New shocks = lift?

[curmudge1]

After 193K miles, I had the shocks on my 2012 TE replaced with Bilstein 4600s.
Just because the original ones were old and I'm planning to keep it for as long as I can, it suits me.

So I picked up my 4R from the shop and they warned me that it's sitting higher. One of the guys calls it "Bigfoot", like the monster truck. But also that they expected that it would settle after some time. And it is sitting pretty high, compared to when I dropped it off. Rides a bit stiffer, but not a whole lot, expected compared to worn out shocks, I suppose.

Anyone else have this happen to their 4Runner? I don't want a lift, but a bit higher is OK, I guess. Raises the center of gravity is all, but I'm not doing anything crazy to cause a roll over, and I can still get in OK. Any experience or knowledge would be appreciated.

When I searched the forum, I found a couple of posts in the 3rd gen forum about how new shocks might let the springs lift the 4R, but I don't really get it.

 

[Saker]

Unless you installed adjustable shocks , which you didn’t, shocks do not lift a vehicle!

First thing that came to mind is, did your installer have the vehicle weight on the ground before they tightened the lower shock bolts?

If not, the lower rubber bushings on the shocks are preloaded and the issue …. and will ruin said bushings over time.

 

[Turfboy]

Could be the old shocks had failed and sagged out. New shocks restored original height. When I installed my new shocks I measured before and after as they were adjustable and I did not want a lift.

 

[Saker]

Could be the old shocks had failed and sagged out. New shocks restored original height. When I installed my new shocks I measured before and after as they were adjustable and I did not want a lift.

Shocks don't work like that.
If the shocks failed regardless, the springs on non-adjustable coilovers determine the height.
Shocks control how much and how fast the movement is.

 

[Saker]

Could be the old shocks had failed and sagged out. New shocks restored original height. When I installed my new shocks I measured before and after as they were adjustable and I did not want a lift.

What do you mean "sagged out"?

Shocks don't work like that.
If the shocks failed regardless, the springs on non-adjustable coilovers determine the height.
Shocks control how much and how fast the movement is.

 

[El Dusty]

Unless you installed adjustable shocks , which you didn’t, shocks do not lift a vehicle!

You're pretty far off here when speaking about the front axle on these 4Runners. Coilover style shocks still have a "height" setting even if they are not adjustable so swapping from an OEM to an aftermarket can yield a lift even when using the same springs.

Imagine the Bilstein 5100 with different snap ring settings. Same thing that is happening here between OEM and aftermarket.

 

[Saker]

You're pretty far off here when speaking about the front axle on these 4Runners. Coilover style shocks still have a "height" setting even if they are not adjustable so swapping from an OEM to an aftermarket can yield a lift even when using the same springs.

Imagine the Bilstein 5100 with different snap ring settings. Same thing that is happening here between OEM and aftermarket.

Ok, really? :lol: :doh:
If one changes shocks like for like, the location of the spring perch will be located in the same position on the shocks !
So I was talking about a standard, non adjustable shocks.
curmudge1 installed 4600’s
Read for yourself:
Product Details
Bilstein B6 4600 shock absorbers are designed as a direct fit upgrade to OE shock absorbers on stock height light trucks and SUV's.

Bilstein 5100 shocks are adjustable by changing the snap ring location.
Adjustable doesn’t always mean an adjustment ring on the shock body.

 

[honda250xtitan]

You're pretty far off here when speaking about the front axle on these 4Runners. Coilover style shocks still have a "height" setting even if they are not adjustable so swapping from an OEM to an aftermarket can yield a lift even when using the same springs.

Imagine the Bilstein 5100 with different snap ring settings. Same thing that is happening here between OEM and aftermarket.

thats still the spring providing the height. take a strut apart and you can compress it by hand/body weight.

IF the op doesnt have the wrong spring perch setting, he should verify the LCA cam bolts were tightened with the weight on the ground. same with the lower strut bolt.

 

[El Dusty]

Bilstein B6 4600 shock absorbers are designed as a direct fit upgrade to OE shock absorbers on stock height light trucks and SUV's.

An aftermarket company will never be able to match the OEM dimensions perfectly especially on a range of vehicles that have weight variations, toyota lean, etc.

If it is the OG springs then the only way he is achieving lift is if the shock construction is different yielding a different equilibrium point.

How the F do you think he turned his truck into big foot? :tongue:

 

[Saker]

An aftermarket company will never be able to match the OEM dimensions perfectly especially on a range of vehicles that have weight variations, toyota lean, etc.

