Odometer Fraud 2.0

[McFinnigan]

I posted on here last week about a 99 runner with 150,xxx miles that had 2 owners that was 2 states away. Talked with the "owner" for about 3 hours, spoke with the wife, and felt pretty good about it. Bought a flight out the next day.

Also contacted DiggerTR4 who had made a post about doing a carfax for me.

Flew up to Eugene, OR arrived at 10pm and met at a lit up parking lot at my request. Did the look over, every thing checked out. Drove back to the house, made purchase and made the 1,400 mile truck home.

Fast forward 2 days later, on the final stretch home. Got the carfax from Digger and low and behold... 5 owners. Eh, I can deal with that. Possible that the names were changed on the title, no big deal. Continue reading.... Last odometer check 178,xxx miles in 2009!?!?!? That's a little off.

Found some dealer info on the carfax and contacted them. The last time they had seen the car was September 2014... 223,xxx

Got home last night and slept on it. Went to work this morning. Contacted Oregon who suggested contacting a lawyer: scheduled for tomorrow.

Did a little more research on the seller. He had originally claimed to be selling the vehicle for his mother. Looks like, however, at some point he bought it from the lady who's name is on the Title that's in my possession. Not sure if she is involved or not, but I searched the seller in Google and about 5 car ads popped up from the last 5 months.

I'm glad I had some time on the drive home to let go of the rage I was feeling, and didn't fly off the handle like I wanted to

I'll update this thread as it situation progresses

 

[MONTYMTB]

That sucks. Hope you can nail that seller to the wall.
In your original post about it, you stated "...and they can provide me with all maint docs dating back to purchase (second owner, 10 years)." Did he provide those docs? Just wondering if the intervals looks normal and if they have mileage included.

 

[McFinnigan]

His providing of docs was pictures of all the docs. Now that I look back on it, I feel like the dumbest person alive. He told me the docs were with his mom and that she would throw them in the mail.

After contacting the dealership were the "owner" had taken it, yes all intervals look normal. Timing belt was done at 195k

 

[hearno]

Might want to contact the police as well. Looks like their criminal code might cover it as fraud: ORS 164.085 - Theft by deception - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes

 

[jeremyc74]

In for the updates. That sucks. These things hold up so well that they're just easy OD fraud. I pulled Carfax on mine about 6 months after I bought it because it has some Hawaii stickers on it and the curiosity was killing me. I was almost afraid to look at it for fear of seeing something awful (like a washed salvage title, 250k miles, or major accident) that would ruin it for me, but I got lucky. There was one OD discrepancy years ago from an oil change that just seemed to be a typo, because everything else fell in line after that.

Hope you get some satisfaction. If I were local I'd go over there and shit in their mailbox for you.

 

[Drcoffee]

Assuming you verified the vin with what was on the carfax, why did you buy it before receiving the carfax anyway? What's the point of getting the report if you plan to buy it on a dark night in a lit parking lot anyway? I dont get it.

You should have just ordered your own carfax while you were traveling to Oregon. Then you could have confronted them. But now you have the burden to prove they defrauded you by altering the odometer. Cavat emptor. Buyer beware.

Well you own it now. Spending thousands on an attorney is pointless. You can usually sign up up on the toyota owners website and enter the vin. This will pull up all of the service visits done at the dealerships. Not sure what else you can do from here. But I defer back to the first paragraph. Why did you buy it without doing any research? Live and learn.

A quick tip. Google all the phone numbers for internet sales contacts. I love the CL seller who lists it as a personal sale but have 4 other vehicles listed for sale and a history of car sales going back years. Google has a wealth of personal information on everyone. Be careful what you post out there. Its cached forever or at least until the end of the computer age. If we keep pissing off Putin, it could be sooner than later.

 

[jeremyc74]

But now you have the burden to prove they defrauded you by altering the odometer. Cavat emptor. Buyer beware.

Well you own it now. Spending thousands on an attorney is pointless.

What?! No. Proving it is easy. All he has to do is have the original ad. OD fraud is highly illegal, and most states will vigorously prosecute it. It damn sure voids the sale if the OP wants to pursue it in the legal system.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

You should have just ordered your own carfax while you were traveling to Oregon....

