Oil Filter Bypass theory?

[CJ3Flyr]

Great points in the last posts. I feel we've strayed a bit. I admittedly know little about this oil filter bypass valve. I didn't know it even existed before frenchie's engine troubles. So:

(bypass valve exists in cases when/if the filter becomes clogged?....thus a reduction in oil pressure?.........right?)

1) If it worked, That's what is 'suspect' due to the known Amsoil filter issue. then any oil after the point of the mafunction becomes unfiltered. X factor is knowing WHEN it malfunctioned, Yet another reason many prefer a "real" oil pressure gauge vs a light. If I understand the failure an oil pressure gauge would've helped. I suspect he ran quite a while with enough pressure to keep the light off but well below normal pressure. but the consensus is that we will never know.
2) If it didn't work, then the engine must have experience oil starvation?? Or had unfiltered oil circulate the motor for AGAIN, we will never know. I theorize that this is where it all goes bad with the Amsoil filter. The spring (inside the filter) that controls when the filter bypasses was a hair too stiff and the oil continued to push on the blocked filter media and the flow became restricted to a dangerously low volume. Toyota chooses to use a 'medium bypass pressure' rating for our filters. My point is if you used more media (larger filter) you could lower the bypass pressure, provide equal or better filtration for longer and provide more safety. If the media does become restricted the larger, low-pressure bypass filter would bypass easier and prevent oil starvation.

Here's another question. What if the bypass valve had nothing to do with frenchie's engine failure? Is it possible that his pump simply failed?? I know they "aren't supposed" to fail, just saying.... Anything is possible but very unlikely IMHO.

:cheers:

 

[riverider]

Great points in the last posts. I feel we've strayed a bit. I admittedly know little about this oil filter bypass valve. I didn't know it even existed before frenchie's engine troubles. So:

(bypass valve exists in cases when/if the filter becomes clogged?....thus a reduction in oil pressure?.........right?)

1) If it worked, then any oil after the point of the mafunction becomes unfiltered. X factor is knowing WHEN it malfunctioned, but the consensus is that we will never know.
2) If it didn't work, then the engine must have experience oil starvation?? Or had unfiltered oil circulate the motor for AGAIN, we will never know.

Here's another question. What if the bypass valve had nothing to do with frenchie's engine failure? Is it possible that his pump simply failed?? I know they "aren't supposed" to fail, just saying....

Anyway, I believe simply changing the oil at 3-5K is good insurance, EVEN if you use the cheapest oil out there. I honestly find it troubling (I don't care if I get flamed for this) when people send out their oil to get analyized to see "how they are doing" and base this info on their oil change intervals. I understand that this method gives you great information on the "health" of the motor and oil. Reminds me of the patients that come to our office: I work at an eye surgeon's office and it's funny how when people come, they see fine, so they believe the health of their eye is fine. Having great visual acuity has very little to do with "how your eye is doing". Anyway, Many here change their own oil thus the cost of doing it is relative. So why not do it more often and avoid possible disasters such as engine failure?? :snacker:

Myself I don't feel the length of miles on the oil caused the engine failure. I worked for FACET filter Mfg. in their engineering research Dept. we tested the filters media and we tested their bypassing valves. We tested them like they had highly contaminated oil flowing through them.

What the bypass valve is for is to make sure the delta pressure will not be so high as to cause the filter housing to fail, meaning collapse. And we caused this to happen by adding AC fine material in such high amounts, that they failed.

We inspected many filters from customers like Target K-Mart WalMart who said they thought the store brand or a Major brand filter, had caused their engines to fail.

Never was a failure caused by their oil. Most times it was a filter seal or housing with a crack, that caused the engine to fail. Meaning they lost all their oil.

 

[CookieRoe]

:cheers:

Your larger media idea certainly makes sense........would be great to get an engineer's point of view......

Come to think of it, I remember going to Toyota to pick a filter for my father's Lexus RX (same as Highlander) and the dude at the parts counter told me that there were 2 filters and one was bigger than the other, but either would fit....... I remember him saying Toyota changed the size of the filter for some reason.............hmmmmm.

If your theory is correct, who makes a larger filter for our V6 runners???

 

[riverider]

Your larger media idea certainly makes sense........would be great to get an engineer's point of view......

Come to think of it, I remember going to Toyota to pick a filter for my father's Lexus RX (same as Highlander) and the dude at the parts counter told me that there were 2 filters and one was bigger than the other, but either would fit....... I remember him saying Toyota changed the size of the filter for some reason.............hmmmmm.

