Official T4R "Firearms" thread

[MENTION=80047]bofa[/MENTION] -
Yes sir, I have used the 357sig. I owned a glock 33 for several years, and quite like the design and performance of the round. I just couldn't justify keeping it due to price and availability of ammo. Also, as much as I liked it, there wasn't a large enough difference (to me anyways) between the Federal 9BPLE +P+ and the 357 sig. The ballistics are almost identical, but the 357sig was 3-4 times the money for ammo when you could find it. Granted, I don't think Federal still makes the 9BPLE round, and it may be harder and harder to come by. (Luckily, I have about 10 boxes stockpiled!)

I also saw a previous mention of the Ranger-T line of ammo. It has been one of the few bullets that I have seen perform perfectly, every time, in every caliber. I highly recommend it!

As far as the AKs, I mostly saw Romanians. But a few Maadi and Polish Tantals were found also. Most of them were pretty messed up. Homemade grips and taped together, but a few very nice ones popped up occasionally, and we grabbed em!
 
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[MENTION=80047]bofa[/MENTION] -
Yes sir, I have used the 357sig. I owned a glock 33 for several years, and quite like the design and performance of the round. I just couldn't justify keeping it due to price and availability of ammo. Also, as much as I liked it, there wasn't a large enough difference (to me anyways) between the Federal 9BPLE +P+ and the 357 sig. The ballistics are almost identical, but the 357sig was 3-4 times the money for ammo when you could find it. Granted, I don't think Federal still makes the 9BPLE round, and it may be harder and harder to come by. (Luckily, I have about 10 boxes stockpiled!)

I also saw a previous mention of the Ranger-T line of ammo. It has been one of the few bullets that I have seen perform perfectly, every time, in every caliber. I highly recommend it!

Ah, good. The current prices are in line with 45, which I was used to buying, but yes, availability can be challenging, especially for range ammo. Of course when I bought it, all ammo was hard to find. :D It's gotten better since this time last year though. I particularly like the high velocity it provides while still maintaining decent accuracy, at least in the M&P I've shot.

The problem I've encountered with 9mm +P is that not all guns, particularly some popular compacts and sub-compacts, are built to handle hot loads with repeated use.
 
I have some insight when it comes to the bullet debate. Now, before I type this post and possibly get flamed for it, understand that what I am posting is first hand knowledge. Not some internet lore or keyboard commando puking up information he read somewhere. My opinions have been formed by experience and first hand knowledge, but again, they are my opinions!
As someone who spent quite a few years in law enforcement, 2 tours in the desert, and has also been shot himself, I have seen and felt what various bullets are capable of. In the beginning of my career (LEO), i worked 6 suicides and got to respond to a few GSW. I saw everything from the initial response to the coroner's reports with pictures. The only ones that really stood out were:

12 gauge 000 buck- male sat indian style in bed, put shotgun in mouth. Everything from ears up was gone. We were picking brain frag out of the ceiling. Absolutely devastating, gruesome wound.

.357 - male put pistol under chin in his backseat. Absolutely destroyed the cranial cavity. I've seen this same GSW with everything from 22 to 45 and nothing did as much damage as this (pistol wise). This round has consistently shown me to be devastating regardless of where it hits the body.

Now this takes me to my desert adventures, and the part that will undoubtedly chap some hides here. It didn't take long for me to develop a hatred for the 556 round, and the M4 in general. I was running convoy duty, and the guns rode in the up-armor way more than it was used. They collected un-godly amounts of dust in a very short time and were unreliable at best. I dont remember a single engagement where we didn't have at least one gun go down, (albeit temporarily). These were standard issue colts, or "milspec" as the fanboys like to call it. I was also an armorer at the time, and cannot tell you how many parts we had break in the 9 months I was there. Remember folks, these guns are not the best made, they are the cheapest made! But, I'm getting off subject.
Back to the ammo debate. The good old 556 round! This round has proven to me, and most everyone I know that actually used it, to be a joke. There are multiple accounts of the lackluster performance of this round since the wars started. I have personally seen hadjis take multiple rounds to the torso and not go down. Throw in a good cinderblock/clay/brick/wood wall, and you have even more problems. The problem we had mainly was over-penetration. I swear it was like a damn hot poker being thrown at them! Where did we come up with the idea that shooting small, under-nourished men with a high velocity 22 caliber bullet was a good idea? Oh yeah, add in the high doses of khat in them and it makes for a fun day. Upper chest/head or pelvis area was generally a takedown, anywhere else, you better shoot twice. Most of us left our M4s in the rack and grabbed the nicest, shortest AK we could find. Not only were they easier to handle in a vehicle without all the BS crap we had to attach to ours, but the it was day and night when it came to bullet it fired. I'm sure there are some vets on here that can tell you what a wound from a x39 looks like up close. It is not pretty. I can get into plenty more detail on this at a later time if you would like.

