Oil Filter Bypass theory?

[CJ3Flyr]

I am thinking a lot about oil filters lately based on Frenchie's horror story: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/66618-blew-my-03-v6-engine-then-i-found.html

If I understand the problem the Amsoil EAO57 didn't bypass 'easily enough' (or too easily ). The partially clogged filter actually 'stopped/reduced' oil flow enough to cause engine failure. Apparently there wasn't enough oil flow/pressure to just 'bypass' the filter and save the engine from catastrophic failure. That surprises me sort-of. Super thin oil and low oil pressures contribute to better mpg so it's where we are, maybe it doesn't surprise me... (Back when I was a boy 40psi was an ok idle pressure and 60-70psi running pressure when above 1300-1500rpm was desirable. 10w-40 in the winter and straight 40 or 20w-50 in the summer.)

So.... Obviously a good filter and 3-6k oil changes would avoid all the issues. Let's assume we wanted more or to learn more

The way I understand it:
1) Once a filter senses too much pressure differential it should bypass. In theory, if nothing is terribly abrasive, you should be able to drive 1000miles or whatever. Obviously the oil will get dirty fast as it's unfiltered. True?
2) The Toyota filters are "medium bypass" referring to the bypass pressure. If thin oil and marginal pressure are the modern 'norm' why not low pressure bypass other than the trend for small filters with too little media?

Based on what I've said above why not screw on this bad-boy (which does fit a 4th gen V6)?

It seems to me that a Napa Gold, PureOne, Baldwin or any other "good" filter is more than up to an extended interval and if it did clog it would bypass rather than destroy the engine (due to low-pressure bypass)

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[SkylineGTRracer]

The purolator should work but I prefer the K&N oil filter. I just skimmed what happened to that 03 and was surprised and disappointed. I read somewhere on tacoma world that a guy with a supercharged X-runner with bigger than normal oil filter (4.7L V8?) and was able to extend his oil life or at least kept in clean as possible.

 

[kylebacc]

I don't really understand a whole lot of what you guys are saying, but I'm subscribing anyway in hopes of figuring it out

 

[CJ3Flyr]

The purolator should work but I prefer the K&N oil filter. I just skimmed what happened to that 03 and was surprised and disappointed. I read somewhere on tacoma world that a guy with a supercharged X-runner with bigger than normal oil filter (4.7L V8?) and was able to extend his oil life or at least kept in clean as possible.

The 4.7L filter is a tiny bit bigger, nothing substantial. (I run them in the form of the -20004 Toyo filter. http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/parts/toyota_filter/) I'm not trying to get into a Wix vs K&N vs whatever... I am trying to nail down the bypass valve functioning and how extra media might have made the difference for Frenchie. I used the picture of the PureOne because it has dimensions, that thing is huge compared with either of the Toyota filters and it has a backflow check valve.


Great threads on filters including cutaways: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/maintenance/20182-oil-filter-do-you-use-2.html & http://www.toyota-4runner.org/polls/8948-what-oil-filter-do-you-use.html Neither of these threads talks about bypass theory/pressure etc.

 

[SeattleMike]

I am trying to nail down the bypass valve functioning and how extra media might have made the difference for Frenchie. I used the picture of the PureOne because it has dimensions, that thing is huge compared with either of the Toyota filters and it has a backflow check valve.

The issue is that he was going 9300+ miles (15000 km) between oil filter changes. Even assuming the previous oil filters worked "normally" and began bypassing when clogged, who knows when the bypass kicked in and he began running straight unfiltered oil? 4500 miles? 6500 miles? Even assuming the 1000 miles running unfiltered oil that you earlier stated he "should be able to drive", he was running like this since his warranty expired and had almost 112,000 miles on it when it seized; how many miles of those were running unfiltered through the bypass?

The pictures of his oil pan tell the story pretty clearly. I'm not talking about the big chunks but the find sand-like stuff that are coating the sides of the pan. This is the stuff that should have been caught by the filter and instead was clogging, grinding, and starving his engine of lubrication. Had he changed his oil filter more frequently, he would have avoided this issue completely.

As to your question, I've been running oversized filters on my 1985 22R pick-up for years. 239k Miles and still rolling strong. And I *still* change it out every 3000 miles.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

As to your question, I've been running oversized filters on my 1985 22R pick-up for years. 239k Miles and still rolling strong. And I *still* change it out every 3000 miles.

