bofa
New member
As far as clothing penetration it's one of the main reasons I keep thinking about getting a FN Five-seveN. That round (5.7x28 SS197SR) will punch through body armor.
:thumb:
This one is high on my wish list as well.
Official T4R "Firearms" thread
- Thread starter d3cypher
- Start date
This one is high on my wish list as well.
bofa
New member
I'm not. I've yet to see any with consistent expansion that have not had issues with thicker clothing. It's even more important for us, being in colder climates. I try to keep an eye out for new developments. Hopefully we'll see more testing on these soon. The problem is there's a fine line between clothing penetration and armor penetration.
For now, I'm "settling" for the DoubleTap Bonded JHPs.
For argument sake, let's say I'm shooting a little ball of concrete. Either way it will knock anyone on their ass coming out of a .45. He who shoots first wins!
bofa
New member
You might be okay knocking them down. I want to make sure they don't get back up.
Dawg4Runner
New member
Not quite the level of Darkie's range day. Had to travel light since we were desert and mountain runnin'. We'll just call this "Mini range day". 
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JBecker
New member
Snake oil.
Ballistic gel isn't clear, I want to see this done on FBI gel. Considering how much it spread from a water balloon, I already know it's gonna struggle with barriers and heavy clothing.
Once the round has broken apart, you are left with a few shards that don't have much energy behind them, and maybe a 60 gr .38 projectile. I don't see this creating the temporary or permanent wound cavities needed to effectively stop a threat.
I'll stick to Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P, proven.
JBecker
New member
You shouldn't be. Not all rounds are created equal, and there are a lot of poor performers out there. Considering the majority of LE departments issue Ranger T or Speer Gold Dots, I'd take that as a hint. What happens when you shoot a guy wearing a 1" think jacket, or a layer or two of denim? Not all rounds will get you the correct level of expansion and you might as well be using FMJ ball ammo.
If you care to enlighten yourself, read up on the ballistic info and testing standards performed by the FBI's Firearm Training Unit as well as a trauma surgeon who goes by the handle DocGKR on various forums.
JBecker
New member
As far as clothing penetration it's one of the main reasons I keep thinking about getting a FN Five-seveN. That round (5.7x28 SS197SR) will punch through body armor.
:thumb:
Soft body armor, not plates. And remember, penetration is nothing without energy transfer or a wound cavity. This is where the 5.7 and 4.6 rounds struggle. Outside of the novelty, or if you played a lot of Counter Strike, a FN Five Seven pistol is kind of silly, and I certainly wouldn't carry one compared to a good 9mm pistol with good ammo.
I think you guys are misunderstanding me a little bit. I don't think that every round is equal and my selection of hp's aren't for stopping an armored mad man. They are chosen for the average guy wearing normal clothes, maybe a heavy jacket. Even if I have to use them on someone wearing 8 denim shirts, the round will still penetrate the clothes and do some damage to the tissue and organs. There is no such thing as a perfect round for every situation. Also keep in mind that the FBI and Leo's choose a round that will penetrate stuff that most if not all cc'ers will never have to shoot. They choose a round that will shoot through a windshield, walls, etc and still get an acceptable spread when it hits soft tissue. For us, odds re we aren't doing all of that. We will most likely shoot within 5-25 feet directly to a person. I'm not shooting into a fleeing car or someone on the other side of a door... Hopefully not shooting through a door. Never know but for my intent of self defense I would think that 99.9% chance if I ever had to shoot someone that it will be in direct view with no obstructions.
We tested some rounds several years ago that would not go through walls, it was made by federal. Our department ended up not using them, because they would not fire through a windshield (it's a very rough area). But one thing I noticed, even as the round basically turned to dust, it carried enough ken ethic energy to plow its way through a T-shirt and a vest and deep into the training dummy's core. (.40 rounds)
I cannot help but think the even with the round expanding upon impact with clothing fibers, it will carry enough energy to devastate the intended target.
Perhaps we need a test video of just how many layers of clothing can potentially save your life if you are shot. I think I still have an impact plate someplace. Where are myth busters when you need them.
I cannot help but think the even with the round expanding upon impact with clothing fibers, it will carry enough energy to devastate the intended target.
Perhaps we need a test video of just how many layers of clothing can potentially save your life if you are shot. I think I still have an impact plate someplace. Where are myth busters when you need them.