Now, onto personal defense ammo. I carried the Hornady Critical defense ammo for awhile, and tried my best to like it. I generally love Hornady's stuff, but in all of my testing, I couldn't get it to reliably expand. We shot everything from goats and hogs on my uncle's farm to water and ballistic gel, but couldn't get it to perfectly expand every time. This led me to talking with various members of my family (several retired Mil/Fed LEO). Of course the 357 came up a lot, but a few more were highly praised also. I carry 9mm or 45 exclusively so these are the caliber's we concentrated on. An older round that had a lot of good "street-cred" in 9mm was the Federal 9BPLE round. This round approached the 357 in terms of power and devastation, and as far as I know, still holds the record for greatest percentage of 1 shot stops in 9mm. Another, more modern bullet was the Winchester PDX1. This is the same basic bullet as the renowned "Black Talon" but with a less offensive name. I have intimate knowledge of this round because I have been shot by it! I wont get into the details, but I was shot with a 380 PDX1 round and I can tell you the bullet expanded perfectly and did an extreme amount of damage for such a small caliber. 2 surgeries and almost 2 years later, I still haven't totally recovered. Since then, I have extensively tested this round and it has performed perfectly every time, in all mediums! The only rounds I now carry are the PDX1 and occasionally the 9BPLE. (The wife carries a Kahr P380 with Corbon's DPX for a little extra penetration).

This has been my experience on the subject. I do not claim to be the burning bush of knowledge when it comes to guns and ammo, and I welcome debate on the subject. It has been a lifetime hobby/career of mine and I love talking about it!

Thank you for the first hand information.

Your post confirms that my 'go-to' CCW will continue to be my Glock 32 (.357 SIG) for camping/wheeling..etc. Second CCW will continue to be my Kimber Crimson Ultra Carry II .45 ACP. With the Kimber I may not have as many bullets in the gun, but all it will take is one well placed shot to slow down/stop anyone who intends my wife or myself harm. Along with those two I always have my SIG P238 .380 ACP as a well concealed back-up, or for those times where it's my only CCW.

As for my 'go-to' weapon of choice to have within easy reach when in our vehicles it's going to be my Springfield full size 1911 A1 .45 ACP.

Just can't beat the tried and true 1911 style locked and cocked weapons for reliability, and stopping power.

For home defense - shotguns (both .20 and .12 gauge), and I always have one of my pistols within easy reach.

:gun5:
 
I have some insight when it comes to the bullet debate. Now, before I type this post and possibly get flamed for it, understand that what I am posting is first hand knowledge. Not some internet lore or keyboard commando puking up information he read somewhere. My opinions have been formed by experience and first hand knowledge, but again, they are my opinions!
As someone who spent quite a few years in law enforcement, 2 tours in the desert, and has also been shot himself, I have seen and felt what various bullets are capable of. In the beginning of my career (LEO), i worked 6 suicides and got to respond to a few GSW. I saw everything from the initial response to the coroner's reports with pictures. The only ones that really stood out were:

12 gauge 000 buck- male sat indian style in bed, put shotgun in mouth. Everything from ears up was gone. We were picking brain frag out of the ceiling. Absolutely devastating, gruesome wound.

.357 - male put pistol under chin in his backseat. Absolutely destroyed the cranial cavity. I've seen this same GSW with everything from 22 to 45 and nothing did as much damage as this (pistol wise). This round has consistently shown me to be devastating regardless of where it hits the body.