I understand agree with what you're saying about Frenchie's ordeal.

When you look for an oversized filter do you consider the bypass rating or just fit & check valve?

Finally, no doubt, there are a few people who rack up easy highway miles quickly who may be ok to run long intervals. The rest of us should stick to 3-7.5k depending... I think the whole long interval thing came from the trucking industry where they have long intervals. What people forget is it's quite possible that a big rig engine cools all the way down to cold once or twice a week. A hard running rig goes through very few temperature cycles for the miles driven.

 

[CookieRoe]

....... I think the whole long interval thing came from the trucking industry where they have long intervals. What people forget is it's quite possible that a big rig engine cools all the way down to cold once or twice a week. A hard running rig goes through very few temperature cycles for the miles driven.

I believe you just nailed it right there! Big rigs generally run for long intervals of time. When was the last time you a big rig do errands? I personally believe people kid themselves when they believe they can do 10k and above on their filters/oil . They believe all the nonsense propaganda. I'm a believer in changing no more than 5k on oil intervals. What happened to Frenchie totally sucks, I honestly hopes he gets his issue resolved. However I think seattlemike is correct in that he could have avoided all of this by simply changing his oil like the rest of us. Lesson learned I guess.

I use mobile1 & OEM Toyota oil filters.

 

[riverider]

The real deal is the paper media used,and what the pressure drop is at the time the filter fails, using AC-fine material being added to the oil stream while the filter is tested.

Now does anyone understand what I just posted?:lol:

 

[Duhockey]

Finally, no doubt, there are a few people who rack up easy highway miles quickly who may be ok to run long intervals. The rest of us should stick to 3-7.5k depending... I think the whole long interval thing came from the trucking industry where they have long intervals. What people forget is it's quite possible that a big rig engine cools all the way down to cold once or twice a week. A hard running rig goes through very few temperature cycles for the miles driven.

I dont think that the long intervals came only from there, we did some research in auto class some years back, and found that a study had done controlled tests on (I forget the number but it was huge) a zillion cabs (same make, model,year) in New York City.

they had half do the oil at 3k and half at 6k and there was absolutely no difference in the average maint costs of the vehicles between the two groups.

Since then, I have done oil every 6k in Colorado and in Cali with diff driving environments and since then never had an engine related repair, on my Prelude, Grand Am or 4Runner or my wifes Saturn, Mitsu Eclipse, or her Outlander.

So I think there were other studies behind the whole "long interval" oil change movement.

 

[004Gunner]

... he was running like this since his warranty expired and had almost 112,000 miles on it when it seized; how many miles of those were running unfiltered through the bypass?

The pictures of his oil pan tell the story pretty clearly. I'm not talking about the big chunks but the find sand-like stuff that are coating the sides of the pan. This is the stuff that should have been caught by the filter and instead was clogging, grinding, and starving his engine of lubrication. Had he changed his oil filter more frequently, he would have avoided this issue completely.

Definitely no way of knowing how many miles were driven on unfiltered oil. I don't think that there is any definitive answer with the metal shavings and chunks though. There is just no way to determine if the fine metal shavings had been accumulated over time from x amount of miles on unfiltered oil, or if they accumulated rapidly and got progressively larger from the single catastrophic failure of oil flow. I think your theory is more likely though.

I would also question whether or not this was the first time the engine had experienced oil flow failure. Does the oil pressure light come on soon enough? A gauge would be better for the observant driver, but you have to consider that the light could come on after smaller drops in oil pressure are detected. Maybe the engine requires a higher minimum pressure than the Toyota engineers thought. Maybe the top mount filter has design flaws. Either way, there is no reason to trust such a long oil change interval, warranty or not.

 

[CookieRoe]

...they had half do the oil at 3k and half at 6k and there was absolutely no difference in the average maint costs of the vehicles between the two groups.

So I think there were other studies behind the whole "long interval" oil change movement.

I remember that test, but you're missing the point of Cjflyer post: # of cold/hot cycles. Taxis run all day and can accumulate lots of miles in a day. The average driver doesn't drive their 4runner like this, so that study (in oil longevity) is thrown out the window.