If your theory is correct, who makes a larger filter for our V6 runners???

I noticed the Fram tough guard 6X is about 3/4 inch shorter then the DENCO Toyota OEM filter. If that means anything, if there is more paper media inside I guess it means more paper media. It's the quality of the paper media that counts not how much is being used.

 

[CookieRoe]

I noticed the Fram tough guard 6X is about 3/4 inch shorter then the DENCO Toyota OEM filter. If that means anything, if there is more paper media inside I guess it means more paper media. It's the quality of the paper media that counts not how much is being used.

That certainly makes sense.......I did see somewhere that fram's "upper level" filters are pretty good.

Don't have much more to add b/c of the limited knowledge I have on this subject. I still believe that more frequent oil/filter intervals may prevent engine failure no matter what EXACTLY transpired in frenchie's motor.

 

[riverider]

That certainly makes sense.......I did see somewhere that fram's "upper level" filters are pretty good.

Don't have much more to add b/c of the limited knowledge I have on this subject. I still believe that more frequent oil/filter intervals may prevent engine failure no matter what EXACTLY transpired in frenchie's motor.

I used OEM Mfg. filters on my 98 Nissan Maxima for years, I switched at one point to Frams Tough Guard 6X, FACET was part of Fram years ago so I knew Fram used quality paper media and in the Tough Guard they use a thicker metal in both the housing and the interface base of the housing.

I have seen no leakage or change in anything while using the Fram filter. Only reason I am staying with the DENCO Toyota OEM filter is because of my warranty and the Toyota filter is about the same cost as the Fram.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

If your theory is correct, who makes a larger filter for our V6 runners???

Many use the 4Runner V8 filter on their V6 with great success. I do and they fit great. There's a larger K&N that some people use with good luck too, I forget the part #.

In fact a huge Fram PH8A (Motorcraft FL1A, Pure One 30001 etc.) fits. The 'danger' with spinning on the big filter is very few have a super high quality anti-drainback valve. When the 4Runner is parked for any length of time the filter drains out and you get a dry, rattly start because the filter has to refill prior to the engine getting oiled. Don't believe me? Study up at the FJC forum...
:cheers:

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Myself I don't feel the length of miles on the oil caused the engine failure. I worked for FACET filter Mfg. in their engineering research Dept. we tested the filters media and we tested their bypassing valves. We tested them like they had highly contaminated oil flowing through them.

What the bypass valve is for is to make sure the delta pressure will not be so high as to cause the filter housing to fail, meaning collapse. And we caused this to happen by adding AC fine material in such high amounts, that they failed.

We inspected many filters from customers like Target K-Mart WalMart who said they thought the store brand or a Major brand filter, had caused their engines to fail.

Never was a failure caused by their oil. Most times it was a filter seal or housing with a crack, that caused the engine to fail. Meaning they lost all their oil.

That's good info... So assuming no housing failure; if a filter becomes plugged the bypass should allow oil to bypass the filter and continue to flow because the suction on the return will get high enough to open the bypass?

 

[riverider]

Many use the 4Runner V8 filter on their V6 with great success. I do and they fit great. There's a larger K&N that some people use with good luck too, I forget the part #.

In fact a huge Fram PH8A (Motorcraft FL1A, Pure One 30001 etc.) fits. The 'danger' with spinning on the big filter is very few have a super high quality anti-drainback valve. When the 4Runner is parked for any length of time the filter drains out and you get a dry, rattly start because the filter has to refill prior to the engine getting oiled.
:cheers:

Maybe one should invest in some after market dry sump pan with the out board electric oil pump setup, have a after market up to a 15 filter filter box. Run it all through a big electric fan cooled oil cooler.
And you would be the coolest running 4Runner guy or girl on your block.:hello:

 

[DRC]

Great discussion here. I am trying to follow along but you all know a bit more about this then myself. If I get it, the bypass opens when the pressure inside the filter gets to high is that correct?

So lets say the oil comes into the filter at say 40psi, as long as it can push through the filter media then there should be no bypass. Now lets say the oil enters at 60psi, again as long as it can flow through the filter media there should be no bypass. Is this a correct assumption? That is, as long as the oil flows through the filter media there should be no bypass regardless of the oil pressure itself.

 

[riverider]

Great discussion here. I am trying to follow along but you all know a bit more about this then myself. If I get it, the bypass opens when the pressure inside the filter gets to high is that correct?