That’s incorrect, it’s called vehicle application for a given item. Bilsteins will measure out correctly for a given application or all vehicles would have incorrect heights according to your theory.
Toyota lean plays zero in shock application.

If it is the OG springs then the only way he is achieving lift is if the shock construction is different

So, thank you for pointing that out for us…..
Wrong application when shocks were installed?
Otherwise it is incorrect installation procedure!

How the F do you think he turned his truck into big foot? :tongue:

Again, incorrect install.

 

[honda250xtitan]

An aftermarket company will never be able to match the OEM dimensions perfectly especially on a range of vehicles that have weight variations, toyota lean, etc.

If it is the OG springs then the only way he is achieving lift is if the shock construction is different yielding a different equilibrium point.

How the F do you think he turned his truck into big foot? :tongue:

OEM style bushings have a surprising amount of "spring". If they are installed incorrectly it will hold the weight of the vehicle. My nissan titan LCA's were torqued with it in the air and it gained 2-3" of lift. the ONLY change they did was swap the steering rack lol. (i dont remember the install process but they dropped the control arms etc.)

 

[Saker]

What [MENTION=137195]honda250xtitan[/MENTION] states is true with OEM and definitely Bilstein. More than likely other shock manufacturers as well.

This is not directed at any one person in this thread, it’s only an FYI.

One can contact Bilstein and they will inform you that their shocks lower shock bolt must be tightened with the vehicle on the ground or it will void Bilsteins warranty if sent in!

Contact them and inquire if you doubt that.

 

[cullowheebandit]

Basically, your springs are what determine the ride height, but old shocks can sag over time. So, when you put in those fresh Bilstein 4600s, they're probably just letting your springs do their thing properly again. It should settle a bit after a while, but even if it doesn't, it's probably not a huge deal unless you're really worried about the center of gravity. I wouldn't sweat it too much

 

[Bmnorm2]

Basically, your springs are what determine the ride height, but old shocks can sag over time. So, when you put in those fresh Bilstein 4600s, they're probably just letting your springs do their thing properly again. It should settle a bit after a while, but even if it doesn't, it's probably not a huge deal unless you're really worried about the center of gravity. I wouldn't sweat it too much

No.

These type of shocks are damping only. They do not provide any static force and will have no effect on ride height when correctly installed.

Just look at the units and use of spring constant and damping coefficient in systems equations.

Spring constant = k = N/mm or Lbf/in

Force from spring = F = k*x (x is compression distance of the spring)

Damping coefficient = c = Ns/m or kg/s - in other words force per velocity

Force from damper = F = c*V (v is velocity)

Sooooo when the truck is sitting still and static, velocity of the suspension is 0 and so the force from the damper is 0 , zero.

 

[fkheath]

No.

These type of shocks are damping only. They do not provide any static force and will have no effect on ride height when correctly installed.

Most modern shocks/struts are gas charged. They have a high pressure gas that pushes them to extend. Would that not slightly raise the suspension?

That is why some shocks are shipped with a strap to hold them compressed; don't want them to extend while in shipping.

 

[Bmnorm2]

Most modern shocks/struts are gas charged. They have a high pressure gas that pushes them to extend. Would that not slightly raise the suspension?

That is why some shocks are shipped with a strap to hold them compressed; don't want them to extend while in shipping.

For all intents and purposes, no.

Yes it does take some force (~20-50 lbs) to begin compressing a damper this size with gas charge (and some have an internal spring as well).

However, once you reach that threshold force the shock will continue to compress all the way without any increase in the force (constant force application). Obviously this doesn’t happen with a spring and so this not a preload that would apply static force to raise the vehicle.

There may be a very very small difference in height, but are talking less than 1/4” and likely not perceivable by the eye. OP states it sits a lot higher.

 

[El Dusty]

thats still the spring providing the height. take a strut apart and you can compress it by hand/body weight.

IF the op doesnt have the wrong spring perch setting, he should verify the LCA cam bolts were tightened with the weight on the ground. same with the lower strut bolt.

It is not ONLY the spring providing height. The height of the spring perch on the shock body also controls height. Thats how adjustable shocks work...

 

[honda250xtitan]

Yes I'm aware^^^^ but i'm referring to the damping force of the strut holding the weight of the vehicle. The spring does that.

 

[curmudge1]

Resolved!

Here's the resolution, in case anyone was wondering... thank you for the helpful replies to my original post, they helped me keep my head clear.