No one doubts that today's oils can outlast the normal 3k interval, it's just good insurance. Like I mentioned before, I do happy median and go 5k.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

The real deal is the paper media used,and what the pressure drop is at the time the filter fails, using AC-fine material being added to the oil stream while the filter is tested.

I agree and to me; it's a quantity AND quality issue.

I dont think that the long intervals came only from there, we did some research in auto class some years back, and found that a study had done controlled tests on (I forget the number but it was huge) a zillion cabs (same make, model,year) in New York City.

they had half do the oil at 3k and half at 6k and there was absolutely no difference in the average maint costs of the vehicles between the two groups.

Since then, I have done oil every 6k in Colorado and in Cali with diff driving environments and since then never had an engine related repair, on my Prelude, Grand Am or 4Runner or my wifes Saturn, Mitsu Eclipse, or her Outlander.

So I think there were other studies behind the whole "long interval" oil change movement.

Good point but I can't pry myself away from heat cycles...

Definitely no way of knowing how many miles were driven on unfiltered oil. True. I don't think that there is any definitive answer with the metal shavings and chunks though. There is just no way to determine if the fine metal shavings had been accumulated over time from x amount of miles on unfiltered oil, or if they accumulated rapidly and got progressively larger from the single catastrophic failure of oil flow. I think your theory is more likely though.

I would also question whether or not this was the first time the engine had experienced oil flow failure. Does the oil pressure light come on soon enough? A gauge would be better for the observant driver, but you have to consider that the light could come on after smaller drops in oil pressure are detected. Maybe the engine requires a higher minimum pressure than the Toyota engineers thought. Maybe the top mount filter has design flaws. More so than filter position I am honing in on the choice to go with a "medium" bypass pressure rather than a "low" bypass pressure. Either way, there is no reason to trust such a long oil change interval, warranty or not.

:iagree:

I remember that test, but you're missing the point of Cjflyer post: # of cold/hot cycles. Taxis run all day and can accumulate lots of miles in a day. The average driver doesn't drive their 4runner like this, so that study (in oil longevity) is thrown out the window.

YES! Thank-you!



I am focusing on the bypass pressure rating and we're getting closer to discussing that Thanks for keeping the thread alive:bigok:

 

[riverider]

The only real item that will kill your engine is heat, heat causes your lubrication media to lose it's ability to protect the dynamic metal surfaces in the engine.

Many small air cooled engines used in lawn mowers don't have oil filters, and they don't fail because of not having a filter. They are designed to use only air for their cooling.

Filters are useful but not as much as when they were needed in the 40s to around the end of the 80s. Today's engines used in Toyota's and all other Autos and Trucks, could really run for many many miles without a filter in their system.

Filters are BIG after market sales items that bring in BIG money, for both OEMs and other brand filter Mfgs.

Many OEMs filters are being Mfg. by the same filter Mfgs.

I have worked for one of them and know the facts.

Yes I still install a filter, but I don't think it's the real protection many will tell you and me it is.:snacker:

 

[NCSCOTT]

I think the whole long interval thing came from the trucking industry where they have long intervals. What people forget is it's quite possible that a big rig engine cools all the way down to cold once or twice a week. A hard running rig goes through very few temperature cycles for the miles driven.

These trucks also have upwards of 42-44 quarts (10-11 gallons) of oil plus 1 and sometimes 2 filters the size of 1 gallon tea pitchers. I would guess one is a bypass filter but it has been since I was 18 when I worked at a trucking co. as a grease monkey. 18 years ago......... Scary!!!

 

[CJ3Flyr]

These trucks also have upwards of 42-44 quarts (10-11 gallons)...

I had no idea. I knew it was a lot but I always figured 5-6gl not 10-11!

Lots of oil, lots of filter media and comparatively few heat cycles... The long intervals sure make sense for the big trucks.

 

[004Gunner]

The only real item that will kill your engine is heat, heat causes your lubrication media to lose it's ability to protect the dynamic metal surfaces in the engine.

Many small air cooled engines used in lawn mowers don't have oil filters, and they don't fail because of not having a filter. They are designed to use only air for their cooling.

Filters are useful but not as much as when they were needed in the 40s to around the end of the 80s. Today's engines used in Toyota's and all other Autos and Trucks, could really run for many many miles without a filter in their system.

