TDI over hybrid (by Toyota)...city OR highway. Go look it up. Not even close, esp. when comparing with Prius. On the highway, my Prius will beat any modern TDI. And in the city, it ain't even a ball game.

Remember, the savings for a Prius goes beyond gas. There is no starter. Brakes are seldomly replaced before 100k miles, if at all. Oil changes are that of a small 1.8L engine. In other words, at least for Prius, the ONLY things that you do for most of the life of a Prius are: oil changes, tire rotations, windshield wiper change. That's it. No fuel additives (like diesel). Click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858339-post100.html

My son has had a Prius for a couple years. He commutes to work Seattle - Redmond.
Loaned him my 4Runner last year when he visited. His reaction: 'wow, what huge torque the 4Runner has'.

Prius is just too tiny for me. And the overall car's lifecycle energy/pollution balance really does not justify the smug greenie attitude.

Yeah, well a 4.7 L V8 should have a lot more torque than a Prius!! :nono: It looks like your son needs to learn about displacement and cylinder counts!

As for Prius being small, you may want to check the newer ones out. It may surprise you. It is classified as a small midsize car. Rear legroom may be very competitive with your 4runner!

Although i bought my Prius for safety AND fuel efficient, i don't mind the green aspects of it. Unfortunately, Atlanta_man and some others simply are badly mis-informed about hybrids. Being smug may go both ways too. :nono:

As for cradle to grave, click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858343-post101.html

 

[RandyDaytona]

You can do all the math that you want...a TDI will lose badly. Reliability sucks. That's the plain truth. Sure, the motor MAY be OK, but the rest of the VW/Audi will require lots of TLC and $$$$. In addition, most modern TDI requires additive which will add up financially over the life of the vehicle. And in terms of fuel savings, there isn't a comparo by any reliable source that states fuel savings of the TDI over hybrid (by Toyota)...city OR highway. Go look it up. Not even close, esp. when comparing with Prius. On the highway, my Prius will beat any modern TDI. And in the city, it ain't even a ball game.

We've run Passat for 7 years and 120,000 miles with no problems. We also don't use any "additives." This is actually the first mention I've heard of being required to do so. It even ran fine when we switched briefly to biodiesel when we lived in Seattle (too hard to find here so we're back to regular diesel).

Only problem with the car has been a busted skid plate when my wife ran over "stick" (which was probably more like a "log.")

I've heard all the horror stories about VW unreliability but have experienced nothing of the sort.

I have no doubt that a Prius will get better gas mileage. But I doubt it will have the pickup that the turbo diesel has (the Passat does have a little bit of zip to it, while the Prius I drove has none whatsoever).

The biggest drawback with the TDI is living in a cold climate, IMO. That and the oil changes are tad more expensive (around $50 as opposed to the $29.95 you can get at any Jiffy Lube).

But given the issues with the Prius battery and recycling - whether they're true or not, there's enough controversy to the issue that it's probably not without at least some problems - I feel better from an environmental standpoint to have the Passat. Personal preference.

Like with any vehicle, there are people who have nothing but problems and people who have none whatsoever.

 

[atv223]

I have been on the "drive the Acura until it croaks" plan for a while, but it seems like the end is near and I would rather get out while there is some residual value left. Plus, the tires on that thing are stupid expensive, last set lasted me all of 35,000 and cost $900 to replace.

I am sure the TDI would be a LOT more fun to drive than a Prius, but honestly, I have never heard a long term owner of a VW say anything good about reliability and repair costs seem high.

What I am looking for in a commuter is:

First and foremost value. This car will get about 22,000 miles a year on just in commuting and I don't want to spend a lot of money running it or maintaining it, since it will get "consumed" in about 5 or 6 years. Low cost tires fit in with this. I don't want the initial investment to be too high, so really I am looking at total cost of ownership to be low given my commuting situation.

Second, I need a minimum level of comfort and conveniences. Since I am in the car 2 hours a day, I need a comfortable seat and conveniences like Bluetooth. So I am willing to pay more than a bare bones base model, but don't need to top end (starts to eat into the total cost of ownership too much).

Third, I want super reliability. I just want to get in and drive it with the only thing it needs is the scheduled maintenance. I have an old Jeep Grand Cherokee that goes through brakes faster than tires.

I am open to anything that meets those criteria.

100,000 miles for the first set of brakes on a Prius, sounds nice!

