Pelfreybilt - See Update on Last Page

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indy500driver said:
I thought I should chime in here and forgive me for the newb status on post counts, and again for not reading the whole thread... I don't know if this has been stated already regarding the customers that paid via credit/debit card and have not received their products...

I am in the Merchant Account business, I am a high level risk management expert in relation to Visa/MasterCard/Amex/Discover member bank rules and regulations...

Pelfreybilt had a merchant account, and I am sure their bank has shut it down by now, even though this surely already has happened or will happen, the bank that underwrote the merchant account is responsible for all the transactions, regardless of whether or not Pelfrey declares official bankruptcy.

Part of the guarantee that consumers get from the card brands (V, MC, D & Amex) and the member banks issuing cards to their customers, i.e. your credit or debit card, is that you can "chargeback" or "dispute" the transaction if you have not received your order, and the rules change when there is an advance payment for product orders, so if your own bank says you can't dispute because of the age of the transaction, you need to say to them that it was advance payment for a product and typically you then have up to 365 days, and in some cases, 545 days from the original transaction.

Just know that not every bank support for disputing transactions is versed in the fine print and different types of disputes, so know that you paid for a product to be made, and then delivered at an advance date, and now the merchant (Pelfrey) is put of business and refusing to deliver/refund, this also is relevant for merchandise that was flawed...
Click to expand...

I was trying to go that route with a chargeback also but my cc company policy is that you needed to file the dispute within 180 days, given they've had my payment since January 26th I'm well beyond that.

-$6,947.18 USD is on the line that I prepaid for 2 dual swing rears, they collected for the bumpers, coating, sales tax, and freight. I'm going to take a visit to State Board and see if anything can be done also since they collected sales tax. Currently roaming the boards, fb groups and ig for info as this is beyond frustrating.
 
Sooooooo, this means no upcoming group buys?

haha, saw their IG post on why and what, but like you all said. Their reasoning is too weak to believe and mounting (PayPal) claims have been already filed.

mrblah is exactly correct, they still have a solid foundation to restart as another company. Lay low for a while and magically reappear as the re-inventors of the overland market and the fanboi hype is ignited.

They file for business licenses, lease-purchase agreements on their shop/property, permits, and other public records that can be found in the county recorder, planning commission, etc. Post all their names.

Pelfrey has all the chances to right their wrongs and come clean with full disclosure to their customers. If they don't.....well....get ready for the burn.
 
1984d said:
I was trying to go that route with a chargeback also but my cc company policy is that you needed to file the dispute within 180 days, given they've had my payment since January 26th I'm well beyond that.

-$6,947.18 USD is on the line that I prepaid for 2 dual swing rears, they collected for the bumpers, coating, sales tax, and freight. I'm going to take a visit to State Board and see if anything can be done also since they collected sales tax. Currently roaming the boards, fb groups and ig for info as this is beyond frustrating.
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Wow that’s a lot. I would not wait more than 3 months for a bumper. That’s ridiculous. No one should pay full amount and sales tax for 6 + months. I think the norm should be 25% non refundable deposit if you change your mind to place an order. Not full payment and wait 6+ months. They are crooks. Simple as that.
 
I have zero ties to this or anyone involved, and I really hate to bask in the schadenfreude, but....

When I learned they were sponsoring those choads from Fieldcraft Survival, I kinda hoped it would blow up in their faces.


Now 3 months later I feel bad for that, and everyone who got hosed. Guess C4 or SSO will be betting my money when I'm ready for a bumper.
 
I'm curious about the "paid in cash" comments. Did you physically hand over dollar bills? Because a debit card transaction has the same protection as your credit card. Checks are a little more complicated, but essentially have the same protection. Call your bank and dispute.

PayPal has buyer protection, but it is slow and crap. If your PayPal transaction was 100% funded from a checking account, dispute it with your bank (or both places since PayPal doesn't do anything with your claim for the first 20 days). If your bank refunds within 20 days, cancel the dispute with PayPal.

This is one sad story. I hope everyone is able to recover as much as possible.

Okki
 
Okki said:
I'm curious about the "paid in cash" comments. Did you physically hand over dollar bills? Because a debit card transaction has the same protection as your credit card. Checks are a little more complicated, but essentially have the same protection. Call your bank and dispute.

PayPal has buyer protection, but it is slow and crap. If your PayPal transaction was 100% funded from a checking account, dispute it with your bank (or both places since PayPal doesn't do anything with your claim for the first 20 days). If your bank refunds within 20 days, cancel the dispute with PayPal.

This is one sad story. I hope everyone is able to recover as much as possible.

Okki
Click to expand...

I paid via ACH per their request. If there's a way to dispute it I'd love to know about it
 
ChrisJHarney said:
I want to say first that I am nobody on this forum, in fact I only started lurking and signed up this last January, but have come to appreciate many long time posters with the insight and time to post some very helpful and useful advice. I am a long time trail rider but only started 4 wheeling seriously in 2016, before that it was dirt bikes and quads. I have camped all my life, but I’ve never overlanded (sic). I do, however, go on road trips and trail rides where I’m out for a week at a time. All this is beside the point, but I figure I might as well introduce myself before I write something that is terribly long and may be extremely boring.

Anyway, I have been monitoring this situation since the first SOS press release last week. I too have product and services hanging in the balance, so this is not just someone else coming to the defense of the Pelfrey family. In fact, let me start out by saying that I TOTALLY understand the anger and frustration many of you who have been waiting a very long time for product are feeling and expressing on here and other forums. Although, to be honest, I have to admit Tacoma World has you beat by the sheer ridiculousness of how they are handling the Pelfreybilt thread (spoiler alert, there will be A LOT of pictures of dogs and bbq meat awaiting). Anyway, I felt compelled to write something of an insight in to how something like this could have happened to such a well known, well liked, and seemingly uber-successful company like Pelfreybilt. Please note, these are my observations and opinions based on information I have received from Tyler and Satin in the brief talks I’ve had with them since this all went down. I in no way have the depth of understanding of exact events that led to this. Conversely, this is also not wild speculation either, just what I know and can surmise from what I know.

Sometimes in business the perfect storm hits in the most unexpected and detrimental way. Release date gets extended on an important product, steel tariffs take hold and increase production costs, orders drop for a month so investors get spooked, R&D work/marketing costs over extend the budget, all of these things can can dry up even the most robust company coffers. And when shit hits the fan, usually the man at the top catches the flak. And that would be Tyler Pelfrey. Many of you know him, many of you don’t, so if you don’t, here’s a basic surmise of what I know of the man. He is a creative genius, a perfectionist, extremely humble, and socially averse. This can be both a blessing and a curse. If his personality were that of Elon Musk, Pelfreybilt would be doing just fine, as he would be tweeting and updating every week, and people (customers and investors) would be excited and OK with the wait times and hiccups to get what will be the best product on the market (yes I realize this is just my opinion, yours may vary). As it is, he spends his time in the lab, working out bugs, and begrudgingly going to these “overland festivals” to promote product. He is unassuming, kind, gentle, and detrimentally ethical. In all of our conversations I have never heard him utter a single negative word about ANY other vendor, period. He has a respect for his competitors that is apparently lacking in return even in this boutique industry, given the amount of back stabbing that happened as soon as word dropped about this (seems as though people often forget that text messages can be screen shot and sent). This year, for many construction and fabrication businesses, is going to end worse than it started for a variety of reasons. I won’t get political, but a lot is going on in the world and America that is going to make it very difficult for a lot of hard working people to continue living the way they have the past few years of this economic high. Brace yourself. But I digress. Tyler Pelfrey, while being extremely good at what he does, has a few areas on the business side of his venture that contributed to this situation, as well as a few external, unfortunate factors that came into play right at the worst time, that sealed the deal, and so here we are now. Thankfully, all of the personal areas of deficit can be remedied, the external, only time will tell. But being the best usually helps. Here are a few of the factors that I thought of that could have contributed to this situation.

1. Perfectionism at it’s best (worst): Again, I know that a lot of people waiting for their product don’t know the man behind the design and production process, and I will admit that if I were in YOUR shoes, I would feel just as anxious, upset, and frustrated. And while I have only known him for a couple years, we both talked shop A LOT during our outings. Please know that I’m not defending the business model as much as I’m trying to impart a sense of who he is. Tyler is a perfectionist, and a man who takes a great amount of pride in not only what kind of product he puts his name on, but HOW that product is designed and built. We talked extensively back in May of 2017 about the design process and production of their 5th gen front plate bumper, and how much effort and frustration went into making that bumper (my words and opinions) a work of art. Function with form. We talked about customer service (this is just before Pelfreybilt exploded with new work, and a couple months before they expanded to the new shop) and how difficult it is to keep up personally with every customer, and how sometimes there is just not pleasing everyone. It’s a toll on the psyche that I know very well being in the service industry myself. While Satin and Michael are extremely caring and customer oriented, there is only so much that two people can do to keep up on updates (more on this later) Ultimately, (again, this is my interpretation of the situation) his perfectionism delayed the release of the 5th gen dual swing out, when it should have been ready to rock back around Jan. 2018. It was good back then. It was really good, and it worked (I saw videos of them testing the swing out and latch). BUT, it wasn’t perfect (to Tyler). I’ve learned in my business that sometimes it doesn’t NEED to be perfect to sell. I’ve watched fellow contractors go under very quickly because they were just never satisfied with their own work, and “fixed” things that were just fine, and ended up eating all the profit out of the job. Well for Pelfreybilt, those badly needed funds got pushed further into the future while cash flow slowly slipped away.

2. R&D work is expensive. Period. You are spending money that you are hoping turns into a product that people want. You are trying to do it better, and you are trying to be first out to kill the competition. Well, when you have 10 projects that are 90% done, you aren’t making any money off of any of them until you get them out to market. I know Pelfreybilt was working on a lot of projects, 3rd gen and 4th gen rear dual bumpers, 4th and 5th gen skids, plus a whole Tundra line of parts. That’s a lot, especially when you’re flagship bumper has been delayed almost 8 months, and that is badly needed revenue that would be gravy in the matter of a year.

3. Communication. Is. Key. They dropped the ball, and admit as much. There is nothing that gets people frothing at the mouth more than not having emails and calls returned. Going back to the Musk analogy, nothing buys you precious time than communicating and being open and honest about what is going on with a product that you expect at a certain time. Even group emails or social media posts would be better than nothing. Details about what’s being worked on or why there is a delay is also helpful. In the moment, when you have a million things going on and hundreds of people wanting updates, I know it’s difficult to find the time to do that, but it is absolute key. If there is one common theme amongst angry customers on this and other threads, it’s that the lack of communication was the most frustrating part.

4. Growth management: Being excited you have 25 orders a day coming in is a good problem to have. Not so good? Having to tell people there is a really long wait. Really not good? Having to tell people “sorry, we are just so behind right now that we aren’t accepting any new orders until we are caught up”. Will you lose that sale? Maybe? But maybe not, if they are willing to wait for something they really want. But what is worse is taking every order you can and then finding yourself in an unmanageable hole. Tesla took I believe 500,000 preorders for the Model 3, which was a huge cash injection for them. But that was back in 2016!!!!!! And they are just starting to ramp up production. They lost around 65,000 orders due to the wait and various other factors. If they didn’t have the backing of Musk as well as the extremely excited group of investors they do, Tesla would just be the next Fiskar Karma, bought out and reproduced. When you don’t have the cash that hundreds of millionaires backing your company affords you, one must be more prudent in taking orders for something that isn’t ready yet.

5. Material price increases: I’ve heard the line “well price increase wasn’t THAT much, it shouldn’t have affected the profit margin by a whole lot”. Well when you’re talking about a product that is still in pre-production, with pre-orders taken at a specific price point, money still being burned through to make sure that everything is absolutely perfect, even a 10% material increase is substantial and puts you in the red. For me, finished copper wiring has increased over 30% this year. So have finished steel products like my outlet boxes I use in almost every home I work in. If I were selling jobs last year that I wasn’t going to get to until this year, my profit would be GONE. Construction is in full bloom right now, and so is interest for LUXURY items, like bumpers. But what happens when American contractors and fabricators go under water and take their employees down with them? All of a sudden there’s no more cash flow. People stop purchasing these items because it was barely in reach of their finances to begin with, and so demand diminishes. More companies that rely on these contractors and fabricators to purchase their services (laser cutters, welders, powder coat) are left with outstanding invoices, and so the ripple effect continues.

6. Which brings me to my last observation. Google “sales down 2018”. Across the board, sales have been down almost EVERYWHERE, and the “overland” community is no exception. In fact, I would bet that the first place sales would be down would be for luxury items and vacations. There’s a storm brewing and when it hits if you’re not on top, you’re going to drown. Pelfreybilt WAS on top, as far as I can tell. Highly regarded, top quality products, HISTORICALLY good customer service (we’ll say pre-June 2018). Companies don’t grow as fast as they do without putting out top shelf stuff. When sales drop and prices increase, investors freak out and pull their wallets back in. Be ready for more of your beloved boutique shops to close shop in the next year if policies don’t change.

Perfect storm. There was nothing devious or deceptive going on over at Pelfreybilt with people’s money. What was happening was a whole lot of product development and not so much of new product production (due to a variety of factors). This is not unheard of, and while it sucks, and frustrating, it’s not illegal. Ill-advised, most definitely. But they weren’t using pre-order money to fund the new development, they were burning through investor cash and credit to get product development done and production up and running. Take this rear bumper for example. It was well past initial development stage before they announced pre-order opportunities, in fact it was in a working state, just not fine tuned enough (for Tyler) to be put out there yet. They weren’t selling a product they didn’t have, they were selling an opportunity to be first in line when it dropped. It’s done, it’s finished, and it’s installed on several vehicles. Unfortunately, now they need more money to get production back up and running and orders fulfilled. Call it what you will, bad business planning, optimistic outlook, or shear bad timing due to external factors. Optimism sometimes runs faster than rationality. Again, this is not a defense of the business model Pelfreybilt was using, as current events show us was unsustainable. This is a defense of Tyler and Satin as people, who have both lost EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, trying to bring the best product to this community. If you think they took your money and ran, you are sorely mistaken. They, like all of us who pre-ordered their rear bumper, went all in, and ended up short by about 3 months. The 5th gen bumper is production ready and there are a few ready to be shipped, hopefully still sitting there at the shop waiting for some cash injection to ship out. As well as about 50 Taco bumpers, etc.

I want to be very clear that I am fully aware of how frustrated and upset many PB customers are because of this debacle, and I want all those people to understand that, like their social media posts have said, there is a plan, but it’s contingent on many things that I simply don’t have the clearance to ask, or talk, about. I did talk to Tyler and Satin briefly last night, and they are devastated that this is happening. They care deeply about both their customers, as well as the employees that were working for them. Their only concern at this point is to get the production lines back up and get customers orders filled as quickly as possible. Tyler won’t even be drawing a salary as part of the start up plan. This is not about continuing as they were, this is about humbly asking to be given the chance to make good on their word. I’m sure they will, after a decision is made on Tuesday, release a full statement about the future.

In closing, I’m not foolish enough to think I know all the answers to this problem, I am simply trying to be more analytical and understanding of the bigger picture. I wanted to share some of the information that I’ve been given, as well as share my opinions on the matter, based off of what I know. I really hope tomorrow brings good news for both the Pelfrey’s, and all of us who are waiting on parts. Peace.
Click to expand...

Any words now [MENTION=208941]ChrisJHarney[/MENTION]?
 
Tejas said:
They knew what they were doing all along and that post on IG earlier was a shitty/cowardly way to leave things. Hey let's blame our customers and our "investors" for our failed Ponzi scheme and then play the victim and remind everyone how we molded this market in just six short years, you people should be grateful to have had the opportunity own our products, woe is us, yada yada yada."

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they don't start up again under a new name and LLC/LLP to try and pull a fast one on everyone once again. I smell some street justice in short order after the amount of money they squandered and number and type of people they pissed off.
Click to expand...

That's my thought too. I can only imagine the reaction people would have if they saw him somewhere on the trail. With as much publicity as they've gotten over the years everyone should know his face by now. They're gonna have go incognito for a long time.
 
Rome604 said:
Any words now [MENTION=208941]ChrisJHarney[/MENTION]?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I’m disappointed, in both the official response and the situation.

I’ll be filing with my CC company today, as I am one of the creditors on that very long list. Luckily my CC company, who told me last week when I first called them, that I had until the 28th to file, which is fortunate for myself and anyone who ordered parts with CC protection and within the filing time.

I’m sickened that people who paid with cash will almost certainly get screwed, or wait incredibly long for the bankruptcy process to unfold and MAYBE get something but not everything, and that is both awful and unacceptable. I will never again pay anything in full with cash until a product is produced, and I will never pay in full with CC unless the product will be finished before my time to dispute is up. No product is worth this headache.

Obviously, I was pulling for them to find a way to make it through and start producing again and make good on their debts, as were a lot of people, and that just didn’t happen.

Hopefully, this is a wake up call to a lot of vendors as well as customers.
 
Myself and the rest of the staff on TacomaWorld are keeping tabs on the situation and I'm happy to keep you guys in the loop here if we get any further info. Since there's no dedicated thread here for the discussion I'll probably just post in the info release thread under the pelfrey subforum.

And yes, I have the full court filing. No, I will not post it publicly but if you want to know if you're on the list of creditors shoot me a PM with your first/last name and I will check for you.
 
Now I know to be wary of even reputable companies regarding high dollar items! I was considering their AL bumper too.
 
What irony....
 

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1984d said:
I was trying to go that route with a chargeback also but my cc company policy is that you needed to file the dispute within 180 days, given they've had my payment since January 26th I'm well beyond that.

-$6,947.18 USD is on the line that I prepaid for 2 dual swing rears, they collected for the bumpers, coating, sales tax, and freight. I'm going to take a visit to State Board and see if anything can be done also since they collected sales tax. Currently roaming the boards, fb groups and ig for info as this is beyond frustrating.
Click to expand...
Try again and specifically cite per the card brand rules that the chargeback protection period of 180 days is extended from the original transaction date to the delivery date. And if Pelfrey extended that date, then the extension is an updated This exact situation is the 545 day exemption... original transaction date plus + 365 days + 180 days (normal dispute time allotment) = 545 days

Any rule changes by the card brands are not retroactive, they only apply from transactions moving forward, you should be covered, I will post the rules later this evening for Visa and MasterCard once I have a moment at my desk later
 
indy500driver said:
Try again and specifically cite per the card brand rules that the chargeback protection period of 180 days is extended from the original transaction date to the delivery date. And if Pelfrey extended that date, then the extension is an updated This exact situation is the 545 day exemption... original transaction date plus + 365 days + 180 days (normal dispute time allotment) = 545 days

Any rule changes by the card brands are not retroactive, they only apply from transactions moving forward, you should be covered, I will post the rules later this evening for Visa and MasterCard once I have a moment at my desk later
Click to expand...

What about an ACH transaction? Any recourse there?
 
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