Filters are BIG after market sales items that bring in BIG money, for both OEMs and other brand filter Mfgs.

Many OEMs filters are being Mfg. by the same filter Mfgs.

I have worked for one of them and know the facts.

Yes I still install a filter, but I don't think it's the real protection many will tell you and me it is.:snacker:

I have to disagree. I see the point you're trying to make and agree with the heat effects mentioned. The oil in lawn mowers is definitely a part of it's cooling system. Air alone could not keep an internal combustion engine cool enough without some type of internal friction reducer (Oil-less air compressors are a great failure example). Even when you don't have a separate oil system, you still have to get oil into the engine (think 2 cycle, even gas RC cars use this). A filter in theory should only serve to reduce engine wear, by filtering out potentially harmful particles. Assuming you don't have large chunks of metal falling off, unfiltered oil would not lead to a single catastrophic event.

 

[riverider]

I have to disagree. I see the point you're trying to make and agree with the heat effects mentioned. The oil in lawn mowers is definitely a part of it's cooling system. Air alone could not keep an internal combustion engine cool enough without some type of internal friction reducer (Oil-less air compressors are a great failure example). Even when you don't have a separate oil system, you still have to get oil into the engine (think 2 cycle, even gas RC cars use this). A filter in theory should only serve to reduce engine wear, by filtering out potentially harmful particles. Assuming you don't have large chunks of metal falling off, unfiltered oil would not lead to a single catastrophic event.

Having a filter in the system is still a good idea.

I never tried to make a case of the oil not being a major part of the engines cooling process.

In the small lawnmower engines, oil is the lubrication media.
Heat from combustion and friction is being transferred to the lubrication media when the engine is running.

The flow of air passing over the engines housing removes the heat being given off from the oil.

 

[004Gunner]

Having a filter in the system is still a good idea.

I never tried to make a case of the oil not being a major part of the engines cooling process.

In the small lawnmower engines, oil is the lubrication media.
Heat from combustion and friction is being transferred to the lubrication media when the engine is running.

The flow of air passing over the engines housing removes the heat being given off from the oil.

Oh, I just misunderstood when you said that small engines like lawn mowers use only air for their cooling, but I see what you mean now. The oil is simply part of the heat transfer that is ultimately completed by air flow. And I definitely wouldn't want to run any vehicle without an oil filter since the only other way to remove any contaminants would be through the exhaust

 

[riverider]

Oh, I just misunderstood when you said that small engines like lawn mowers use only air for their cooling, but I see what you mean now. The oil is simply part of the heat transfer that is ultimately completed by air flow. And I definitely wouldn't want to run any vehicle without an oil filter since the only other way to remove any contaminants would be through the exhaust

I would never imply people should quit using oil filters,just they are not as important on today's engines as they were, back in the 40s and early 80s.

 

[CookieRoe]

Great points in the last posts. I feel we've strayed a bit. I admittedly know little about this oil filter bypass valve. I didn't know it even existed before frenchie's engine troubles. So:

(bypass valve exists in cases when/if the filter becomes clogged?....thus a reduction in oil pressure?.........right?)

1) If it worked, then any oil after the point of the mafunction becomes unfiltered. X factor is knowing WHEN it malfunctioned, but the consensus is that we will never know.
2) If it didn't work, then the engine must have experience oil starvation?? Or had unfiltered oil circulate the motor for AGAIN, we will never know.

Here's another question. What if the bypass valve had nothing to do with frenchie's engine failure? Is it possible that his pump simply failed?? I know they "aren't supposed" to fail, just saying....

Anyway, I believe simply changing the oil at 3-5K is good insurance, EVEN if you use the cheapest oil out there. I honestly find it troubling (I don't care if I get flamed for this) when people send out their oil to get analyized to see "how they are doing" and base this info on their oil change intervals. I understand that this method gives you great information on the "health" of the motor and oil. Reminds me of the patients that come to our office: I work at an eye surgeon's office and it's funny how when people come, they see fine, so they believe the health of their eye is fine. Having great visual acuity has very little to do with "how your eye is doing". Anyway, Many here change their own oil thus the cost of doing it is relative. So why not do it more often and avoid possible disasters such as engine failure?? :snacker: