New Benchmark in Luxury!
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Thai
Elite Member
And here is Edmunds Full Test:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486
Vehicle Tested:
2008 Lexus LS 600h Hybrid 4dr Sedan
MSRP of Test Vehicle: $111,715
What Works:
Beautiful and comfortable interior; amazingly quiet; elegant composure.
What Needs Work:
Heavy and feels it; not as fuel-efficient as you expect a hybrid to be; dinky trunk; not quick enough to be competition for a V12.
Bottom Line:
An interesting technological exercise.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486
Vehicle Tested:
2008 Lexus LS 600h Hybrid 4dr Sedan
MSRP of Test Vehicle: $111,715
What Works:
Beautiful and comfortable interior; amazingly quiet; elegant composure.
What Needs Work:
Heavy and feels it; not as fuel-efficient as you expect a hybrid to be; dinky trunk; not quick enough to be competition for a V12.
Bottom Line:
An interesting technological exercise.
Thai
Elite Member
I am really confused by the LS600h...it's really slow!
Here is Edmunds' quote: "Our best acceleration times in the preproduction test car came with the system set on "Power" and the transmission in Sport mode. The 0-to-60-mph sprint took 6.0 seconds and the quarter-mile went by in 14.3 seconds at 101 mph. For a big, heavy sedan, that's not bad, but the conventional LS 460 L is just as quick. It hits 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and rips through the quarter-mile in the same 14.3 seconds.
This isn't much of a surprise, since the LS 600h L and LS 460 L have similar power-to-weight ratios. Each of the hybrid's 438 ponies must lug 11.9 pounds, while each of the LS 460 L's carries 11.4, and the cheaper car doesn't have to overcome the parasitic drag inherent in an all-wheel-drive system."
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Granted, it is nice to have all-wheel drive, but it is actually SLOWER than LS460! Isn't this thing supposed to be as quick as MB and BMW V12 monsters??!!
I do like Lexus interior...and that stereo...or should i say, reference sound system!
IMHO, i would not buy the LS600h...i would rather get the Lexus GS450h, which has credible performance (0-60 5.2 or so) and excellent fuel economy (similar to your IS350). Or, if single or no kids, then IS350. If i want to spend THAT much money (> $100K), then i would get a Mercedes S or BMW 7-series...better performance overall and (superficial as can be which is the case for anyone buying a car over $100k) more status.
Koz, i know that you're a BIG fan of Toyota...but gotta disagree with you...again.
I am not sure if the LS600h is "the benchmark" of luxury...it is the benchmark of hybrid technology i agree. It really doesn't offer anything special beyond the under-performing hybrid technology. It would have been more special if Lexus made a powerful V12 with all the techno's seen on the IS350's engine (thus, making amazing power)...that would make the Germans run for the hills! But this LS600h won't make much impact (MY prediction) on anything...thus, Lexus is only making 2000 of them. The IS350 and possibly, LS460 made much more of an impact on the Germans than does this super hybrid car.
Here is Edmunds' quote: "Our best acceleration times in the preproduction test car came with the system set on "Power" and the transmission in Sport mode. The 0-to-60-mph sprint took 6.0 seconds and the quarter-mile went by in 14.3 seconds at 101 mph. For a big, heavy sedan, that's not bad, but the conventional LS 460 L is just as quick. It hits 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and rips through the quarter-mile in the same 14.3 seconds.
This isn't much of a surprise, since the LS 600h L and LS 460 L have similar power-to-weight ratios. Each of the hybrid's 438 ponies must lug 11.9 pounds, while each of the LS 460 L's carries 11.4, and the cheaper car doesn't have to overcome the parasitic drag inherent in an all-wheel-drive system."
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Granted, it is nice to have all-wheel drive, but it is actually SLOWER than LS460! Isn't this thing supposed to be as quick as MB and BMW V12 monsters??!!
I do like Lexus interior...and that stereo...or should i say, reference sound system!IMHO, i would not buy the LS600h...i would rather get the Lexus GS450h, which has credible performance (0-60 5.2 or so) and excellent fuel economy (similar to your IS350). Or, if single or no kids, then IS350. If i want to spend THAT much money (> $100K), then i would get a Mercedes S or BMW 7-series...better performance overall and (superficial as can be which is the case for anyone buying a car over $100k) more status.
Koz, i know that you're a BIG fan of Toyota...but gotta disagree with you...again.
I am not sure if the LS600h is "the benchmark" of luxury...it is the benchmark of hybrid technology i agree. It really doesn't offer anything special beyond the under-performing hybrid technology. It would have been more special if Lexus made a powerful V12 with all the techno's seen on the IS350's engine (thus, making amazing power)...that would make the Germans run for the hills! But this LS600h won't make much impact (MY prediction) on anything...thus, Lexus is only making 2000 of them. The IS350 and possibly, LS460 made much more of an impact on the Germans than does this super hybrid car.
Thai
Elite Member
Ok Koz...why is it that you always assume that i cannot accept Toyota/Lexus peerless perfection?? You're right...i accept it in certain of it's vehicles (4runner, Prius, Camry, Sienna), but not in all.......because i am not as blind as you. Try and be impartial, Koz...for once!
Ok, wonderful...the LS600h is a technological car. No argument. However, most of it's major innovation can be had in the LS460.
As for all-wheeldrive, it's good to have, but Lexus/Toyota has NOT been a major player in the all-season AWD car category. Their previous attempts at AWD have been, well, lackluster at best. The AWD systems in the Highlander/RX330, RAV4, GS350 AWD, etc. are all lagging behind most competitors in all-season performance. We will see how this new "breakthru" AWD system in the LS600 works over the next few seasons.
And with how good VDIM is (according to Lexus), it makes the LS460 even more compelling over LS600h because VDIM is apparently MORE effective in all-season weather than GS350's AWD system! When GS430 VDIM was introduced, it outperformed/outhandled the GS350 AWD (without VDIM) around a wet track! Hopefully, the LS600h's system is better than GS350's.
Therefore, with my money, i would rather spend it on LS460L because i get equal performance, nearly equal luxury, and with equal fuel economy for A LOT less money.
THIS IS MY POINT, koz.
And IF i were to spend $100K on a car, then i want to get BETTER PERFORMANCE than it's cheaper sibling!! Luxury can only go so far...if i spend THAT much on a car, i want BOTH, not one or the other.
The rest of the "safety" technology is IMHO not very useful...it's kinda over-the-top technology...see Volvo's dumb "innovations." Oh my goodness, these manufacturers have ran out of useful ideas to make the world safer!
LED headlamps...hmmm, this reminds me of "the world's most powerful HID" headlamps from Infiniti (aka Q45). LED technology...wow, more money for a tiny bit more performance, and extremely high repair bills...just what a rich guy wants!
All of this technology and yet it can't handle better nor perform better than MB S550 or BMW 750. And let's not even talk about their V12 counterparts....
I would rather give up the ridiculous over-the-top luxury items for some driving excitement anyday of the week! Again, we're talking about 100g's here. You do too, right?? This is why you pick IS350 over GS350, right??
Ok, wonderful...the LS600h is a technological car. No argument. However, most of it's major innovation can be had in the LS460.
As for all-wheeldrive, it's good to have, but Lexus/Toyota has NOT been a major player in the all-season AWD car category. Their previous attempts at AWD have been, well, lackluster at best. The AWD systems in the Highlander/RX330, RAV4, GS350 AWD, etc. are all lagging behind most competitors in all-season performance. We will see how this new "breakthru" AWD system in the LS600 works over the next few seasons.
And with how good VDIM is (according to Lexus), it makes the LS460 even more compelling over LS600h because VDIM is apparently MORE effective in all-season weather than GS350's AWD system! When GS430 VDIM was introduced, it outperformed/outhandled the GS350 AWD (without VDIM) around a wet track! Hopefully, the LS600h's system is better than GS350's.
Therefore, with my money, i would rather spend it on LS460L because i get equal performance, nearly equal luxury, and with equal fuel economy for A LOT less money.
THIS IS MY POINT, koz.
And IF i were to spend $100K on a car, then i want to get BETTER PERFORMANCE than it's cheaper sibling!! Luxury can only go so far...if i spend THAT much on a car, i want BOTH, not one or the other.
