No more lame azz throttle response!!!

[Jetboy]

We know without a doubt that the ECU has memory to "learn" some things. For example it can store error codes as well as a slew of information about sensor readings from the last ?? number of trips you've taken. The black box download ability is compelling evidence of this to me.

I think that it's most likely that it stores some basic parameters of sensors so it's not starting from scratch to learn closed loop optimized fuel and spark maps. I don't think it learns that you drive fast so it sets the throttle response differently. Only something along the lines of timing advance before the knock sensor is triggered.

 

[manofsteele2003]

I heard about this on the FJ forums, few people had it, they seemed to think it worked. I was wondering if they made one for the 4Runner.

 

[BlacknTan]

I don't understand this ...

I press the accelerator harder, and the rig goes faster, just like everything else I've driven. This is the first vehicle I've had with a drive by wire accelerator, and I'm pleasantly surprised by it. The go pedal is very responsive in my book!

In any case, no desire to change it just for the sake of change ... but, I'm old school, so don't go by me!

 

[philsey]

We know without a doubt that the ECU has memory to "learn" some things. For example it can store error codes as well as a slew of information about sensor readings from the last ?? number of trips you've taken. The black box download ability is compelling evidence of this to me.

I think that it's most likely that it stores some basic parameters of sensors so it's not starting from scratch to learn closed loop optimized fuel and spark maps. I don't think it learns that you drive fast so it sets the throttle response differently. Only something along the lines of timing advance before the knock sensor is triggered.

Assuming this is directed to my remarks ....

Storing into memory a few simple data points is a very small number of bytes. And comparing those one to another or other fixed parameters is simple code and non-complex ecu tasks.

I'm challenging whether the complex software algorithms, memory storage, and cpu processing required to "learn" my driving habits, and modify engine performance accordingly, exists. I think not, but the assumption that it does persists. Again, inquiring minds...
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] Greg, what say you?

 

[philsey]

I don't understand this ...

I press the accelerator harder, and the rig goes faster, just like everything else I've driven. This is the first vehicle I've had with a drive by wire accelerator, and I'm pleasantly surprised by it. The go pedal is very responsive in my book!
!

Yup, this. Press it slow, responds slow - press it fast, responds fast. Not rocket science.

 

[wfo9]

I don't understand this ...

I press the accelerator harder, and the rig goes faster, just like everything else I've driven. This is the first vehicle I've had with a drive by wire accelerator, and I'm pleasantly surprised by it. The go pedal is very responsive in my book!

In any case, no desire to change it just for the sake of change ... but, I'm old school, so don't go by me!

If you only drive one car/truck on a regular basis, it is not a big deal. Your muscle memory will dial it in... But if you drive different rigs, the t4r throttle mapping can be annoying. Its not linear at all and seems to convert 50% of pedal travel to about 30% commanded TP. Then, once you get about 80% pedal travel it flips to match pedal position with commanded.

I don't think most people understand that there are two very different ways of describing throttle response (when it comes to an electronically controlled system).

1. Is just the map between pedal position sensor and commanded throttle in the ECU.

2. Is the tq produced to the wheels by the motor at a given commanded throttle position. A better name for this is powertrain response or engine response. This is a culmination of many things (TB opening, timing, injector timing, injector pulse width, cam phasing, rpm, gear/downshift, tq converter lockup....)

The device being discussed here can only impact #1 by mixing the pedal position signal, but that can create a perceived improvement in throttle response.

Personally, not worth messing with for me, but I can see where it would be worth it to some people. Now, if Toyota had an update to the shitty throttle mapping (or there was some other tuning solution) where you could match commanded TP with actual position, I would do it without hesitation.

 

[1engineer]

Assuming this is directed to my remarks ....

Storing into memory a few simple data points is a very small number of bytes. And comparing those one to another or other fixed parameters is simple code and non-complex ecu tasks.

I'm challenging whether the complex software algorithms, memory storage, and cpu processing required to "learn" my driving habits, and modify engine performance accordingly, exists. I think not, but the assumption that it does persists. Again, inquiring minds...

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] Greg, what say you?

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/185424-throttle-response-14-4runner-vs-13-fj-tt.html

Post #42.