JBecker
New member
All I'm saying, is you would be amazed at what a thick coat, or denim can do to some rounds. And law enforcement shoots and self defense shoots are very similar more often than not. Crime rarely happens in an open field with little to no cover either. Just walk around your house sometime and look at all the barriers and cover available.
If you're paying $1-2 a round for self defense ammo, might as well be spending that on proven real world performance. You can spend days reading up on ballistic tests, but there are 2 main performers who consistently test with good results, Ranger T and Speer Gold Dot.
JBecker
New member
I'm not talking about rounds that get stopped by layers of clothing, I'm talking about rounds that turn into ball ammo because the hollow point gets packed with material and fails to expand.
Windshields are pretty good at clogging a round up and deflecting the round. I was surprised when shooting a windshield with an M4 and M855 steel core at the deflection it induced.
darkie3495
Moderator
You need more guns.
Seriously though, you pack all of that for a range day? I feel like I'm packing heavy when I bring more than two guns to the range. I'm kinda lazy though.
Ha. Not all of them are mine. Got together with a few friends yesterday for a little range time. For the spots we can drive up to, I just throw whatever I want to shoot that day in the rear drawer. For the hike in locations, it's normally my load out gear, rifle and handgun.
Sadly, I'm the only one in the group that brings a table so we all have to share.
RiFF RaFF
New member
Okay how about concealed carry holsters?
So far my favorite is my Crossbreed's, but I came across Sneaky Pete Holsters the other day, and this one has really peaked my interest. Just for the location, and ease of getting to my pistol.
My question - has anyone tried one? If so - how do you like it? Pros/Cons?
SneakyPete
:bash:
So far my favorite is my Crossbreed's, but I came across Sneaky Pete Holsters the other day, and this one has really peaked my interest. Just for the location, and ease of getting to my pistol.
My question - has anyone tried one? If so - how do you like it? Pros/Cons?
SneakyPete
:bash:
I have some insight when it comes to the bullet debate. Now, before I type this post and possibly get flamed for it, understand that what I am posting is first hand knowledge. Not some internet lore or keyboard commando puking up information he read somewhere. My opinions have been formed by experience and first hand knowledge, but again, they are my opinions!
As someone who spent quite a few years in law enforcement, 2 tours in the desert, and has also been shot himself, I have seen and felt what various bullets are capable of. In the beginning of my career (LEO), i worked 6 suicides and got to respond to a few GSW. I saw everything from the initial response to the coroner's reports with pictures. The only ones that really stood out were:
12 gauge 000 buck- male sat indian style in bed, put shotgun in mouth. Everything from ears up was gone. We were picking brain frag out of the ceiling. Absolutely devastating, gruesome wound.
.357 - male put pistol under chin in his backseat. Absolutely destroyed the cranial cavity. I've seen this same GSW with everything from 22 to 45 and nothing did as much damage as this (pistol wise). This round has consistently shown me to be devastating regardless of where it hits the body.
Now this takes me to my desert adventures, and the part that will undoubtedly chap some hides here. It didn't take long for me to develop a hatred for the 556 round, and the M4 in general. I was running convoy duty, and the guns rode in the up-armor way more than it was used. They collected un-godly amounts of dust in a very short time and were unreliable at best. I dont remember a single engagement where we didn't have at least one gun go down, (albeit temporarily). These were standard issue colts, or "milspec" as the fanboys like to call it. I was also an armorer at the time, and cannot tell you how many parts we had break in the 9 months I was there. Remember folks, these guns are not the best made, they are the cheapest made! But, I'm getting off subject.
Back to the ammo debate. The good old 556 round! This round has proven to me, and most everyone I know that actually used it, to be a joke. There are multiple accounts of the lackluster performance of this round since the wars started. I have personally seen hadjis take multiple rounds to the torso and not go down. Throw in a good cinderblock/clay/brick/wood wall, and you have even more problems. The problem we had mainly was over-penetration. I swear it was like a damn hot poker being thrown at them! Where did we come up with the idea that shooting small, under-nourished men with a high velocity 22 caliber bullet was a good idea? Oh yeah, add in the high doses of khat in them and it makes for a fun day. Upper chest/head or pelvis area was generally a takedown, anywhere else, you better shoot twice. Most of us left our M4s in the rack and grabbed the nicest, shortest AK we could find. Not only were they easier to handle in a vehicle without all the BS crap we had to attach to ours, but the it was day and night when it came to bullet it fired. I'm sure there are some vets on here that can tell you what a wound from a x39 looks like up close. It is not pretty. I can get into plenty more detail on this at a later time if you would like.
