Official T4R "Firearms" thread

Personally not a fan of index finger retention release. If I have a retention device it's a thumb break. Although mostly I stick to Crossbreed holsters and the like nowadays.

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hm, maybe im just terrible at searching, or don't know the correct terms to search. but all the thumb break holsters im finding seem to be very bulky.

do you ever catch the release on anything?
 
opinions on Serpa holsters?

im strongly considering getting one. I have read about ND's during draws due to improper finger placement. any other reasons not to use one?

Under stress (like drawing a firearm to defend you life) there's a lot of changes going on inside the body, a couple of which are decreased fine distal motor skills and tensing of muscles, this can cause your finger to curl in as you press the serpa button and when the weapon clears the holster it can curl into the trigger guard and press the trigger. There are also reported issues from the military of mud and junk malign their way into the holster and seizing the button from moving. Having said that I owned (not any more) a serpa for a couple years never had an issue. There's so many options on the market that I would just avoid them. Safariland makes a good active retention system that's much safer.
 
Under stress (like drawing a firearm to defend you life) there's a lot of changes going on inside the body, a couple of which are decreased fine distal motor skills and tensing of muscles, this can cause your finger to curl in as you press the serpa button and when the weapon clears the holster it can curl into the trigger guard and press the trigger. There are also reported issues from the military of mud and junk malign their way into the holster and seizing the button from moving. Having said that I owned (not any more) a serpa for a couple years never had an issue. There's so many options on the market that I would just avoid them. Safariland makes a good active retention system that's much safer.
I looked at those. it and others is what made me ask the question above. does the release ever get caught on anything?
they seem to be very bulky, and overly complex for a holster.
 
I looked at those. it and others is what made me ask the question above. does the release ever get caught on anything?
they seem to be very bulky, and overly complex for a holster.

No sarcasm here but serious question, do you have a need for active retention? I only ask because anything with active retention is going to be bulkier. There are really good kydex options out there like the Raven phantoms which are my personal favorite owb. But back to the actual question no the safariland are absolutely good to go. They've gotten a lot of use from military and police, very durable and fast into action. Check out gcode as well. It really all depends on your intended use.
 
No sarcasm here but serious question, do you have a need for active retention? I only ask because anything with active retention is going to be bulkier. There are really good kydex options out there like the Raven phantoms which are my personal favorite owb. But back to the actual question no the safariland are absolutely good to go. They've gotten a lot of use from military and police, very durable and fast into action. Check out gcode as well. It really all depends on your intended use.

im not sure its ever a question of NEED. do I need to carry a gun every day? probably not, but I do.

im fairly active, and I open carry daily. I spend a lot of time in the mtns, hiking/hunting, and on my dirt bike.
my current holster was somewhat of a rushed purchase. just something that would "do the job".

I am now looking for something a bit better. but, I cant get over how big and bulky, and complex some of the thumb break holsters are.
which is part of my draw towards the serpa/fobus and the like. they are slim(ish) and still have active retention.

I am very aware of my surroundings, and doubt that anyone would ever be able to get behind/close enough to me to access my pistol. it would still be nice to have another layer of protection. I also have 2 locks on my front door. same idea..
so no, I don't think I NEED it. but, I would like to have it.

they aren't that expensive, I may just buy one, and see how I like it. then move on to the next if it doesn't work out.
 
im not sure its ever a question of NEED. do I need to carry a gun every day? probably not, but I do.

im fairly active, and I open carry daily. I spend a lot of time in the mtns, hiking/hunting, and on my dirt bike.
my current holster was somewhat of a rushed purchase. just something that would "do the job".

I am now looking for something a bit better. but, I cant get over how big and bulky, and complex some of the thumb break holsters are.
which is part of my draw towards the serpa/fobus and the like. they are slim(ish) and still have active retention.

I am very aware of my surroundings, and doubt that anyone would ever be able to get behind/close enough to me to access my pistol. it would still be nice to have another layer of protection. I also have 2 locks on my front door. same idea..
so no, I don't think I NEED it. but, I would like to have it.

they aren't that expensive, I may just buy one, and see how I like it. then move on to the next if it doesn't work out.

No open carry in my state unless hunting fishing or shooting for sport so out and about every day I conceal carry a glock 19 rmr appendix, so a gun grab would be extremely easy to defend and not end well for them, if they even noticed the slight printing. But I agree, open carry in public active retention is basically a must have, although for hunting and hiking the Raven owb is absolutely perfect but there are slightly slimmer less bulky models from both gcode and safariland that still provide active retention. If you do decide to go with the Blackhawk tho just train that retention release method a ton, pressing with ur finger completely extended so it doesn't have the tendency to roll inwards. Also be aware a lot of top level instructors (Larry vickers, Kyle Defoor, pat McNamara and others) have banned the Serpas from their classes.
 
oh, yeh that's much better.

see, it must have been an issue with what I was searching for. the ones I was finding had a lot more going on. that looks pretty good.
 
Nothing wrong with serpas for 99% of average joes. I have a couple for dicking around at matches or out hunting. No reason to use anything but a $25 holster.

For the money and retention, you can't really beat a serpa.

Now, if you're open carrying in public, or you carry for work, or you're using it harder and dirtier than 99% of average joes, then yes, you should move up to the $60+ SL ALS or similar quality.
 
The Serpa holster has known inherent issues with its design:

#1) Poor design of trigger finger button to release gun from retention. With proper trigger finger discipline and training this is not an issue, but it is non the less a poor design.

The design lends itself to the motion of riding your trigger finger into the trigger guard- operator error yes, but the design makes it much easier to do this and for the operator to have an AD.