Now this takes me to my desert adventures, and the part that will undoubtedly chap some hides here. It didn't take long for me to develop a hatred for the 556 round, and the M4 in general. I was running convoy duty, and the guns rode in the up-armor way more than it was used. They collected un-godly amounts of dust in a very short time and were unreliable at best. I dont remember a single engagement where we didn't have at least one gun go down, (albeit temporarily). These were standard issue colts, or "milspec" as the fanboys like to call it. I was also an armorer at the time, and cannot tell you how many parts we had break in the 9 months I was there. Remember folks, these guns are not the best made, they are the cheapest made! But, I'm getting off subject.
Back to the ammo debate. The good old 556 round! This round has proven to me, and most everyone I know that actually used it, to be a joke. There are multiple accounts of the lackluster performance of this round since the wars started. I have personally seen hadjis take multiple rounds to the torso and not go down. Throw in a good cinderblock/clay/brick/wood wall, and you have even more problems. The problem we had mainly was over-penetration. I swear it was like a damn hot poker being thrown at them! Where did we come up with the idea that shooting small, under-nourished men with a high velocity 22 caliber bullet was a good idea? Oh yeah, add in the high doses of khat in them and it makes for a fun day. Upper chest/head or pelvis area was generally a takedown, anywhere else, you better shoot twice. Most of us left our M4s in the rack and grabbed the nicest, shortest AK we could find. Not only were they easier to handle in a vehicle without all the BS crap we had to attach to ours, but the it was day and night when it came to bullet it fired. I'm sure there are some vets on here that can tell you what a wound from a x39 looks like up close. It is not pretty. I can get into plenty more detail on this at a later time if you would like.

Now, onto personal defense ammo. I carried the Hornady Critical defense ammo for awhile, and tried my best to like it. I generally love Hornady's stuff, but in all of my testing, I couldn't get it to reliably expand. We shot everything from goats and hogs on my uncle's farm to water and ballistic gel, but couldn't get it to perfectly expand every time. This led me to talking with various members of my family (several retired Mil/Fed LEO). Of course the 357 came up a lot, but a few more were highly praised also. I carry 9mm or 45 exclusively so these are the caliber's we concentrated on. An older round that had a lot of good "street-cred" in 9mm was the Federal 9BPLE round. This round approached the 357 in terms of power and devastation, and as far as I know, still holds the record for greatest percentage of 1 shot stops in 9mm. Another, more modern bullet was the Winchester PDX1. This is the same basic bullet as the renowned "Black Talon" but with a less offensive name. I have intimate knowledge of this round because I have been shot by it! I wont get into the details, but I was shot with a 380 PDX1 round and I can tell you the bullet expanded perfectly and did an extreme amount of damage for such a small caliber. 2 surgeries and almost 2 years later, I still haven't totally recovered. Since then, I have extensively tested this round and it has performed perfectly every time, in all mediums! The only rounds I now carry are the PDX1 and occasionally the 9BPLE. (The wife carries a Kahr P380 with Corbon's DPX for a little extra penetration).

This has been my experience on the subject. I do not claim to be the burning bush of knowledge when it comes to guns and ammo, and I welcome debate on the subject. It has been a lifetime hobby/career of mine and I love talking about it!

Thanks for all the info. I'm still trying to decide on a platform to carry on my person, and am just starting to do research and learn about ballistics. Just curious, what branch were you in?

Ah, good. The current prices are in line with 45, which I was used to buying, but yes, availability can be challenging, especially for range ammo. Of course when I bought it, all ammo was hard to find. :D It's gotten better since this time last year though. I particularly like the high velocity it provides while still maintaining decent accuracy, at least in the M&P I've shot.

The problem I've encountered with 9mm +P is that not all guns, particularly some popular compacts and sub-compacts, are built to handle hot loads with repeated use.

Do you know if 9mm Glocks can handle these loads for extended use?
 
I don't get hung up on a particular ammo for defense. I figure even ball is better than nothing at all.

in fact, I expect that pretty much any attacker that gets a couple leaky holes in his chest, no matter how insignificant, hes going to change his mind very quickly. just the fact that hes no longer dealing with a HELPLESS victim will usually be enough to sway them.
most are after an EASY target.
 
I am Active Duty AF, but have spent much of my time in the AFSOC/SOCOM community. As for the glock, yes, the will devour +P+ ammo all day with no problem. I carry CZ and Glock pistols exclusively. Most of the the well known brands will handle +P ammo consistently, and some will handle +P+ fine also.

I know Glock, CZ, Sig, and Springfields handle +P+ consistently. I have heard FNs will also.

My experience with S&W M&P series pistols showed no problems with +P if used occasionally. +P+ gave me enough problems to keep me from using it tho. I've heard good things about Bersa, and used +P ammo in them a few times myself with no problems. Ruger LCP and LC9 have been very unreliable with +P and +p+ ammo. (Mainly Slide lock issues)

Other makes I have heard about, but not used first hand:
HK - no experience with +P+ but should work fine with +P
Kel-Tec/Taurus - I would not use +P ammo with these guns.
 
Do you know if 9mm Glocks can handle these loads for extended use?

AFAIK, Glocks are fine with +P. They disclaim that its fine so long as it meets SAAMI specs. Not all +P and most +P+ do not.

One of the reasons I considered the 357 Sig is because you can get higher velocity with standard loads.
 
[MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION]
I agree with you for the most part. Most thugs are not going to attack people in areas where they know guns are a probability. And when they do get confronted, usually the sight of the gun itself is enough to deter their actions. The ammo/caliber tho, I believe, is a huge factor in your decision to carry. I had all these idea about what I would do, and how I would react if I was ever shot, and none of them were true. I didn't hear or feel the gunshot. My adrenaline took over and it was several seconds before I felt any pain or even started bleeding. My training kicked it and I reacted without even thinking about it.
Since it happened, I have talked to several other gunshot victims who stated the same things. The only difference was, the guy shot with bigger calibers definitely knew they were shot! My grandfather was a police officer for Metro Atlanta PD in the 1960s. He was shot twice thru the door of his patrol car with a 357 while responding to a burglary call. He said it felt like he had been hit with a sledgehammer. The impact knocked him partially into the next seat. His partner was shot with a 38 in the side while chasing the suspect, and didnt realize he was hit till afterwards. Granted, adrenaline plays a HUGE part in a person's reaction to trauma, but the hydrostatic shock of a large bullet hitting you seems to take all the fight out of people.
 
Thank you for the first hand information.

Your post confirms that my 'go-to' CCW will continue to be my Glock 32 (.357 SIG) for camping/wheeling..etc. Second CCW will continue to be my Kimber Crimson Ultra Carry II .45 ACP. With the Kimber I may not have as many bullets in the gun, but all it will take is one well placed shot to slow down/stop anyone who intends my wife or myself harm. Along with those two I always have my SIG P238 .380 ACP as a well concealed back-up, or for those times where it's my only CCW.

As for my 'go-to' weapon of choice to have within easy reach when in our vehicles it's going to be my Springfield full size 1911 A1 .45 ACP.

Just can't beat the tried and true 1911 style locked and cocked weapons for reliability, and stopping power.

For home defense - shotguns (both .20 and .12 gauge), and I always have one of my pistols within easy reach.

:gun5:

Good choices sir! The 1911 debate has been a huge deal at my family gatherings for decades. I am not a huge fan of 1911s but I do own them. I hold Mr John Moses Browning in very high regard, and own a lot of his creations. When it comes to the 1911 tho, I only have 2. In its original form, the 1911A1 is a great gun. Big, heavy, loose, and capable of firing anything you put in it. The problem is when companies try to "accurize" it. They tighten all the specs, put all these fancy fitted parts on it and make a beautiful gun. The problem is, when you tighten those tolerances, you make the gun unreliable. I have owned 2 kimbers and 1 Springfield. They were beautiful range guns, but I wouldn't bet my life on them. I have never seen a kimber that was reliable..... ever. Every one I have shot has had jamming/FTE issues (and no, I wasn't limp wristing it). Please, don't take this the wrong way. I am not saying they are not reliable. I am saying "I" have never seen a reliable one. I have a friend who is a die-hard kimber fan who argues this with me almost daily. Every time we go to the range together, he has issues. (But its always something else's fault! Lol).

I think the 1911 is an outstanding pistol, and always will hold the title as the most influential handgun in history. However, I believe Mr. Browning realized he could make a better gun, and did, with the High-Power. It has everything I love about the 1911 and nothing I dont. The addition of SA/DA greatly improved the design in my opinion. Then along comes CZ in the 1970s and improved it even further. The CZ75 is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of handgun design. (All the good parts of the Browning design with "slide in frame" added in for good measure). I remember my uncle, (retired US Marshall) and a bunch of his Marshall buddies going up to Canada in the early 1980s to get one. They paid astronomical prices for them back then; around 2k$ each. But there was no other gun like them, and outside of the very good copies of the design, there still isn't.
 
AFAIK, Glocks are fine with +P. They disclaim that its fine so long as it meets SAAMI specs. Not all +P and most +P+ do not.

One of the reasons I considered the 357 Sig is because you can get higher velocity with standard loads.

[MENTION=80047]bofa[/MENTION]

You sir, (and the other guys i have been talking to on here) are a breath of fresh air! I enjoy weapon and ammo discussions with people who do their research and don't spout hot air. I respect anyone's decision when they have put in the time and research to back their opinions. Who knew I would have to come to a 4runner forum to find like minded individuals!
 
[MENTION=80047]bofa[/MENTION]

You sir, (and the other guys i have been talking to on here) are a breath of fresh air! I enjoy weapon and ammo discussions with people who do their research and don't spout hot air. I respect anyone's decision when they have put in the time and research to back their opinions. Who knew I would have to come to a 4runner forum to find like minded individuals!

There's a pretty solid group on gun enthusiasts here. We'd probably have a hell of a time together at a range.
 
I would love a range days with you fellas! You would have to come down to TX tho......CO gun laws seem to be getting out of hand!

Very true, though we'll see how this next vote turns out. The airport here is a bit ridiculous too when traveling with a firearm. You'd think I was transporting biohazards or something.

that would be an expensive day!

Most fun days are. :biggrin2:
 
Some good reading material:

The USA?s M4 Carbine Controversy

also, If you haven't already seen it, goto youtube and search for "Tales of the Gun". It was a really good series done by the history channel and is no longer aired. I have the entire boxed set if anyone interested. The episode on John Browning is particularly good.
 
Regardless of personal opinion about the M16/M4 and the 5.56 cartridge, we have learned a lot since the first Gulf War with them and their operation in desert conditions. The military was slow to implement many changes to gear they issued, training, and ammunition. The fact the IC testing showed marginal improvements at a very high cost is what is killing it. Is an HK416 better in adverse conditions? Slightly, but it has it's own problems as well. And I don't care what it is, you get enough sand in the action and you can stop anything.

I think the SOPMOD Block II program is pretty much the best thing going for an M4 weapon at this time. And MK262 ammo is a great hadji stopper.
 
Good choices sir! The 1911 debate has been a huge deal at my family gatherings for decades. I am not a huge fan of 1911s but I do own them. I hold Mr John Moses Browning in very high regard, and own a lot of his creations. When it comes to the 1911 tho, I only have 2. In its original form, the 1911A1 is a great gun. Big, heavy, loose, and capable of firing anything you put in it. The problem is when companies try to "accurize" it. They tighten all the specs, put all these fancy fitted parts on it and make a beautiful gun. The problem is, when you tighten those tolerances, you make the gun unreliable. I have owned 2 kimbers and 1 Springfield. They were beautiful range guns, but I wouldn't bet my life on them. I have never seen a kimber that was reliable..... ever. Every one I have shot has had jamming/FTE issues (and no, I wasn't limp wristing it). Please, don't take this the wrong way. I am not saying they are not reliable. I am saying "I" have never seen a reliable one. I have a friend who is a die-hard kimber fan who argues this with me almost daily. Every time we go to the range together, he has issues. (But its always something else's fault! Lol).

I think the 1911 is an outstanding pistol, and always will hold the title as the most influential handgun in history. However, I believe Mr. Browning realized he could make a better gun, and did, with the High-Power. It has everything I love about the 1911 and nothing I dont. The addition of SA/DA greatly improved the design in my opinion. Then along comes CZ in the 1970s and improved it even further. The CZ75 is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of handgun design. (All the good parts of the Browning design with "slide in frame" added in for good measure). I remember my uncle, (retired US Marshall) and a bunch of his Marshall buddies going up to Canada in the early 1980s to get one. They paid astronomical prices for them back then; around 2k$ each. But there was no other gun like them, and outside of the very good copies of the design, there still isn't.

When I first bought my Kimber the first 1000 shots were hit or miss. After the magic 1000 round make - works first time, everytime now. Even with bulk .45 range ammo. Would I trust it? Yuppers. Very reliable after the 1000 round break-in period.

As for a T4R.ORG range day? Oh hell yeah! Texas sounds good. Colorado is getting to sound more and more like the left coast.

:ak472:
 

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