 

[Engineer]

I would bet my money if we rented 10 brand new identical 4runners, gave them to 10 different drivers and then did a blind study after 1000 miles that not a single driver would be able to drive all 10 and then pick which one was his based on any learning’s the drive train did..................and no eating subway in the truck before the study is done!

My understanding of the product above is you press 10% throttle input, it “modifies” the signal with a potentiometer and that position now becomes some value above 10% to the ECU. So…… essentially $300 vs. pushing your foot down further. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[WTERUNNER]

I would bet my money if we rented 10 brand new identical 4runners, gave them to 10 different drivers and then did a blind study after 1000 miles that not a single driver would be able to drive all 10 and then pick which one was his based on any learning’s the drive train did..................and no eating subway in the truck before the study is done!

My understanding of the product above is you press 10% throttle input, it “modifies” the signal with a potentiometer and that position now becomes some value above 10% to the ECU. So…… essentially $300 vs. pushing your foot down further. Maybe I am missing something.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Normally if you press 30% throttle input your not getting 30% of the throttle, more like 10 to 15%. With the Sprintbooster if you press 30% throttle input you get 30% increase in throttle. It's a more direct link which results in the perception of increased throttle response. Until someone comes up with a way to re flash or tune the ECU, which is the correct way to do this, Sprintbooster is the only option.

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

I've posted on this statement before, so once more can't hurt. Other than your seat of the pants opinion, I challenge you to substantiate that this mapping/learning capability actually exists. It is my opinion the ECU is not powerful enough, the memory insufficient, nor is the software sophisticated enough to perform this. To-date I've never seen real information cited. Until then, I continue to consider this an urban myth. Inquiring minds...

Perhaps [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] has real information ...

Unfortunately, there's really no way for me to show the difference "on command". The difference IS a seat-of-the-pants opinion, unless I spend a ton of money on data-graphing equipment, capable of showing throttle input and timing of input vs. actual throttle response!

I can see it with my torque app, having mapped out all of the throttle inputs the 4 runner has, such as these:

Absolute Throttle Position B
Accelerator Pedal D
Accelerator Pedal E
Accelerator Pedal F
Relative Accelerator Pedal Position
Relative Throttle Position
Throttle Position (Manifold)

I believe there are other factors that affect this "throttle lag" that many folks have noted, one set in particular are the acceleration sensors that the vehicle has. I have proven to my wife on several occasions where turning the steering wheel from a stop (such as I've noted before while backing out of a stall while turning wheel to the passenger's side, then putting it in drive, turning wheel to the driver's side and touching the pedal like I normally would if I were at a stoplight), there's a massive delay in which the mind will subconsciously press down further because there's no immediate movement, only to find that at that very moment the vehicle lunges forward!

Here's the problem with all this talk about the lagging throttle, several folks here think its a lack of power and we just need to push down "HARDER". That's not the problem that's being discussed! The issue is the "DELAY" between pressing down the accelerator and the engine's actual increase in rpm! So all those comments of "press down harder if you wanna go faster" is not the problem!

Now, back to the delay being better with a reset of the ecu. Yes, there is a difference, whether its the ecu actually learning the response of the driver's driving characteristics, or the ecu's processing power of the data at that moment (I know its worse when turning the steering wheel), or the sensors adjusting to the conditions surrounding the driver/vehicle, or maybe its just a lazy ecu, I don't think we'll ever know unless someone from toyota's ecu design department comes on here and answers the big question of whether its capable of learning driving habits.

I would love to be able to record a video of the torque data and my foot depressing the pedal at the exact same time, but I do not have the equipment to do that, and even if I did, I'm pretty sure someone will say "the video is fake"! I can see with my own two eyes that depressing the throttle down and watching the response in my torque app shows the delay WHEN I DEPRESS SLOWLY AND EVENLY. This changes if I punch the throttle down, it is IMMEDIATELY SEEN as full throttle in torque. If I punch the throttle down to approximately half throttle, same thing, almost an immediate response to 50% in Torque, but if I depress it calmly halfway down, the numbers are "laggy"!

The only way I can see being able to truly test this is by designing something that depresses the throttle in a perfectly linear and timed way, and graphing both that as well as the actual throttle position at the throttle body. By changing the speed at which the throttle is depressed in this test, it would be possible to graph the speed at which the input is delivered to the throttle body, and there is really no other way to do this!