 

[c_mack9]

i sell toyotas and i can tell you one thing is a fact, people that buy a prius come back and buy prius again and again. they love em and dont want anything else. i agree with everything thai said above. they are sized in between a camry and corolla, the new 1.8L hybrid system has plenty of get up and go, even the base model that starts out at less than 25k comes standard with power windows, locks, mirrors, smart key system, and bluetooth for phone and audio, and 2 year/25,000 miles of free scheduled maintenance and 24/7 roadside assistance. i'm glad you're smart enough to consider overall cost of the vehicle over the life of ownership but dont forget resale value is higher on prius than almost any other car sold. i think it's a perfect option for your specific needs.

 

[Thai]

I've heard all the horror stories about VW unreliability but have experienced nothing of the sort.

But given the issues with the Prius battery and recycling - whether they're true or not, there's enough controversy to the issue that it's probably not without at least some problems - I feel better from an environmental standpoint to have the Passat. Personal preference.

Link: Car Reliability Ratings - 2012 Vehicle Dependability Study | J.D. Power

You can check out individual manufacturers in the link.

Life cycle? Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnNEVdtzi4

There is NO controversy...just badly informed people trying to sound intelligent. :smashputer: READ my link above.
The battery will likely outlast the owner!

Link: The 200,000-mile question: How does the Toyota Prius hold up?

"....Based on data from over 36,000 Toyota Prius hybrids in our annual survey, we find that the Prius has outstanding reliability and low ownership costs. But we wanted to know if the effectiveness of the battery degraded over the long run. So we hooked up a 2002 Toyota Prius with nearly 208,000 miles on the clock to our testing instruments and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius we tested 10 years ago.

Conclusion: We found very little difference in performance when we tested fuel economy and acceleration.

Our testers were also amazed how much the car drove like the new one we tested 10 years ago. It certainly didn’t seem like a car that had traveled nearly the distance to the Moon. We were also surprised to learn that the engine, transmission, and even shocks were all original.

If the battery ever did need to be replaced, it would run between $2,200 and $2,600 from a Toyota dealer, but it’s doubtful that anyone would purchase a new battery for such an old car. Most will probably choose to buy a low-mileage unit from a salvage yard, just as they would with an engine or transmission. We found many units available for around $500.

So is an old Prius a still a good value? We think so."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, after 10 years and 208,000 miles, the original battery is still in near perfect condition. This is why there are plenty of stories of cabbies running well over 300k miles on the original battery and still going!

Durability AND reliability...and efficiency.

BTW, the current hybrid battery is much more advance than that battery tested above...and reliability has been even better!!

 

[rebelbowtie]

You can do all the math that you want...a TDI will lose badly. Reliability sucks. That's the plain truth. Sure, the motor MAY be OK, but the rest of the VW/Audi will require lots of TLC and $$$$. In addition, most modern TDI requires additive which will add up financially over the life of the vehicle. And in terms of fuel savings, there isn't a comparo by any reliable source that states fuel savings of the TDI over hybrid (by Toyota)...city OR highway. Go look it up. Not even close, esp. when comparing with Prius. On the highway, my Prius will beat any modern TDI. And in the city, it ain't even a ball game.

Remember, the savings for a Prius goes beyond gas. There is no starter. Brakes are seldomly replaced before 100k miles, if at all. Oil changes are that of a small 1.8L engine. In other words, at least for Prius, the ONLY things that you do for most of the life of a Prius are: oil changes, tire rotations, windshield wiper change. That's it. No fuel additives (like diesel). Click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858339-post100.html



Yeah, well a 4.7 L V8 should have a lot more torque than a Prius!! :nono: It looks like your son needs to learn about displacement and cylinder counts!

As for Prius being small, you may want to check the newer ones out. It may surprise you. It is classified as a small midsize car. Rear legroom may be very competitive with your 4runner!

Although i bought my Prius for safety AND fuel efficient, i don't mind the green aspects of it. Unfortunately, Atlanta_man and some others simply are badly mis-informed about hybrids. Being smug may go both ways too. :nono:

As for cradle to grave, click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858343-post101.html

VAGcars are hit or miss, 100,000 miles on my A4 before I sold it and the only thing I replaced was the PCV and it was covered under warranty. You do lose yourself pretty hard on resale value because of their bad rep. I also managed to get upper 30's on the highway and that's an AWD car...

 

[Thai]

First and foremost value.

Second, I need a minimum level of comfort and conveniences. Since I am in the car 2 hours a day, I need a comfortable seat and conveniences like Bluetooth. So I am willing to pay more than a bare bones base model, but don't need to top end (starts to eat into the total cost of ownership too much).

100,000 miles for the first set of brakes on a Prius, sounds nice!

Yeah, value is top notch with Prius...e.g. resale value!

Now, the comfort issue is important. The Prius is semi-econobox...so, it is somewhat noisy on the highway (road noise). Interior is kinda cheap and hollow. Rattles can happen with age.