Now, onto personal defense ammo. I carried the Hornady Critical defense ammo for awhile, and tried my best to like it. I generally love Hornady's stuff, but in all of my testing, I couldn't get it to reliably expand. We shot everything from goats and hogs on my uncle's farm to water and ballistic gel, but couldn't get it to perfectly expand every time. This led me to talking with various members of my family (several retired Mil/Fed LEO). Of course the 357 came up a lot, but a few more were highly praised also. I carry 9mm or 45 exclusively so these are the caliber's we concentrated on. An older round that had a lot of good "street-cred" in 9mm was the Federal 9BPLE round. This round approached the 357 in terms of power and devastation, and as far as I know, still holds the record for greatest percentage of 1 shot stops in 9mm. Another, more modern bullet was the Winchester PDX1. This is the same basic bullet as the renowned "Black Talon" but with a less offensive name. I have intimate knowledge of this round because I have been shot by it! I wont get into the details, but I was shot with a 380 PDX1 round and I can tell you the bullet expanded perfectly and did an extreme amount of damage for such a small caliber. 2 surgeries and almost 2 years later, I still haven't totally recovered. Since then, I have extensively tested this round and it has performed perfectly every time, in all mediums! The only rounds I now carry are the PDX1 and occasionally the 9BPLE. (The wife carries a Kahr P380 with Corbon's DPX for a little extra penetration).
This has been my experience on the subject. I do not claim to be the burning bush of knowledge when it comes to guns and ammo, and I welcome debate on the subject. It has been a lifetime hobby/career of mine and I love talking about it!
As someone who spent quite a few years in law enforcement, 2 tours in the desert, and has also been shot himself, I have seen and felt what various bullets are capable of. In the beginning of my career (LEO), i worked 6 suicides and got to respond to a few GSW. I saw everything from the initial response to the coroner's reports with pictures. The only ones that really stood out were:
12 gauge 000 buck- male sat indian style in bed, put shotgun in mouth. Everything from ears up was gone. We were picking brain frag out of the ceiling. Absolutely devastating, gruesome wound.
.357 - male put pistol under chin in his backseat. Absolutely destroyed the cranial cavity. I've seen this same GSW with everything from 22 to 45 and nothing did as much damage as this (pistol wise). This round has consistently shown me to be devastating regardless of where it hits the body.
Now this takes me to my desert adventures, and the part that will undoubtedly chap some hides here. It didn't take long for me to develop a hatred for the 556 round, and the M4 in general. I was running convoy duty, and the guns rode in the up-armor way more than it was used. They collected un-godly amounts of dust in a very short time and were unreliable at best. I dont remember a single engagement where we didn't have at least one gun go down, (albeit temporarily). These were standard issue colts, or "milspec" as the fanboys like to call it. I was also an armorer at the time, and cannot tell you how many parts we had break in the 9 months I was there. Remember folks, these guns are not the best made, they are the cheapest made! But, I'm getting off subject.
Back to the ammo debate. The good old 556 round! This round has proven to me, and most everyone I know that actually used it, to be a joke. There are multiple accounts of the lackluster performance of this round since the wars started. I have personally seen hadjis take multiple rounds to the torso and not go down. Throw in a good cinderblock/clay/brick/wood wall, and you have even more problems. The problem we had mainly was over-penetration. I swear it was like a damn hot poker being thrown at them! Where did we come up with the idea that shooting small, under-nourished men with a high velocity 22 caliber bullet was a good idea? Oh yeah, add in the high doses of khat in them and it makes for a fun day. Upper chest/head or pelvis area was generally a takedown, anywhere else, you better shoot twice. Most of us left our M4s in the rack and grabbed the nicest, shortest AK we could find. Not only were they easier to handle in a vehicle without all the BS crap we had to attach to ours, but the it was day and night when it came to bullet it fired. I'm sure there are some vets on here that can tell you what a wound from a x39 looks like up close. It is not pretty. I can get into plenty more detail on this at a later time if you would like.