#2) Small particles can get stuck in the release mechanism causing your firearm to be locked into place. Another poor design choice, especially for those in the outdoors who are around a lot of dirt/twigs/outdoor debris. I have seen this happen on 3 occasions, it was a small rock fragment once and small twigs the other times. Had to disassemble in all 3 incidences.

#3) You can insert your firearm into the holster backwards and it is then locked into place until partial disassembly of the holster is conducted. Again, another issue with a poor design.

#4) The retention hood serves no purpose. A good hard yank on the gun (with the serpa button pushed) will pull the gun up and through the rubber hood without the need to deactivate the thumb latch. This retention feature is nothing but show.

#5) The screws that attach the holster to the belt loop work loose in very short order. Now, most people will occasionally check their gear and notice this kind of stuff but some won't.

#6) I've seen it time and time again where someone with a serpa at the range failed to disengage the lock, thus tugging the holster and their belt halfway up their torso. I could clearly see the most common response to this problem was being more aggressive with an inward press of the button during the drawstroke. That's a recipe for an AD.


With #3 some Serpa's do it and some don't, but it is a known issue. I know some folks will not understand why a gun would be inserted backwards at all- It's a common (and effective) means of securing the pistol when you need two hands but only have one available due to injury, etc.

Think reload, malfunction clearance, etc. While other techniques are taught in some places, your holster is always there and always ready to hold a gun regardless of your stance, position, etc.


It's also a technique that minimizes opportunity for students to cross body parts with the muzzle. Such cautions are especially prudent with basic and lowest common denominator students, and/or where training time is minimal. Using joints (behind the knee, armpit, etc), shoving the gun in the waistband, kneeling or stepping on the gun, are other alternatives. Each has its own merits and liabilities.

Shooter error magnified by a bad holster design is a recipe for an AD.

The only job your trigger finger should have is to pull the trigger. Creating a release button that can cause bad muscle memory and possible AD's is not a good idea.

If you like them, rock'em. But be aware of the issues inherent with the design.

If you're going to take a training or CCW course, email ahead of time to make sure they allow them. Most courses I have taken DO NOT allow them.

Also, many agencies have banned them from use due to the inherent issues and poor design.

For level III retention the SafariLand ALS is definitely the way to go. Yeah it is approx $80 and the Serpa $30, but you get what you pay for.

Some reading material on the SERPA:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/86120086563/p/3

Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster
 
oh, yeh that's much better.

see, it must have been an issue with what I was searching for. the ones I was finding had a lot more going on. that looks pretty good.

I don't believe you've mentioned what type of pistol you're searching a holster for. I would make different suggestions based on the actual firearm your carrying.

as far as the thumb breaks being bulky I typically take the thumb break guard off.

I use this 5.11 thumb release holster for my glock
5.11 Tactical ThumbDrive Gun Holster | Official 5.11 Site
, but I use a horsehide Kramer holster for my dan wesson 1911.
 
I don't believe you've mentioned what type of pistol you're searching a holster for. I would make different suggestions based on the actual firearm your carrying.

as far as the thumb breaks being bulky I typically take the thumb break guard off.

I use this 5.11 thumb release holster for my glock
5.11 Tactical ThumbDrive Gun Holster | Official 5.11 Site
, but I use a horsehide Kramer holster for my dan wesson 1911.

you're right, I never did.
my carry weapon is an HK usp .40 compact.

I went ahead and ordered that safariland holster linked above. we will see how it works. it may yet be a bit more bulky than im wanting but I have to start somewhere.
without being able to put my hands on them, its hard to know
 
False. check out bravo concealment, g-code or pretty much anyone other than Blackhawk.

Look, if you're going to make statements like that, you should probably understand the whole issue before just throwing out your pet brands and saying everything else is crap. That kind of attitude is rampant on the gun forums, especially with the geardos.

Bravo is just pancake kydex, and not comparable to a level II retention serpa. Available with a cumbersome and bulky hood system.

GCode is a bulky hood system.

Both are stupid expensive.

For certain things for most average joes, a serpa is perfectly adequate at a great price.
 
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you're right, I never did.
my carry weapon is an HK usp .40 compact.

I went ahead and ordered that safariland holster linked above. we will see how it works. it may yet be a bit more bulky than im wanting but I have to start somewhere.
without being able to put my hands on them, its hard to know

from what I've read and seen from safariland I doubt you'll be disappointed. I leaned that way for my dan wesson, I only questioned some of the sued liners. I was afraid dirt would hold in the sued an damage the finish on the 1911. After getting the Horsehide from Kramer i was quick to realize it didnt matter.. dirts going to stick to anything, and being completly honest I developed the first opinion of sued lined holsters from forums. You'll never know what you like until you put your hands on it.
 
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Look, if you're going to make statements like that, you should probably understand the whole issue before just throwing out your pet brands and saying everything else is crap. That kind of attitude is rampant on the gun forums, especially with the geardos.

Bravo is just pancake kydex, and not comparable to a level II retention serpa. Available with a cumbersome and bulky hood system.

GCode is a bulky hood system.

Both are stupid expensive.

For certain things for most average joes, a serpa is perfectly adequate at a great price.

calm down high speed. I have no pet brands, I just use what tends to work in my line of work. I never said serpas suck. although the button has failed me in a time of need in an austere environment. The button failure is why the military has steered away and police forces I believe already have. Most police forces in South Texas as well as many across the nation are going with the level 2 bravo concealment which is not a pancake holster. I believe the level 2 serpa you are speaking of is the "sportser" holster for around $30 vs their level 2 "duty" which is much more expensive and better all around. you are correct that most average joes the serpa is fine. in fact most average joes do not need to carry a firearm. however, we have a right to carry for that small chance we may need to draw our weapons. So if we are relying our lives on it why not get the best we can.

by the way, here is a study those interested in the serpa holster may want to read.
https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

Sincerely,

Geardo
 

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