The rest of the "safety" technology is IMHO not very useful...it's kinda over-the-top technology...see Volvo's dumb "innovations." Oh my goodness, these manufacturers have ran out of useful ideas to make the world safer!
LED headlamps...hmmm, this reminds me of "the world's most powerful HID" headlamps from Infiniti (aka Q45). LED technology...wow, more money for a tiny bit more performance, and extremely high repair bills...just what a rich guy wants!
All of this technology and yet it can't handle better nor perform better than MB S550 or BMW 750. And let's not even talk about their V12 counterparts....
I would rather give up the ridiculous over-the-top luxury items for some driving excitement anyday of the week! Again, we're talking about 100g's here. You do too, right?? This is why you pick IS350 over GS350, right??
Koz
New member
I have driven the S600 and the 750 and can tell you I was not impressed, especially considering how much they cost. Have you actually driven or sat in these cars? If you have, can you honestly say that the MB and BMW are more luxurious? The problem is, most people that are buy these cars buy them as a status symbol. They have a problem being seen in a Japanese car. The status symbol is their number 1 buying factor. It's just like the IS and the 3 series. The 3 series was getting its ass kicked until they turboed it, yet the blind sheep, like you, swore it had better performance. I'm sure you still think the non-335 3 Series is more luxurious and performs better. Talk about being blind. You can't even admit the Tundra is a better pick-up without mentioning the 1 questionable aspect (The frame), that has not even been a problem.
Repeat after me! :whipping2 "Toyota makes the best vehicles in the world". See that wasn't so hard! :clap:
Koz
Repeat after me! :whipping2 "Toyota makes the best vehicles in the world". See that wasn't so hard! :clap:
Koz
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Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Hmm, i noticed that you did not challenge any of my points above...cat got your tongue??
Koz, once again, you fail to see my point. Did i ever say that the Lexus is LESS luxurious than BMW and MB?? Nope. Again, if i were to spend $100K on a car, then i want BOTH PERFORMANCE AND LUXURY. I am not sure if i can make this any clearer!
I bet you that i have spent more time in BMW 7-series and MB S550 than you!!
Come on, Koz, you're kidding me when you said the above, right?!Oh no, Koz, i never said that the 330i was faster than IS350...i just said that it HANDLES better! And, unlike you, i do know a little about 1/4 mile times and what it means. I don't want to remind you again of your misunderstandings on this topic.
When did i say that the BMW 3-series is more luxurious than IS350??? SHOW ME...or else, don't make things up, Koz! That is a cheap way of arguing!
As for the Tundra, what can i say?? IMHO, the frame on a truck is by far the most important aspect of a truck! Do you feel differently about this?? Tell me.
Koz
New member
Thai said:I bet you that i have spent more time in BMW 7-series and MB S550 than you!!
Oh no, Koz, i never said that the 330i was faster than IS350...i just said that it HANDLES better! And, unlike you, i do know a little about 1/4 mile times and what it means. I don't want to remind you again of your misunderstandings on this topic.
You more then likely spent more time in a 7-series and S-MB then I have but I doubt you have spent more time drag racing (On the street or the track, in a car, truck or on a motorcycle!). I did spend enough time driving a S600 bi-turbo and a 750Li to know that none of these cars are worth their price. I honestly do feel that the LS600 is more luxurious then either.
Maybe you do need to remind me about how I don't know anything about drag racing.
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Yet, you did not understand relationship between 1/4 mile and HP ratings. Isn't that strange, oh pro drag racer that you are?!
Ok...lets get back on topic. I certainly would not buy a S600 or BMW 750...too much money and simply overkill. I would rather get a Porsche Cayman S or something along that line. Hell, i even like the Miata these days. Like i said above, for my money, i would definitely get LS460L over LS600L anyday because there is not enough to justify it's bloated price. And IF i were to spend that much, then i would get MB or BMW because you get almost as much luxury, but a lot more performance. Therefore, BMW and MB still are the benchmark in this price range for this type of vehicle.
Ok...lets get back on topic. I certainly would not buy a S600 or BMW 750...too much money and simply overkill. I would rather get a Porsche Cayman S or something along that line. Hell, i even like the Miata these days.