Finally, the Sprint Booster has absolutely no way to change the timing of the input! Unless its capable of reading your mind, there is just no way for it to take the delay out! Having said that, and seeing that the speed at which you press down the throttle, it is possible to make it react "quicker", because the Sprint Booster is changing the linearity of the pedal. So, even though you are pressing the pedal to the exact, same spot every time, the Sprint Booster is altering that point by showing the ecu/throttle body that you're actually pressing it down 30% (or more, I'm guessing at the percentage the Sprint Booster is changing the linearity), and even though you're pressing at the same speed, you're pressing it XX% more within the same timeframe, which means its actually being pressed faster and harder than normal.

Hope this makes sense, its very hard to explain in just words!

 

[Zeder]

FWIW - I have had one of these installed for 3 years on my 2012 Trail. (I got it for $99 so I though it was worth the test/$ ratio)

Out of the many vehicles I have driven the throttle mapping just plain sucks on the 4Runner. It is lazy for lack of a better description. This product does nothing more than change the sensitivity of the skinny peddle. Does it make a difference in performance to the actual truck, NO. Does it make the truck FEEL more responsive, ABSOLUTELY. Does it increase the pleasure of driving my T4R on a daily basis, YES it does!

I have four different vehicle in my stable, ranging from Minivan (Blue Marshmallow) to 515 HP 1/4 mile strip car. This little product just makes the driving experience of the truck feel normal. Using the second setting. The third setting makes the peddle too twitchy. With the added benefit of being able to return the throttle mapping to normal (lazy) when offroad in the slow technical stuff. My Offroad 2005 Xterra had a feature that remapped the throttle automatically when it was in 4Lo (reduced the sensitivity) great feature which worked well. Now I have the same option but under my control.

Would I purchase one again? YES with out question. Totally worth it to me with my driving style. YMMV

 

[adam2562]

FWIW - I have had one of these installed for 3 years on my 2012 Trail. (I got it for $99 so I though it was worth the test/$ ratio)

Out of the many vehicles I have driven the throttle mapping just plain sucks on the 4Runner. It is lazy for lack of a better description. This product does nothing more than change the sensitivity of the skinny peddle. Does it make a difference in performance to the actual truck, NO. Does it make the truck FEEL more responsive, ABSOLUTELY. Does it increase the pleasure of driving my T4R on a daily basis, YES it does!

I have four different vehicle in my stable, ranging from Minivan (Blue Marshmallow) to 515 HP 1/4 mile strip car. This little product just makes the driving experience of the truck feel normal. Using the second setting. The third setting makes the peddle too twitchy. With the added benefit of being able to return the throttle mapping to normal (lazy) when offroad in the slow technical stuff. My Offroad 2005 Xterra had a feature that remapped the throttle automatically when it was in 4Lo (reduced the sensitivity) great feature which worked well. Now I have the same option but under my control.

Would I purchase one again? YES with out question. Totally worth it to me with my driving style. YMMV

interesting.. i'm my opinion i don't care what it does, if it makes it feel less like a laggy tps. but at this point i think the price is too high for what it does and the probability of returning it

 

[JeremyB]

I would love to be able to record a video of the torque data and my foot depressing the pedal at the exact same time, but I do not have the equipment to do that, and even if I did, I'm pretty sure someone will say "the video is fake"! I can see with my own two eyes that depressing the throttle down and watching the response in my torque app shows the delay WHEN I DEPRESS SLOWLY AND EVENLY. This changes if I punch the throttle down, it is IMMEDIATELY SEEN as full throttle in torque. If I punch the throttle down to approximately half throttle, same thing, almost an immediate response to 50% in Torque, but if I depress it calmly halfway down, the numbers are "laggy"!

Haven't messed with these PIDs before, but aren't
Accelerator Pedal D
Accelerator Pedal E
Accelerator Pedal F

the actual reading from the pedal sensor? That is the exact same thing as videoing your foot. Comparing that with the actual TB blade position will show you any delays.

 

[Jetboy]

Assuming this is directed to my remarks ....

Storing into memory a few simple data points is a very small number of bytes. And comparing those one to another or other fixed parameters is simple code and non-complex ecu tasks.