IMO, if i had to do it again, then i would get the new Camry Hybrid because it gets 40 mpg (vs. 50) but is infinitely more refined! Same great hybrid technology. 40 vs. 50 ain't that much in the grand scheme of things...or at least, that is what i am trying to convince myself.

 

[Thai]

VAGcars are hit or miss, 100,000 miles on my A4 before I sold it and the only thing I replaced was the PCV and it was covered under warranty. You do lose yourself pretty hard on resale value because of their bad rep. I also managed to get upper 30's on the highway and that's an AWD car...

I am sure that there are happy VW/Audi owners. But, playing by the odds, you have more chance of getting a lemon with VW than Toyota. You have more chance of getting steep repair bills with VW over Toyota. Bad resale value or the high cost of ext. warranty is always a telling sign....

 

[atv223]

Yeah, value is top notch with Prius...e.g. resale value!

Now, the comfort issue is important. The Prius is semi-econobox...so, it is somewhat noisy on the highway (road noise). Interior is kinda cheap and hollow. Rattles can happen with age.

IMO, if i had to do it again, then i would get the new Camry Hybrid because it gets 40 mpg (vs. 50) but is infinitely more refined! Same great hybrid technology. 40 vs. 50 ain't that much in the grand scheme of things...or at least, that is what i am trying to convince myself.

You are killing me! I just read all 12 pages of your thread on your Prius which convinced me it was the way to go. Now I come back to this tread and you throw the hybrid Camery into the mix! Back to the spread sheets!

We had a 1993 Camery we put 247,000 miles on. It was a good car overall, but we had quite a few problems with it, more than I would have expected with a Toyota.

I just figured a Prius would be a better hybrid since it was designed from the ground up as one as opposed to the Camery.

 

[c_mack9]

here's another curveball, hte new avalon hybrid will be out in less than a month! 39 city/40 hwy on the mpg, it uses the same 2.5L hybrid system the camry hybrid uses, and you want to talk about a helluva car, go drive an avalon. they are world class all things considered. i spoke with an old guy that owned one he was just about to roll over 500,000 miles! a half a million miles! there will be 3 trim levels on the avalon hybrid, the loaded out limited will be under 43 grand, i cant remember the other 2 prices.

 

[JohnsD90]

I'd get a 2012 Jetta or Golf TDI 6 speed manual if i was you. Should be getting around 45mpg, and more if it's all highway. 1st and foremost you don't look like someone who has been casteurated when you drive a TDI vs a prius. 2nd off the TDI has more power. 3rd it is a manual and that is infinitely better. And 4th as long as its highway miles the TDI should match or beat the prius fuel economy.

295k on the 99.5 Jetta TDI in the garage, 22k on the 2011 Jetta TDI in the driveway.

 

[JohnsD90]

You can do all the math that you want...a TDI will lose badly. Reliability sucks. That's the plain truth. Sure, the motor MAY be OK, but the rest of the VW/Audi will require lots of TLC and $$$$. In addition, most modern TDI requires additive which will add up financially over the life of the vehicle. And in terms of fuel savings, there isn't a comparo by any reliable source that states fuel savings of the TDI over hybrid (by Toyota)...city OR highway. Go look it up. Not even close, esp. when comparing with Prius. On the highway, my Prius will beat any modern TDI. And in the city, it ain't even a ball game.

Remember, the savings for a Prius goes beyond gas. There is no starter. Brakes are seldomly replaced before 100k miles, if at all. Oil changes are that of a small 1.8L engine. In other words, at least for Prius, the ONLY things that you do for most of the life of a Prius are: oil changes, tire rotations, windshield wiper change. That's it. No fuel additives (like diesel). Click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858339-post100.html



Yeah, well a 4.7 L V8 should have a lot more torque than a Prius!! :nono: It looks like your son needs to learn about displacement and cylinder counts!

As for Prius being small, you may want to check the newer ones out. It may surprise you. It is classified as a small midsize car. Rear legroom may be very competitive with your 4runner!

Although i bought my Prius for safety AND fuel efficient, i don't mind the green aspects of it. Unfortunately, Atlanta_man and some others simply are badly mis-informed about hybrids. Being smug may go both ways too. :nono:

As for cradle to grave, click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858343-post101.html

The Jetta and Golf do not use injections as of 2012 model year.

It won't beat any modern tdi, its all driving style, while i do not agree with the methods used they did achive 67mpg in this modern TDI:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...fuel-economy-record-in-volkswagen-passat-tdi/

Also, Oil changes in the TDI's can be stretched to 50,000 miles as long as you change the oil filter at regular intervals, when using Chevron's new 5w-40, it was designed for trucks, but that is the oil weight used in the TDI's.