So lets say the oil comes into the filter at say 40psi, as long as it can push through the filter media then there should be no bypass. Now lets say the oil enters at 60psi, again as long as it can flow through the filter media there should be no bypass. Is this a correct assumption? That is, as long as the oil flows through the filter media there should be no bypass regardless of the oil pressure itself.

Even with the bypass opening at the correct delta pressure, there is no why to really know if the oil flow has not compromised the mechanical integrity of the filters paper media.
Many times the paper will split at a pleat, and oil will just then flow unfiltered through the split and on through the housing, into the engine.

Has anyone ever cut their old filter housing apart removed the paper media, and inspected it for any signs of a failure?:lmao:

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Great discussion here. I am trying to follow along but you all know a bit more about this then myself. If I get it, the bypass opens when the pressure inside the filter gets to high is that correct? Not really if I understand it... The bypass is predicated on a delta p not a total pressure. If the inlet and outlet pressure are close then it won't bypass. If the inlet and outlet pressure are different by more than 'x' the filter should bypass.

So lets say the oil comes into the filter at say 40psi, as long as it can push through the filter media then there should be no bypass. Now lets say the oil enters at 60psi, again as long as it can flow through the filter media there should be no bypass. Is this a correct assumption? That is, as long as the oil flows through the filter media there should be no bypass regardless of the oil pressure itself. Correct, it's not the total pressure on both sides of the media that matters. It's the differential pressure from one side of the media to another...

I agree with Riverrider's point too, a split in the media could be caused by very high pressures. As a kid we hot-rodded stuff. A high-pressure oil pump in a SB Chevy may exceed 100psi at high rpm. A huge filter or better yet twin filters was imperative or the media would just split due to the high volume of oil being forced through at very high rate. No extraordinary volume of bypass would occur (in theory) because the exit pressure was close to the inlet pressure.

 

[chayos00]

Many use the 4Runner V8 filter on their V6 with great success. I do and they fit great. There's a larger K&N that some people use with good luck too, I forget the part #.

In fact a huge Fram PH8A (Motorcraft FL1A, Pure One 30001 etc.) fits. The 'danger' with spinning on the big filter is very few have a super high quality anti-drainback valve. When the 4Runner is parked for any length of time the filter drains out and you get a dry, rattly start because the filter has to refill prior to the engine getting oiled. Don't believe me? Study up at the FJC forum...
:cheers:

Standard filter size for my 08 V6
PureONE PL10241

Larger filter
PureONE PL20195

I just switched to the second filter listed and when I did the switch side by side the PL20195 was a bit longer than the PL10241.

Just found this here

The Purolator specs show that:

PL20195
O.D. 2.98
Height 4.74
Thread Pitch UNF-2B
Threads 3/4-16
Relief Valve P.S.I. 12-15

PL10241
O.D. 2.98
Height 3.36
Thread Pitch UNF-2B
Threads 3/4-16
Relief Valve P.S.I. 12-15

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Standard filter size for my 08 V6
PureONE PL10241

Larger filter
PureONE PL20195

I just switched to the second filter listed and when I did the switch side by side the PL20195 was a bit longer than the PL10241.

Just found this here

The Purolator specs show that:

PL20195
O.D. 2.98
Height 4.74
Thread Pitch UNF-2B
Threads 3/4-16
Relief Valve P.S.I. 12-15

PL10241
O.D. 2.98
Height 3.36
Thread Pitch UNF-2B
Threads 3/4-16
Relief Valve P.S.I. 12-15

Very cool... Any noise on start if it's been sitting a while? Do you feel pretty sure the anti-drainback valve is holding the oil in the filter? I ask because of a huge post at the FJC forum where guys were trying the PL30001 (basically a fat version of the PL20195). The PL30001 was draining out and allowing for slight delays in oil pressure (light out) and some engine rattle on start, especially in the cold. Many abandon the fat cousin of the PL20195 based on this.

Anti-drainback valve quality seems to vary quite a bit even within the same manufacturer, maybe you're onto something with the 20195. The K&N HP2005 might be another good choice but the bypass pressure is a touch higher which is scary to me (based on Frenchie's experience). The Fram 3600 uses a 12psi bypass. Maybe one of the new 6x in 3600 would be good (if they even make it). IMHO, larger media means you can add safety by opting for a lower bypass pressure.

I am very interested in a bigger filter. To that end I have two to try: Toyota 15600-41010 (aka 90915-TD004) from an earlier Land-Cruiser. I fear this filter may have drainback issues. we'll see. Next is a Baldwin BT215 (type BT215 in the left and then "find crosses"; click the link to get specs). It has a very fine media, is the same size as your PL20195, has an ok bypass pressure AND has a standpipe (internally) in addition to the ant-drainback valve. I suspect the combo of the standpipe and the anti-drainback valve will mitigate any filter draining issues quite well. I think the Purolator L30138 may have a standpipe too... Still researching that.

In short I believe a big filter is an attractive idea for our V6 T4R's. I also have every reason to believe selecting one is tricky due to the 4th gen V6's apparent 'fussiness' with regard to both bypass and drainback.

 

[chayos00]

Very cool... Any noise on start if it's been sitting a while? Do you feel pretty sure the anti-drainback valve is holding the oil in the filter? I ask because of a huge post at the FJC forum where guys were trying the PL30001 (basically a fat version of the PL20195). The PL30001 was draining out and allowing for slight delays in oil pressure (light out) and some engine rattle on start, especially in the cold. Many abandon the fat cousin of the PL20195 based on this.

Anti-drainback valve quality seems to vary quite a bit even within the same manufacturer, maybe you're onto something with the 20195. The K&N HP2005 might be another good choice but the bypass pressure is a touch higher which is scary to me (based on Frenchie's experience). The Fram 3600 uses a 12psi bypass. Maybe one of the new 6x in 3600 would be good (if they even make it). IMHO, larger media means you can add safety by opting for a lower bypass pressure.

I am very interested in a bigger filter. To that end I have two to try: Toyota 15600-41010 (aka 90915-TD004) from an earlier Land-Cruiser. I fear this filter may have drainback issues. we'll see. Next is a Baldwin BT215 (type BT215 in the left and then "find crosses"; click the link to get specs). It has a very fine media, is the same size as your PL20195, has an ok bypass pressure AND has a standpipe (internally) in addition to the ant-drainback valve. I suspect the combo of the standpipe and the anti-drainback valve will mitigate any filter draining issues quite well. I think the Purolator L30138 may have a standpipe too... Still researching that.

In short I believe a big filter is an attractive idea for our V6 T4R's. I also have every reason to believe selecting one is tricky due to the 4th gen V6's apparent 'fussiness' with regard to both bypass and drainback.

At the beginning of June I flew out of town and had my truck parked at the airport for 2 weeks. I noticed nothing funny about starting it back up. For the other 4.5K miles this "new" filter has, I've had no noise or any funny issues as of yet. As far as the anti drain back, I have no idea if it works or not. My maintenance light is starting to blink again telling me it's almost time for another oil change. So I'll leave it parked overnight when I do the change and see if the filter still has oil in it when I take it off. I would imagine if one Purolator filter works why wouldn't the other if it supposedly has the same specs.

The 94 Ranger that I had used that PL30001 filter, but then again it was mounted hanging in the down position.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

At the beginning of June I flew out of town and had my truck parked at the airport for 2 weeks. I noticed nothing funny about starting it back up. For the other 4.5K miles this "new" filter has, I've had no noise or any funny issues as of yet. As far as the anti drain back, I have no idea if it works or not. My maintenance light is starting to blink again telling me it's almost time for another oil change. So I'll leave it parked overnight when I do the change and see if the filter still has oil in it when I take it off. I would imagine if one Purolator filter works why wouldn't the other if it supposedly has the same specs. You would think so but it doesn't seem to... Why? No idea. I agree with you though, you'd think the PL30001 and the 20195 would have the same anti-drainback valve.

The 94 Ranger that I had used that PL30001 filter, but then again it was mounted hanging in the down position. One of the family cars growing up had a Chrysler slant 6. It used the same filter but upside down. Some drained, some didn't, all had a check-valve.

:cheers:

 

[riceandpho]

im using the m1-209 filter, its just longer a little, no problems with using that filter for the last 4 oil changes i did. i think mobil one recommended the m1-102 filter. the m1-209 is just a lil longer but has the same psi as the others.
Current Vehicle:
Year: 2007
Make: Toyota
Model: 4Runner
Engine Type: 6cyl. 4.0Liter Naturally Aspirated

Filter matches for the vehicle you selected:
Mobil 1
Mobil 1 Model M1102
Other options
Champion Model PH2835
Fram Model PH3614
Fram Model TG3614

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Ok, obviously this topic fascinates me and few others

I have been researching a bit. If I got the story straight Hastings made/makes the Amsoil EAO57 filter. It appears from the Amsoil TSB and Frenchie's tale confirm the issue is that the bypass pressure is set too high.

