Oil Changes Are Ridiculous!

[graciedad04]

AT this point no I have not paid for an oil analysis. At some point in the future I might have one done. But I have no doubt that I could run MINE to 5k with no problem what so ever. 10k in my personal and professional opinion is too far. Like I said I have been a tech for over 14 years. I have watched cars develop issues over that time. Even ones that use factory 0w20. I have 3 customers that I can name off the top of my head that at around 130 to 160k now change their oil at about the 5k mark. They used to change it at 15% like manufacturer recommended(this is typically around the 10k mark) but now they change it when the low oil level light comes on. How good do you feel that is on the engine to go that long? And if you read in most owners manuals the recommendations carefully it shows a schedule for normal and then for severe duty. Read qualification for severe duty and you might be surprised to see what is says is severe. I would bet 90% of us on here are classified that way.

But like I already said. You can do whatever you feel is best and I can as well. That is the benefit of living in free countries.[emoji106]

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[northcoast]

10k in my personal and professional opinion is too far.

This is completely baseless for this engine - I did a google search for 5th gen engine problems and not much comes up, let alone anything at all in regards to a 10k mile OCI. Head on over to BITOG... several petroleum engineers over there that will tell you differently about your opinions on the need for 3k mile intervals with 0w-20 oil.

 

[Jetboy]

Actually I did 11 in 30k. I did the 1st at 1k miles 2nd at 3k and then every 3k after. I want that engine to be able to be torn down at a million and still look brand new. I have been a tech for 14 years I know how cars look at 200k after you spend the life of them going to 15% on the oil life counter. Generally a car that goes 10k on oil changes by the time it gets to 200 to 250k will burn oil because they didn't change the oil often enough. Oil breaks down over time. I don't trade cars often so I'd rather take care of what I own. If I traded every 100 to 150k I'd probably change my oil every 10k. But I don't, so I'll keep changing mine every 3k. But that's me personally. And as far as time. It takes me about 20 mins and I don't STRIP out the freaking skid plates like the toyota dealer did at the 20k oil change for me. LOL. I used them for the free oil changes and tire rotations but did the ones in between myself and have done the ones since myself.

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The million mile tundra was still within spec on the internals when Toyota pulled it apart. It scored a 99 out of 100 on the tests that they use for new engine assemblies. That was with 10k mile oil changes. The reality is that a lot has changed since the 80's. Everything from metallurgy of engine components to oil quality has improved. It doesn't increase the life of your engine to change it more often.

To put this in perspective - you'll waste more money over the next 10 years in oil alone than the cost of a factory new long block.

I'm concerned that as a mechanic you're likely misleading your customers. The wasteful cycle tends to be perpetuated by a service industry that ignores the facts and relies either on anecdotes or other scare tactics to convince customers to waste money on unnecessary services. Like 3k oil changes.

 

[4Reak Show]

AT this point no I have not paid for an oil analysis. At some point in the future I might have one done. But I have no doubt that I could run MINE to 5k with no problem what so ever. 10k in my personal and professional opinion is too far. Like I said I have been a tech for over 14 years. I have watched cars develop issues over that time. Even ones that use factory 0w20....

But like I already said. You can do whatever you feel is best and I can as well. That is the benefit of living in free countries.[emoji106]

Totally agree. Might be a "waste" but it's an investment. And numbers don't lie.

Let's take some ball park figures to put it in perspective:

10,000 miles, at average 50 miles per hour, average 2,000 RPM's (this should compensate for highway vs in-town speed, and higher RPM's vs idling which wouldn't account for miles)

50 miles per hour = .83 miles per minute

10,000 miles / . 83 miles per minute = 12,048 minutes (to achieve 10K miles)

12,048 minutes X 2,000 Revolutions per minute = 24,096,385 revolutions of the engine.

Yeah that's ballpark 25,000,000 engine revolutions to achieve 10,000 miles. (TWENTY FIVE MILLION) Sure oil has improved but I just can't see it going that long. 5K intervals for me since I'll likely be buried in my 4Runner. I don't trade in. I don't sell.

To each their own.

 

[Jetboy]

Totally agree. Might be a "waste" but it's an investment. And numbers don't lie.

Let's take some ball park figures to put it in perspective:

10,000 miles, at average 50 miles per hour, average 2,000 RPM's (this should compensate for highway vs in-town speed, and higher RPM's vs idling which wouldn't account for miles)

50 miles per hour = .83 miles per minute

10,000 miles / . 83 miles per minute = 12,048 minutes (to achieve 10K miles)

12,048 minutes X 2,000 Revolutions per minute = 24,096,385 revolutions of the engine.