"woulda, coulda, shoulda" I don't think we need to poke the guy with a sharp stick while he's down. I'm just saying.

McFinnigan, I am really sorry to hear about this! I hope a good resolution comes from this. Best of luck!

 

[ajonesnv]

Assuming you verified the vin with what was on the carfax, why did you buy it before receiving the carfax anyway? What's the point of getting the report if you plan to buy it on a dark night in a lit parking lot anyway? I dont get it.

You should have just ordered your own carfax while you were traveling to Oregon. Then you could have confronted them. But now you have the burden to prove they defrauded you by altering the odometer. Cavat emptor. Buyer beware.

Well you own it now. Spending thousands on an attorney is pointless. You can usually sign up up on the toyota owners website and enter the vin. This will pull up all of the service visits done at the dealerships. Not sure what else you can do from here. But I defer back to the first paragraph. Why did you buy it without doing any research? Live and learn.

A quick tip. Google all the phone numbers for internet sales contacts. I love the CL seller who lists it as a personal sale but have 4 other vehicles listed for sale and a history of car sales going back years. Google has a wealth of personal information on everyone. Be careful what you post out there. Its cached forever or at least until the end of the computer age. If we keep pissing off Putin, it could be sooner than later.

Class act here...

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Sorry to hear what happened...keep updates coming.

 

[Brilliant]

Not going to be hard to recover here if you can establish the mileage was not correct and it was reported differently than actual.

Did you do the odometer disclosure as part of the sale? Its optional in OR for 10 year + vehicles.

ORS 803.102 - Odometer disclosure statement upon transfer of interest - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes

 

[StreetCreeper]

Figure out the correct milage as close as possible, then calculate the true value of the vehicle. Once you get an idea of what you should have paid for the truck, contact an attorney in Eugene and have him/her visit the seller at home or work to advise them that you are going to pursue this matter as odometer fraud which is a class C felony in Oregon. Then give the seller three options if you wish to keep the truck:

#1. Refund the difference between what they sold it to you for—and what it is actually worth. Then add on any attorney fees in addition to $500 for your time/effort whilst collecting evidence and hiring said attorney.

#2. Send a driver out with a money order for the full refund amount plus cost of the trip to and from Oregon (airfare, food and fuel + time), in addition to attorney and DMV fees. Once the check clears, the driver can take possesion and drive the truck back to Oregon.

#3. Become a convicted felon, possibly go to jail, pay a fine, and earn the eternal damnation of T4R.org members world-wide and henceforth forever be known as a dirty no-good scoundrel to anyone who will listen.

 

[BrandonF]

OP, no offence but you bought the vehicle and then decided to look at the car fax. And now you're hear whining about getting screwed over...

 

[Drcoffee]

What?! No. Proving it is easy. All he has to do is have the original ad. OD fraud is highly illegal, and most states will vigorously prosecute it. It damn sure voids the sale if the OP wants to pursue it in the legal system.

Did you see the seller roll back the odometer? I sure didn't and I doubt the OP did either. He simply stated what was on the odometer. The seller may have been defrauded and never knew it. You would need to prove he was complict.

Its a tough thing to prove unless he admits he did it. And that wont happen.

If its not a salvage title, lick your wounds and move on. It must have shown like truck with those miles so maybe it was well maintained.

I'm not poking the guy with a sharp stick (but I have been known to do that before). I just think he's just going to be peeing upstream.

And I'd bet an equal amount that its not his first rodeo.

Oh and for all future buyers of online listings
if the guy you talk to on the phone isn't the seller RED FLAG
If the person you spoke to isnt to person you will meet to see it. RED FLAG
If the seller says he is selling it for his mother RED FLAG
If the seller wants you to follow him somewhere else to complete the sale RED FLAG

 

[MONTYMTB]

OP, no offence but you bought the vehicle and then decided to look at the car fax. And now you're hear whining about getting screwed over...

I wouldn't say that he's whining, just stating the facts. He didn't do his homework, made a mistake, paying for it. I don't know the OP, but I doubt he posted this looking for sympathy. Hell, I give him credit for posting about it - I doubt I would have if it happened to me. If anything, it can serve as a reminder to anyone reading it to do their due diligence before buying a used vehicle. I'm sure he will next time around.

 

[McFinnigan]

Thanks everyone for the responses. The only reason I posted this was as a warning to other future buyers. No, I'm not whining, nor could I give two ####'s about sympathy. I made the choices that put me in this situation.

What is weird is the "seller" is still responding to my texts. I would assume someone in his situation would cut off communication. I haven't confronted him about it yet, I'm waiting until I talk to the attorney tomorrow before I do anything.

Streetcreaper- good advice.

Drcoffee- you're absolutely correct. I wasn't offended by your posts

BrandonF- go f### yourself pal

Brilliant- I didn't know about this, I will look into it

 

[jeremyc74]

Did you see the seller roll back the odometer? I sure didn't and I doubt the OP did either. He simply stated what was on the odometer. The seller may have been defrauded and never knew it. You would need to prove he was complict.

Its a tough thing to prove unless he admits he did it. And that wont happen.

You have to be joking! Tough to prove? Hardly. All they have to do is go back and speak with the last person it was titled with and find out what was on it when they sold it. You don't need to catch someone in the act to prove this. Is the guy going to tell the cops someone broke in and changes his OD while he slept? :lol:

Maybe this varies by state, but I've bought and sold vehicles in four states and in every one of them you have to disclose on the title if the OD reading isn't actual.

 

[BrandonF]

Thanks everyone for the responses. The only reason I posted this was as a warning to other future buyers. No, I'm not whining, nor could I give two ####'s about sympathy. I made the choices that put me in this situation.

What is weird is the "seller" is still responding to my texts. I would assume someone in his situation would cut off communication. I haven't confronted him about it yet, I'm waiting until I talk to the attorney tomorrow before I do anything.

Streetcreaper- good advice.

Drcoffee- you're absolutely correct. I wasn't offended by your posts

BrandonF- go f### yourself pal

Brilliant- I didn't know about this, I will look into it

Pretty unnecessary comment. I'm not the only one here giving this point of view on the topic. The yota drivers I know, myself included, would man up and figure it out. Why not confront him first without an attorney holding your hand?

These trucks run forever anyways. 223 xxx miles in september 2014… it's just getting broken in.

 

[A.Wilson013]

Pretty unnecessary comment. I'm not the only one here giving this point of view on the topic. The yota drivers I know, myself included, would man up and figure it out. Why not confront him first without an attorney holding your hand?

These trucks run forever anyways. 223 xxx miles in september 2014… it's just getting broken in.

While I agree that the comment wasn't needed, I also think a lawyer is the best course of action in this scenario. If he confronts the seller it puts him on the defensive so he can work to cover his tracks...

 

[McFinnigan]

Pretty unnecessary comment. I'm not the only one here giving this point of view on the topic. The yota drivers I know, myself included, would man up and figure it out. Why not confront him first without an attorney holding your hand?



These trucks run forever anyways. 223 xxx miles in september 2014… it's just getting broken in.

I have to disagree, you appear to be the only one here who is suggesting that I'm whining about my situation. Others have called me out about not seeing the glaring red flags, which I have owned. Yeah, I could have responded to you differently. But I didn't and I'm not sorry.

If I was within driving distance of the seller, yes I would go straight to him and handle the situation. But seeing as I'm not, I have decided to seek legal guidance. I don't think this is having my hand held, but if that's how you see it that's fine.

To your last point- completely agree, they will last forever. This is one of the reasons why I chose a 4Runner. I would have to disagree with you thought about "just getting broke in." I would think 150k would be a more realistic break in point. 230k would seem more like a halfway. I've seen a few (handful) of examples of runners going over 400k, but not enough to convince me that it is extremely common.

 

[jeremyc74]

Pretty unnecessary comment. I'm not the only one here giving this point of view on the topic. The yota drivers I know, myself included, would man up and figure it out. Why not confront him first without an attorney holding your hand?

These trucks run forever anyways. 223 xxx miles in september 2014… it's just getting broken in.

No more unnecessary than your original post, or this one. The notion that 75k miles makes no difference is absurd. When you say "man up and figure it out" it sounds to me like you really mean "bend over and take it". You think it's a good idea to drive two states away to confront someone who you probably couldn't even find? And even if the guy realizes he's busted and refunds the money he's just going to turn around and screw someone else the same way. The legal systems is the best way to handle this.