The local shop was puzzled, even re-did the install, loosened the shock mount bolts & put weight on the tires before tightening. As you're supposed to do, and which they were sure they did the first time. Even sent some pics to a rep from Bilstein. So, the guy I'm dealing with, a co-owner, gets a couple of replacement front struts from their distributor, new Bilstein 4600s. BTW, the lift was in the front, not so much in the back...

I was waiting for the work, and the guy showed me what happened.... when the new Bilstein struts arrived, the spring mount/bracket comes in a separate plastic bag, installed on the strut at install time. BUT!!! the first pair of struts had this mounting bracket already installed.... UPSIDE DOWN! which lifted the front a whole bunch, I want to say six inches, but I didn't measure, it was noticeably higher to get in the driver's side door.

Someone must have incorrectly installed the coil spring mounting brackets & returned them to the distributor, who didn't notice. And, I really don't blame the mechanic, why would he think the mounting bracket was upside down?

I wonder if this can be used as a "poor man's lift"? (not seriously suggesting).

 

[T4Rbro]

After 193K miles, I had the shocks on my 2012 TE replaced with Bilstein 4600s.
Just because the original ones were old and I'm planning to keep it for as long as I can, it suits me.

So I picked up my 4R from the shop and they warned me that it's sitting higher. One of the guys calls it "Bigfoot", like the monster truck. But also that they expected that it would settle after some time. And it is sitting pretty high, compared to when I dropped it off. Rides a bit stiffer, but not a whole lot, expected compared to worn out shocks, I suppose.

Anyone else have this happen to their 4Runner? I don't want a lift, but a bit higher is OK, I guess. Raises the center of gravity is all, but I'm not doing anything crazy to cause a roll over, and I can still get in OK. Any experience or knowledge would be appreciated.

When I searched the forum, I found a couple of posts in the 3rd gen forum about how new shocks might let the springs lift the 4R, but I don't really get it.

Front shocks are actually coil overs. Struts if you prefer. Front could get replaced with those as a single unit. So yes the front could can sag with age and use. All springs will sag with use. Drive it normally for a week or two then go fired it out on something off camber. It'll compress the coils and help cycle that spring to settle into it's happy place. They do change length as they age. Just replaced mine with heavier springs as my front could had shattered in several pieces on the passenger front. My nose is sitting three inches higher than stuck now and she sat two inches higher than stuck prior but the coils had dagger closer to an inch higher than stuck even before that pside fractured in several places both too and bottom of the coil. This happens with over compression off road articulations, with really tough high speed compression shock like hitting a frigging deep pothole on the highway and just with metal fatigue over time and many compression cycles. For most vehicles a spring lasts the lifetime of the vehicle unless it suffers a failure due to severe duty, such as I mention above. And sometimes there's a flat in three metal or in the heat treating process.
Spring shop's can actually anneal old sittings, clean them up, stretch them back out and temper them back into bouncy springs again. Not many places that do this left here in Ontario Canada but there's a few still. Not uncommon maintenance on leaf spring trucks and muscle cars. The torque rwd muscle cars have are brutal on rear springs especially leaf springs. My rear coils are added and sagging and my nose sits a full inch higher currently. I just drove her off the hoist Tuesday after the front end suspension rebuild with new eibach could and Bilstein shocks. Even at the shortest setting on the shock spring heights she sits higher now then ever before. Handles okay, bit stiffer but my trucks for a lot of aftermarket weight add ons so I need that additional sitting rate higher than stuck. So that lifted her obviously. I had 600# springs but went up to 650# and it added two inches nose height with the otherwise same setup. I had that much coil sag going on before. From both increased weight list and aged springs even before the one fractured. New rear coils of the same right rating will likely lift my trucks bum slightly. But I'll go one better and increase spring rates to match the actual weight she carries daily.
So yeah that's"normal" and to be expected when you replace worn springs with new ones.
My cousin's hubby had the leaf springs remade for his WWII willys Jeep . Made to factory spec nothing custom. When he picked up the Jeep from the sitting shop it sat four inches higher than he's been digging it prior! Four inches on leaf springs with zero modifications from stock. It's a restored to factory stock 1942 Jeep. The springs had an extra inch from stock specs bumper Heights according to the military manuals but they did sag that inch water a year of driving her. She now sits three inches higher than when he restored her due to those then sixty year old leaf springs having just dagger that much and lost their lift. Didn't replace those leads, just had them serviced,annealed, bent back to factory spec arched and heat treated to temper correctly back to hardened and resiliency. The same factory springs were retained throughout. They did get new rubber bushings and they added a rubber anti squeak pad 1/8" thick been #1 and #2 leaf on both sides. That's all they did to gain four inches of ride height and body clearance. Crazy right.