Interestingly if you go to the Hastings site and cross the 4Runners original 90915-20004 filter it comes up with the LF494. The LF494, unfortunately, has a bypass rating of 20psi. When you look up the 90915-yzzd3 it crosses to the same LF494. The odd thing is when you look by application it lists the LF589, a 14psi bypass filter??? The whole problem looks like a GIGO issue. Somebody knew 20psi wasn't a good idea.

I have played on the other brands sites and some 1GRFE filters have a 8-11psi bypass, some in the 14-17psi range; none set at 20psi. It didn't matter whether I crossed OE filters or did a look-up.

Other than the Hastings/Baldwin site has anyone seen a bypass spec for the 90915-20004 or 90915-yzzd3? If indeed the OE filters are 20psi do they need to re-evaluate as they continually push us towards lighter and lighter oil!
:cheers:

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

At the beginning of June I flew out of town and had my truck parked at the airport for 2 weeks. I noticed nothing funny about starting it back up. For the other 4.5K miles this "new" filter has, I've had no noise or any funny issues as of yet. As far as the anti drain back, I have no idea if it works or not. My maintenance light is starting to blink again telling me it's almost time for another oil change. So I'll leave it parked overnight when I do the change and see if the filter still has oil in it when I take it off. I would imagine if one Purolator filter works why wouldn't the other if it supposedly has the same specs.

The 94 Ranger that I had used that PL30001 filter, but then again it was mounted hanging in the down position.

Any update on what you found when changing your oil? I just ordered up some of the Purolator PureOne PL20195 filters (able to get them for just over $3 shipped to my front door) in preparation for the first oil change on my T4R since I bought it used. There's about 4000 miles on what the dealer receipt shows as being Mobil 1, which the previous owner insists he had changed religiously at least every 5000 miles for the 35,000 miles he owned it (lack of varnish looking through the filler neck and directly comparing this to my Dad's T4R with the same number of miles run on conventional oil seems to confirm this).

Oil change intervals really vary between vehicles and on how they are driven. Last week I posted the oil analysis done on a '98 Tacoma with 134k miles. He did everything "wrong" and walked away with little to no losses. I had switched him to synthetic (since he forgets about performing maintenance), he used the notorious basic Fram oil filter and never bothered to check the oil level or switch the filter out part way through the run, despite what I recommended. Do I think I'd get away with that on my 4Runner? I HIGHLY doubt it.

I will be pulling a few samples for analysis over the next few changes to arrive at an oil change interval that I'm comfortable with. I will be running different oil than what's in there right now so I expect the analyses to look a little different, but I should be able to spot the kind of wear that would be evident of an engine that's not getting oil quick enough on start-up.

 

[chayos00]

Any update on what you found when changing your oil? I just ordered up some of the Purolator PureOne PL20195 filters (able to get them for just over $3 shipped to my front door) in preparation for the first oil change on my T4R since I bought it used. There's about 4000 miles on what the dealer receipt shows as being Mobil 1, which the previous owner insists he had changed religiously at least every 5000 miles for the 35,000 miles he owned it (lack of varnish looking through the filler neck and directly comparing this to my Dad's T4R with the same number of miles run on conventional oil seems to confirm this).

Oil change intervals really vary between vehicles and on how they are driven. Last week I posted the oil analysis done on a '98 Tacoma with 134k miles. He did everything "wrong" and walked away with little to no losses. I had switched him to synthetic (since he forgets about performing maintenance), he used the notorious basic Fram oil filter and never bothered to check the oil level or switch the filter out part way through the run, despite what I recommended. Do I think I'd get away with that on my 4Runner? I HIGHLY doubt it.

I will be pulling a few samples for analysis over the next few changes to arrive at an oil change interval that I'm comfortable with. I will be running different oil than what's in there right now so I expect the analyses to look a little different, but I should be able to spot the kind of wear that would be evident of an engine that's not getting oil quick enough on start-up.

So since my last post on here for this topic. I have had 2 oil changes, and each time I still get my flow of oil from the filter, how much.... hard to tell. But it seems to be a good amount of fluid. I still have to take it off slowly so I don't flow over the cup. All in all, larger filter media can't be worse for it.