I'm challenging whether the complex software algorithms, memory storage, and cpu processing required to "learn" my driving habits, and modify engine performance accordingly, exists. I think not, but the assumption that it does persists. Again, inquiring minds...

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] Greg, what say you?

I think I was agreeing with you. I think the functional "learning" is optimizing certain parameters for the current engine. As the engine ages for example I'd expect the fuel and spark maps to adjust gradually over time. I think it will learn to adjust for the MAF sensor spacers for example - which is one of the reasons I think any signal spoofing or modifying needs to come from a terminal measurement sensor like the O2 sensor, not an input sensor that can be easily recognized and negated.

I don't think it's actually learning that driver x likes to go fast so it'll change the throttle response curve or shift points. I suppose if someone really wanted to get into the weeds on this we could find out. Pull out the ecu, and run it on a bench with all simulated inputs and start measuring signals on the output side. You could design a pretty straight forward test scenario to identify what is retained in some type of memory. I don't have the time or the proper equipment to do such a test, but maybe if anyone here is a professor it would be a fun assignment for some physics or computer science students.

 

[1engineer]

Unfortunately, there's really no way for me to show the difference "on command". The difference IS a seat-of-the-pants opinion, unless I spend a ton of money on data-graphing equipment, capable of showing throttle input and timing of input vs. actual throttle response!

I can see it with my torque app, having mapped out all of the throttle inputs the 4 runner has, such as these:

Absolute Throttle Position B
Accelerator Pedal D
Accelerator Pedal E
Accelerator Pedal F
Relative Accelerator Pedal Position
Relative Throttle Position
Throttle Position (Manifold)

I believe there are other factors that affect this "throttle lag" that many folks have noted, one set in particular are the acceleration sensors that the vehicle has. I have proven to my wife on several occasions where turning the steering wheel from a stop (such as I've noted before while backing out of a stall while turning wheel to the passenger's side, then putting it in drive, turning wheel to the driver's side and touching the pedal like I normally would if I were at a stoplight), there's a massive delay in which the mind will subconsciously press down further because there's no immediate movement, only to find that at that very moment the vehicle lunges forward!

Here's the problem with all this talk about the lagging throttle, several folks here think its a lack of power and we just need to push down "HARDER". That's not the problem that's being discussed! The issue is the "DELAY" between pressing down the accelerator and the engine's actual increase in rpm! So all those comments of "press down harder if you wanna go faster" is not the problem!

Now, back to the delay being better with a reset of the ecu. Yes, there is a difference, whether its the ecu actually learning the response of the driver's driving characteristics, or the ecu's processing power of the data at that moment (I know its worse when turning the steering wheel), or the sensors adjusting to the conditions surrounding the driver/vehicle, or maybe its just a lazy ecu, I don't think we'll ever know unless someone from toyota's ecu design department comes on here and answers the big question of whether its capable of learning driving habits.

I would love to be able to record a video of the torque data and my foot depressing the pedal at the exact same time, but I do not have the equipment to do that, and even if I did, I'm pretty sure someone will say "the video is fake"! I can see with my own two eyes that depressing the throttle down and watching the response in my torque app shows the delay WHEN I DEPRESS SLOWLY AND EVENLY. This changes if I punch the throttle down, it is IMMEDIATELY SEEN as full throttle in torque. If I punch the throttle down to approximately half throttle, same thing, almost an immediate response to 50% in Torque, but if I depress it calmly halfway down, the numbers are "laggy"!

The only way I can see being able to truly test this is by designing something that depresses the throttle in a perfectly linear and timed way, and graphing both that as well as the actual throttle position at the throttle body. By changing the speed at which the throttle is depressed in this test, it would be possible to graph the speed at which the input is delivered to the throttle body, and there is really no other way to do this!

Finally, the Sprint Booster has absolutely no way to change the timing of the input! Unless its capable of reading your mind, there is just no way for it to take the delay out! Having said that, and seeing that the speed at which you press down the throttle, it is possible to make it react "quicker", because the Sprint Booster is changing the linearity of the pedal. So, even though you are pressing the pedal to the exact, same spot every time, the Sprint Booster is altering that point by showing the ecu/throttle body that you're actually pressing it down 30% (or more, I'm guessing at the percentage the Sprint Booster is changing the linearity), and even though you're pressing at the same speed, you're pressing it XX% more within the same timeframe, which means its actually being pressed faster and harder than normal.

Hope this makes sense, its very hard to explain in just words!

Alright, enough. [MENTION=118444]flyinhawaiian01[/MENTION] this is not directed at you even though I quoted your post. You bring up some key points in it though.

Logic 101

Why in the world would engineers make the throttle perform like it does? It's response is non linear during application (meaning 10% displacement does not give you 10% of throttle) and that is unlike a lot of vehicles! It lags at the beginning! When you cut the wheels you have to give it more gas and then it lurches! Who are these dumba$$es designing our $hit?

1. I have an 800 hp electric motor that can give me 2000 hp instantly on start up. Do I really want to design my system with components that will be able to handle 8000 hp (4:1 safety factor) or do I want to start it GRADUALLY over time (say one second instead of 40 milliseconds) by using a variable fill fluid coupling or a variable frequency drive? If I do it this way I can use less robust components and still get the job done and not break anything.
If I design it for 8000 hp instant it's going to take a lot of money and I still am going to break $hit. For RELIABILITY and DURABILITY, I am going to put in a "soft start" so I can get the reliability and durability the customers expect. Get the reference? Basically the difference between a dragster and a passenger sedan.

2. If the 4Runner is designed to go off road (it is), why wouldn't the engineers take that into consideration when designing the throttle as well? Anyone here understand what "metering" or "fine control" is? Go find a log about 8" in diameter, pull your 4Runner up to it and climb over it using the first 10% of your pedal. Now pull up to the log and immediately push the accelerator down 30%. Which way is better? Having fine control in the low throttle positioning is key to off road performance and in some instances it could be the difference between rolling your truck or safely getting through a situation. Again the reliability and durability come into play here too. Being able to gently bring the vehicle down versus dropping the axle from three feet will definitely extend the life of the components. I'm not even going to talk about the efficiency improvement of a soft start, or in this case a accelerator pedal that gives a better range of control in the first 10% because it's huge.

This thread is just another case of people wanting everything with no compromise. I did a thread here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/182051-expectations.html that talks about unreasonable expectations. Guys, everything is a compromise, especially when it comes to designing a vehicle. Do you want reliability and durability or do you want high performance? Do you want the ability to go off road and perform well or do you want a street truck only? The 4Runner is a vehicle that does both reasonably well but, butbutbut, there are compromises inherent to making it perform in the dirt and on the street. Trade it if you don't like it but before you b!tch try figuring out the "WHY" before you judge.

 

[WTERUNNER]

Alright, enough. [MENTION=118444]flyinhawaiian01[/MENTION] this is not directed at you even though I quoted your post. You bring up some key points in it though.

Logic 101

Why in the world would engineers make the throttle perform like it does? It's response is non linear during application (meaning 10% displacement does not give you 10% of throttle) and that is unlike a lot of vehicles! It lags at the beginning! When you cut the wheels you have to give it more gas and then it lurches! Who are these dumba$$es designing our $hit?

1. I have an 800 hp electric motor that can give me 2000 hp instantly on start up. Do I really want to design my system with components that will be able to handle 8000 hp (4:1 safety factor) or do I want to start it GRADUALLY over time (say one second instead of 40 milliseconds) by using a variable fill fluid coupling or a variable frequency drive? If I do it this way I can use less robust components and still get the job done and not break anything.
If I design it for 8000 hp instant it's going to take a lot of money and I still am going to break $hit. For RELIABILITY and DURABILITY, I am going to put in a "soft start" so I can get the reliability and durability the customers expect. Get the reference? Basically the difference between a dragster and a passenger sedan.

2. If the 4Runner is designed to go off road (it is), why wouldn't the engineers take that into consideration when designing the throttle as well? Anyone here understand what "metering" or "fine control" is? Go find a log about 8" in diameter, pull your 4Runner up to it and climb over it using the first 10% of your pedal. Now pull up to the log and immediately push the accelerator down 30%. Which way is better? Having fine control in the low throttle positioning is key to off road performance and in some instances it could be the difference between rolling your truck or safely getting through a situation. Again the reliability and durability come into play here too. Being able to gently bring the vehicle down versus dropping the axle from three feet will definitely extend the life of the components. I'm not even going to talk about the efficiency improvement of a soft start, or in this case a accelerator pedal that gives a better range of control in the first 10% because it's huge.