 

[Thai]

You are killing me! I just read all 12 pages of your thread on your Prius which convinced me it was the way to go. Now I come back to this tread and you throw the hybrid Camery into the mix! Back to the spread sheets!

Don't get me wrong, it's a great car. But, if you care about road noise, then i would get Camry Hybrid. If it is not important to you, then get Prius. Prius does have less compromise than Camry Hybrid in terms of cargo space.

here's another curveball, hte new avalon hybrid will be out in less than a month! 39 city/40 hwy on the mpg, it uses the same 2.5L hybrid system the camry hybrid uses, and you want to talk about a helluva car, go drive an avalon. they are world class all things considered. i spoke with an old guy that owned one he was just about to roll over 500,000 miles! a half a million miles! there will be 3 trim levels on the avalon hybrid, the loaded out limited will be under 43 grand, i cant remember the other 2 prices.

I second that. If you need space (and more cargo space) and have the cash, then get the Avalon Hybrid...but it will cost a good $10k more or so than Camry Hybrid. And since it is a 1st year model, you may have to deal with some 1st year problems (rattles, mis-alignment, etc.).

 

[Thai]

I'd get a 2012 Jetta or Golf TDI 6 speed manual if i was you. Should be getting around 45mpg, and more if it's all highway. 1st and foremost you don't look like someone who has been casteurated when you drive a TDI vs a prius. 2nd off the TDI has more power. 3rd it is a manual and that is infinitely better. And 4th as long as its highway miles the TDI should match or beat the prius fuel economy.

295k on the 99.5 Jetta TDI in the garage, 22k on the 2011 Jetta TDI in the driveway.

Really, John?! Do we really have to get back to this AGAIN? What is "casteurated"?? Maybe owning a TDI requires brain damage as a pre-requisite? (Hint: grow a pair John and man up...there are bigger things to worry about than the image that you get from driving a car! Geez!)

Any survey will tell you the piss poor quality of a VW. There is no denying this.

These are true comparisons from big names in the auto industry:

Edmunds: Fuel Sipper Smackdown 2 - Edmunds.com

"The big news is that the 2010 Toyota Prius (base price $22,000) secures a straight sweep by achieving essentially the same fuel economy (47-48 mpg) regardless of driving environment. Conventional wisdom used to be that the Prius was good for city dwellers and that frequent road trippers should look elsewhere. These results would prove otherwise, and the new Prius proved to be a better long-distance car than before, with a bit more power and a more comfortable cabin."

Road & Track: 2010 Prius vs. TDI vs. gasser: Hybrid: Reality - Article - Road and Track

Page 3 and on show some hard data about MPGs on different routes. The data pretty much confirms what Edmunds found above...Prius is a leader in MPGs on ALL roads, usually by a wide margin over the next competitor.

John, feel free to post any valid comparison b/w the two showing that TDI gets better highway mileage.

Proof of longevity...taxi cabs: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/781759-post64.html

Has any TDI have such demand like this before: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/781759-post64.html

And if any TDI is so good on the highway, then can it match this: (note the average speed of 84 mph for over 11 miles and getting over 37 mpg)

 

[Thai]

The Jetta and Golf do not use injections as of 2012 model year.

It won't beat any modern tdi, its all driving style, while i do not agree with the methods used they did achive 67mpg in this modern TDI:

Hypermiling Taylors Set Fuel-Economy Record in Volkswagen Passat TDI - NYTimes.com

Also, Oil changes in the TDI's can be stretched to 50,000 miles as long as you change the oil filter at regular intervals, when using Chevron's new 5w-40, it was designed for trucks, but that is the oil weight used in the TDI's.

It will John...Jetta just got by this year because of its size i believe. Passat with the SAME TDI as Jetta but needs AdBlue.

As for cost of the additive: Consumer Reports Digs Up True Cost of Mercedes' Diesel - KickingTires

Ouch!!

John, i can change my style to get 99.999999 mpg...but that's not the point, is it?! Real world driving by average consumers is what matters. So, does VW recommend 50k mile oil changes? If not, then your point is worthless.

 

[Thai]

Not that i am big into carbon footprint, but this is an interesting discussion: Hybrid Watchdog: Hybrid vs. "Clean Diesel"

You buy a diesel car over a hybrid for its strong torque and sportier handling...but never buy it to help the environment nor to save gas over a hybrid. The sportier handling thing is being rapidly change because there are now more and more hybrid sports car (e.g. Infiniti M35h, upcoming Lexus GS450h, Tesla, etc.).