Like i said above, for my money, i would definitely get LS460L over LS600L anyday because there is not enough to justify it's bloated price. And IF i were to spend that much, then i would get MB or BMW because you get almost as much luxury, but a lot more performance. Therefore, BMW and MB still are the benchmark in this price range for this type of vehicle.
Koz
New member
Thai said:Yet, you did not understand relationship between 1/4 mile and HP ratings. Isn't that strange, oh pro drag racer that you are?!
Ok...lets get back on topic. I certainly would not buy a S600 or BMW 750...too much money and simply overkill. I would rather get a Porsche Cayman S or something along that line. Hell, i even like the Miata these days.
What did I ever say/write that leads you to believe that I don't understand the relationship between the 1/4 mile and HP. Maybe it was this statement; "I've been around drag racing long enough to know that dynos and trap speed don't win drag races!" I stand behind that statement 100%. Dynos, torque, HP, trap speeds, etc are all indicators that help tune your engine and go fast. I've seen vehicles with less of everything win races over vehicle that on paper can't be beat.
I do agree that the LS460 is the better bang for the buck. I do agree that the MB and BMW have better performance. If you take another look at the topic I started, you will see that I said "New Benchmark in LUXURY!" I believe the LS is more Luxurious and I posted the features that I feel make it better, especially in that price range.
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
We will see if your statement is right...Lexus is keeping supply low which means that they do not see it as a big seller. Mercedes has been doing quite well with the new S550...and no major issues (from what i hear) yet!! That must be a first for MB!!
I wonder what the sales figures are between S550 and LS460...it should be a close race i would imagine. Your definition of luxury is odd...luxury for me also involves performance, esp. given how much these vehicles costs these days. And with Lexus LS going up in price (after all the options), Lexus LS is no longer the major bargain in the segment. And once again, typical of most Lexus cars (except your IS350), it remains lifeless in most reviews i have read. (I have not driven the new LS yet.)
For my hard earned money (if i have enough), it would be a hard call between S550 and LS460...IF reliability is good for S550 (hard to believe though), then i do feel that S550 IS the benchmark in the class. The S550 has 98.9% of LS460 luxury, but Lexus only has probably 60% of S550's overall performance.
Koz
New member
Some interesting data on handling and braking!
http://www.autospies.com/news/VIDEO...S550-Brake-Stability-Control-Challenge-15314/
Koz
http://www.autospies.com/news/VIDEO...S550-Brake-Stability-Control-Challenge-15314/
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
I love those Japanese videos!!
I have yet to see a Japanese vehicle lose in those videos!! It's hilarious. Well, from most (if not all) American publications (C&D, R&T, Edmunds,etc.), the Lexus is far behind the Germans in any type of handling/braking tests. Hell, you should know that already with your IS350 vs. BMW 335i arguments, right Koz?!!Come on, Koz...where do you find these things?? It is abundantly clear that you go to great lengths to find any little known thing to support your greater cause...Toyota is without fault.:biggrin2:
And i am sure that you looked at this link: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/12087/2007-mercedes-benz-s550.html
(Sad part is that i don't even like Mercedes cars...but facts speak for themselves.)
Thai
Elite Member
Koz, wouldn't it be hard to be the "benchmark of luxury" when you're not at the top of initial quality survey?? Let's see, Mercedes S550 beats LS460 in performance, handling, and now initial quality! Please note that past LS400/430s have been undeniably the best in this survey by far. Mercedes is rapidly improving their products across the line...Lexus better watch out.
This tells it all:
Compact premium sporty: Porsche Boxster
Entry Premium: Lincoln MKZ
Midsized premium: Mercedes-Benz E-class
Large premium: Audi A8/Mercedes-Benz S-class
Premium sporty: Mercedes-Benz SL-class
Lexus RX is the only Lexus ranked.
This tells it all:
Compact premium sporty: Porsche Boxster
Entry Premium: Lincoln MKZ
Midsized premium: Mercedes-Benz E-class
Large premium: Audi A8/Mercedes-Benz S-class
Premium sporty: Mercedes-Benz SL-class
Lexus RX is the only Lexus ranked.
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Don't forget to respond to the BMW 335i thread too about IS being the benchmark there too!
Here ya go: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22258&perpage=15&pagenumber=5