This thread is just another case of people wanting everything with no compromise. I did a thread here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/182051-expectations.html that talks about unreasonable expectations. Guys, everything is a compromise, especially when it comes to designing a vehicle. Do you want reliability and durability or do you want high performance? Do you want the ability to go off road and perform well or do you want a street truck only? The 4Runner is a vehicle that does both reasonably well but, butbutbut, there are compromises inherent to making it perform in the dirt and on the street. Trade it if you don't like it but before you b!tch try figuring out the "WHY" before you judge.

Understood but in today's day and technology it is possible for manufacturers to give multiple driving modes. Several already do this so the expectations are not that unreasonable.

 

[Jetboy]

At least the trail edition already does have different off-road throttle mapping - 5 versions along with new functionality of each of the different terrain types in the multi terrain select mode.

I'm pretty firmly in the camp that it feels slow because of the transmission controls more than anything else. My rx350 operates consistently in one gear lower than the 4runner and drops a gear or two very quickly, so the engine lives at much higher rpms. Because of that it "feels" a lot more powerful. I don't think fixing our throttle is nearly as important to what most users here seem to want than re-mapping the shifting. I suspect 4.56 gears are a pretty close approximation to doing the same thing and the reason why so many people like it.

I personally like the low speed control offroad and I really like 20+mpg. If I wanted more hp I could have bought a nice used 200 series for the same price. I can't justify 13mpg.

 

[Antman]

I haven't heard one complaint from the off road crowd about throttle response in the dirt.

Taking these trucks off road clears up a lot of Toyota's "tuning" decisions.
Mushy suspension?... drives like a Cadillac on the trail.
Body roll/nose dive?... check out that articulation.
Laggy throttle?... Like 1E said, watch me creep over this log nice and slow.

I guess my point is, when I joined this forum I thought these guys were nuts to take such a nice, expensive machine off road and scratch it up. Now that I've done just that, a few times, I can tell you that it is a shame to NOT take this truck off the beaten path.

You truly can't appreciate it until you do.

 

[WTERUNNER]

I haven't heard one complaint from the off road crowd about throttle response in the dirt.

Taking these trucks in the off road clears up a lot of Toyota's "tuning" decisions.
Mushy suspension?... drives like a Cadillac on the trail.
Body roll/nose dive?... check out that articulation.
Laggy throttle?... Like 1E said, watch me creep over this log nice and slow.

I guess my point is, when I joined this forum I thought these guys were nuts to take such a nice, expensive machine off road and scratch it up. Now that I've done just that, a few times, I can tell you that it is a shame to NOT take this truck off the beaten path.

You truly can't appreciate it until you do.

I hear ya but I didn't buy the 4Runner to go off-road. I bought it because I needed a family vehicle that would carry all my stuff and the all weather abilities. That and because mini vans suck.

 

[KiruxaT4R]

I hear ya but I didn't buy the 4Runner to go off-road. I bought it because I needed a family vehicle that would carry all my stuff and the all weather abilities. That and because mini vans suck.

What 1enginner and ANTMAN said +

I am not sure what you are expecting out of this vehicle. I personally had a pleasure of importing a 1994 80 series land cruiser with 1HZ NA diesel engine...now that was a sluggish machine but what a machine it was off-road and it could totally go further than a 5th gen 4runner in stock to stock compare.

In my opinion these trucks are 1. Off-road/rough terrain
2. Street SUV etc.

In that order.

I do get a bit tired of nature of 4Runner once in while and this is when I go and jump into my 2012 GTI 6Manual with H&R suspension etc etc....wwwhhheeee!!! Get it out of the system...back to 4Runner

You can put whatever you want into your truck because its yours so its all good. However, in my opinion if you didn't buy a 4Runner to go off-road but to carry your family, luggage etc......you shouldn't have bought a body on frame TRUCK that is wrapped into SUV skin. Instead, there are plenty better options for uni-body SUVs who are waaay more refined and responsive that a 4Runner.

I guess what I am saying is if I didn't take my 4Runner off-road/camping/fishing/exploring remote places......I'd never buy a 4Runner.