Now, onto personal defense ammo. I carried the Hornady Critical defense ammo for awhile, and tried my best to like it. I generally love Hornady's stuff, but in all of my testing, I couldn't get it to reliably expand. We shot everything from goats and hogs on my uncle's farm to water and ballistic gel, but couldn't get it to perfectly expand every time. This led me to talking with various members of my family (several retired Mil/Fed LEO). Of course the 357 came up a lot, but a few more were highly praised also. I carry 9mm or 45 exclusively so these are the caliber's we concentrated on. An older round that had a lot of good "street-cred" in 9mm was the Federal 9BPLE round. This round approached the 357 in terms of power and devastation, and as far as I know, still holds the record for greatest percentage of 1 shot stops in 9mm. Another, more modern bullet was the Winchester PDX1. This is the same basic bullet as the renowned "Black Talon" but with a less offensive name. I have intimate knowledge of this round because I have been shot by it! I wont get into the details, but I was shot with a 380 PDX1 round and I can tell you the bullet expanded perfectly and did an extreme amount of damage for such a small caliber. 2 surgeries and almost 2 years later, I still haven't totally recovered. Since then, I have extensively tested this round and it has performed perfectly every time, in all mediums! The only rounds I now carry are the PDX1 and occasionally the 9BPLE. (The wife carries a Kahr P380 with Corbon's DPX for a little extra penetration).
This has been my experience on the subject. I do not claim to be the burning bush of knowledge when it comes to guns and ammo, and I welcome debate on the subject. It has been a lifetime hobby/career of mine and I love talking about it!
bofa
New member
Okay how about concealed carry holsters?
So far my favorite is my Crossbreed's, but I came across Sneaky Pete Holsters the other day, and this one has really peaked my interest. Just for the location, and ease of getting to my pistol.
My question - has anyone tried one? If so - how do you like it? Pros/Cons?
SneakyPete
:bash:
Hmm.. maybe for a pocket pistol. I can't imagine how bulky that would be for a compact like a Glock or M&P. I'd probably still rather a IWB to keep the holster in place when you draw.
I've been rocking an OWB from Garrett lately and it's easily concealed by an untucked t-shirt and fleece/hoodie. I also bought an IWB from them but haven't felt the need to use it yet... likely will this Summer though.
ETA: Check out the opening on this thing... it basically forces you to draw from the trigger. Nope.
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bofa
New member
Give the 357 Sigma a shot and see how you like it.
I don't think the 5.56 was ever meant to be game-changer, right? It's always seemed more like a low-cost, mass-production, finesse round compared to larger calibers. I think the same can be said for the M4 vs AK. It started out as a cheapest bidder US made weapon that has gone through its fair share of growing pains.
Curious - which AKs did you guys have access to?
swapmeet
New member
[MENTION=103374]lastlaugh[/MENTION]
Thanks for sharing your expereinces. I've been a long time 7.62x39 fan (I assume that is what caliber AK you were going to) and I take a lot of flack for it.
My father uses one of these with a single stack 380. I find the size of the holster to be a little much for such a small pistol, but it works for him so I don't argue.
I carry a 1911 in a hand made IWB holster from Gun Leather, Concealment and Cowboy holsters, Azle, TX. The quality is by far the best i've seen. And after spending over $200 total on 3-4 cheap holsters, I've found that... like many things, spending the money up front for quality means you only have to spend once.
Thanks for sharing your expereinces. I've been a long time 7.62x39 fan (I assume that is what caliber AK you were going to) and I take a lot of flack for it.
Okay how about concealed carry holsters?
So far my favorite is my Crossbreed's, but I came across Sneaky Pete Holsters the other day, and this one has really peaked my interest. Just for the location, and ease of getting to my pistol.
My question - has anyone tried one? If so - how do you like it? Pros/Cons?
SneakyPete
:bash:
My father uses one of these with a single stack 380. I find the size of the holster to be a little much for such a small pistol, but it works for him so I don't argue.
I carry a 1911 in a hand made IWB holster from Gun Leather, Concealment and Cowboy holsters, Azle, TX. The quality is by far the best i've seen. And after spending over $200 total on 3-4 cheap holsters, I've found that... like many things, spending the money up front for quality means you only have to spend once.