Yeah that's ballpark 25,000,000 engine revolutions to achieve 10,000 miles. (TWENTY FIVE MILLION) Sure oil has improved but I just can't see it going that long. 5K intervals for me since I'll likely be buried in my 4Runner. I don't trade in. I don't sell.

To each their own.

You know there are actual scientific studies that prove that more frequent oil changes offer no benefit right?

Your logic is kinda nonsensical. Why is 12,500,000 revolutions acceptable? That's still a lot of revolutions. If the engine has 3.5qts of oil would you change it at 2,500 miles? If you had a 1JZ with 7 main bearings - would that mean you need to change it more often? Your differential pinion rotates about 26 million times every 10k miles - yet you change that oil every 150 million revolutions....

 

[4Reak Show]

Oh dude that's totally valid and I seriously mean that. Lots of things get overlooked just like that. Again, not taking anything away from the 10K'ers, just sharing my opinion. A lot of folks don't actually know or quite understand what's going on under the hood or inside of an engine. I'm a semi-conspiracy theorists and I think planned obsolescence is a big part of the engineering.

Look at the wording of the Trans fluid, known as World Standard ran in our vehicles. They claim it to be "lifetime fluid" and there is no better word to describe EXACTLY the length of time it will last: the exact life of the transmission. They actually don't ever call for service if I'm not mistaken but I flush WS ATF every 50K. It's a low risk, low cost peace of mind.

And yeah LOTS of people only buy these cars since they retain resale value, indicating they have no plans to keep it long-long term. For them, do the longer interval. Why waste money on something you don't intend to keep. But for someone like me who will own this car until I'm dead, $60 every 6 months for peace of mind is a no brainer. I've seen first hand the destruction of these machines due to overlooking basic maintenance. I have ready access to all the oil and filters I want for cheap so why not.

It's kind of like, well the doctor said I only need to come in once a year for blood work so that's all I'm gonna do. Even tho my insurance will cover blood work twice a year... I'd be going twice a year in that instance as well.

 

[4Reak Show]

Wanted to add I just did an oil change on a 16 SR5 at about 8,800 miles and the oil was still thin, but it was BLACK. Like black-black. Whereas the 5K oil in my personal one still had a twinge of golden-brown.

Of course this has zero chemical basis whatsoever, just first hand experience

 

[1engineer]

Wow you guys pretty much go by the book on oil changes don't you?. I will keep changing MINE every 3k. I'd rather wear out an oil pan than to end up burning oil earlier. But I drive my vehicles 250 to 300 easily. I am at 250 on my tundra and my wife's 16 tep is over 30k in less than a year.

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I love it when people show up that are smarter than the Toyota engineers who designed and spec'd everything lol. Maybe you also can change the engine design too?

There's a reason I go by the book. The engineers who designed this system know more than me about this subject and I design stuff for a living. More frequent oil changes do absolutely nothing except provide more chance of screwing something up or introducing more contaminants into the system. Of course you will come back with the "piece of mind" answer. People who do something for piece of mind should learn something about the subject, then the "piece of mind" argument goes to 10K.

If nothing else, look at all the oil samples from Blackstone here that were done at 10K intervals. No issues with any of them. Good luck.

 

[4Reak Show]

Naw, I'd rather come back with the rebuttal of engineers being perfect: if they got it right the first time there wouldn't be these magical things called RECALLS. As one example.... Or how about all these sink holes? Doesn't a neighborhood require a civil ENGINEER at some point before they build houses? Has a bridge ever collapsed after an engineer signed off? Whoops... I guess people can get it wrong, despite their fancy education.

And yeah, one thing I would redesign about this engine is the knock sensor. Have you looked into that yet? Yeah... 23 hour job and removal of a cylinder head to fix a $100 part. Seems like a poor design to me. Especially considering this is a vehicle marketed to people who want to spend time in the woods with high potential for rodent damage.

Degrees don't make you smart. Smart makes you smart. (And while we're on the subject, PEACE of mind not PIECE of mind). I can't stand when people hide behind a piece of paper. Just because someone didn't want to waste their youth earning a plaque to hang in their office doesn't make them any less qualified based simply on observations.

Damnit. Just when I was starting to like people again, someone has to go and remind me. Bummer.

 

[Coyotegray]

I love it when people show up that are smarter than the Toyota engineers who designed and spec'd everything lol. Maybe you also can change the engine design too?

There's a reason I go by the book. The engineers who designed this system know more than me about this subject and I design stuff for a living. More frequent oil changes do absolutely nothing except provide more chance of screwing something up or introducing more contaminants into the system. Of course you will come back with the "piece of mind" answer. People who do something for piece of mind should learn something about the subject, then the "piece of mind" argument goes to 10K.

If nothing else, look at all the oil samples from Blackstone here that were done at 10K intervals. No issues with any of them. Good luck.

Your contradicting his belief system. Pointless...

 

[1engineer]

Oh dude that's totally valid and I seriously mean that. Lots of things get overlooked just like that. Again, not taking anything away from the 10K'ers, just sharing my opinion. A lot of folks don't actually know or quite understand what's going on under the hood or inside of an engine. I'm a semi-conspiracy theorists and I think planned obsolescence is a big part of the engineering.

Look at the wording of the Trans fluid, known as World Standard ran in our vehicles. They claim it to be "lifetime fluid" and there is no better word to describe EXACTLY the length of time it will last: the exact life of the transmission. They actually don't ever call for service if I'm not mistaken but I flush WS ATF every 50K. It's a low risk, low cost peace of mind.

And yeah LOTS of people only buy these cars since they retain resale value, indicating they have no plans to keep it long-long term. For them, do the longer interval. Why waste money on something you don't intend to keep. But for someone like me who will own this car until I'm dead, $60 every 6 months for peace of mind is a no brainer. I've seen first hand the destruction of these machines due to overlooking basic maintenance. I have ready access to all the oil and filters I want for cheap so why not.

It's kind of like, well the doctor said I only need to come in once a year for blood work so that's all I'm gonna do. Even tho my insurance will cover blood work twice a year... I'd be going twice a year in that instance as well.

Let me help you out some on the "conspiracy" of planned obsolescence, as again, I design things for a living that are a lot bigger and more expensive than a 4Runner. For example, one of our pumps that you can lift yourself and place in the back of your 4Runner costs more than the 4Runner lol. Anyway, ready for the truth?
Engineers and management of companies that produce products never design for obsolescence. Never. They also do not design for a predetermined life before failure. Never.
What they DO is design a product, based on cost and expected life the customer demands. It truly is that simple.

1. In the case of our Toyotas, the engineering group is told how much the vehicle is going to cost. That is based on lots of surveys and focus groups and competition pricing as to what the customer is willing to spend.

2. Next, the engineering group is told what the customer expects as far as expected life. Again, this is based on customer demands and past history.

So, the engineering group now knows how long this vehicle should last and how much the customer is willing to pay, based on people exactly like you and me, the customers. From there, all the gearing, braking, engine and maintenance is predicated on what the customer expects. There is no fat guy sitting in the corner smoking a cigar stating "I want you dumbass engineers to design it to fail at 100K miles so they will buy another vehicle!" No. The consumer has an expectation, the manufacturer does their best to meet that expectation. That's truly the way it works. All the bearing loads, gear wear, etc are based on a maintenance schedule that is published, and that will get you to their customer specified designed life. More frequent oil changes do not mean crap nowadays, because the filtration system has adequate dirt holding capacity and the oil is designed NOT to have its additive package break down in that time or duty cycle. The color of the oil means nothing nowadays. This is not 10W-40 from the 1970's. Your dad or granddad can't fix this engine under a cherry tree in the back yard with a couple of wrenches and some choke cleaner and a file.

Lastly, while I admire you math skills, engines are not rated in RPM's. They are rated in hours of use as far as maintenance is concerned. What will reduce the engine's life is extended use under high power demand (like pulling a 5K trailer daily) and really nothing, including more oil changes, is going to change that.
So run your engine at normal loads, change the oil and do maintenance on schedule and you will go hundreds of thousands of miles. Load that thing up racing it or pulling heavy trailers and your engine life will be reduced accordingly, no matter what you do. Hope this makes sense because it's the way it truly is.

Wanted to add I just did an oil change on a 16 SR5 at about 8,800 miles and the oil was still thin, but it was BLACK. Like black-black. Whereas the 5K oil in my personal one still had a twinge of golden-brown.

Of course this has zero chemical basis whatsoever, just first hand experience

 

[bamma]

Nothing wrong with doing shorter intervals if it makes you feel better. 10,000 highway miles will put less wear on the engine that 10,000 city miles. It is all relative. I have used Blackstone a few times. I usually change between 8k-10k miles when I get the chance. So far at nearly 60k miles on my 4Runner, everything is perfect. I also have a 25 mile highway commute. I could see situations where 10k miles is way to many (think snowplow, offroading someone with a 3 mile city commute, etc.).

I do agree for the average driver, 10k makes sense.

 

[mrblah]

after reading this thread, you can't argue with stupid.

 

[4Reak Show]

Lastly...I admire your math skills...

Is it narcissistic or sociopathic that this part was the most important to me?

Totally joking. And respectfully I appreciate the insight. Admittedly I do not know the ins and outs of engineering protocol. All I have is my own experience in the field being a lowly auto tech for 11 years. I've seen it too often where the longer these machines seem to go between maintenance the worse off they tend to be and the sooner they die.

 

[wlmuncy]

I will add my .02 with my second post. My trade in car for the 4 runner was a 2001 Audi A4 turbo. The original maintenance was 10k miles. After a large number of engine failures due to sludge in the oil, it was recommended for 5k with full synthetic and a larger oil filter. I highly respect engineers and the effort they put in, but computer simulation is not the same as real world experience. Which is why the rule holds pretty well, that the first year run of a new car/redesign is the year to avoid.

I go with 10k oil changes with full synthetic on non-turbo engines. For a turbo it's 5k.

 

[1engineer]

Is it narcissistic or sociopathic that this part was the most important to me?

Totally joking. And respectfully I appreciate the insight. Admittedly I do not know the ins and outs of engineering protocol. All I have is my own experience in the field being a lowly auto tech for 11 years. I've seen it too often where the longer these machines seem to go between maintenance the worse off they tend to be and the sooner they die.

...and I meant it because most non STEM people have no use for numbers or abstract thinking. Also, there's nothing "lowly" about being a tech of any kind. Our company's techs are some of the most valuable and knowledgeable people we have. The whole point of my post was: If you run it under normal loading, normal maintenance at 10K is fine. If you load it heavy and often, even changing the oil more frequently won't get it to a lightly loaded engine life. Pretty simple.

 

[graciedad04]

Ok this is what I was talking about as far as most of the people on here being in a classification of severe duty. They have changed wording over the years though. It used to say, excessive idling, towing, over 80 degrees or under 32 degrees was considered severe duty.

So excessive idling, low speed driving, trips of less than 5 miles at less than 32 degrees. Not sure how many of us are taxi drivers, police or door to door delivery drivers in our 4runners. But that is current classification to toyota in the 16 runner.

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[1engineer]

Ok this is what I was talking about as far as most of the people on here being in a classification of severe duty. They have changed wording over the years though. It used to say, excessive idling, towing, over 80 degrees or under 32 degrees was considered severe duty.

So excessive idling, low speed driving, trips of less than 5 miles at less than 32 degrees. Not sure how many of us are taxi drivers, police or door to door delivery drivers in our 4runners. But that is current classification to toyota in the 16 runner.

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Repeatable heavy loading of the engine is what all that means. When you do that, you can change your oil every day and won't get the engine life of the guy who uses his normally and changes it every 10K.
My definition of normal is normal, off road every now and then, not every day. Pull a trailer every now and then, not every damn day. Normal versus severe.

 

[graciedad04]

i have to question how idling, low speed driving are heavy loading on the engine? i do agree on my definition of normal is the same as yours. what i was meaning by my statement is that toyotas definition of normal is not the same as ours. my normal means i drive about 30 mins each way to work with some light offroading and dirt roads atleast 1x a week.

In the end it does not affect me if you change yours every 10k and it doesn't affect you if I change mine every 3k. So to each their own.

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[83Mule]

Every vehicle I own gets it's oil changed more often than the book calls for based on my sense of how hard I worked it that interval. My 35 year old ''Mule'' 22R gets oil and filter every 3K because it is only used to Off-Road or tow a trailer on road. 35 years of every 3k and it runs smooth, has compression equal to new at 160K and is only an Alternator removed from being original. I did every 5K on my 1st gen 4Runner and 3.slow using dino as well. 5th Gen is getting synth every 7.5K....mostly city driving. KTM gets oil every 1K or 10 hours because it only holds .7 Qts! I realize I could go longer but enjoy working on stuff myself and knowing it's done right. Primarily I do it because I have seen and heard too many horror stories from the Jiffy-Lube victims! Do what makes you happy and confident in the vehic:wink2:le.......