Performance Chips?

[tnark]

Everyone has heard the old saying, If it sounds to good to be true it's mostly likely not. I was looking at 2 websites offering Performance chips and was thinking this may a case of to good to be true.

Here's what these site claim:

Up to +75 Horsepower
Up to +80 Ft.Lbs of Torque
Up to +8 MPG Fuel Savings
Feel the Horsepower & Torque across the entire rpm range
Improve your Towing Ability
Improve your Climbing and Passing Ability
Crisper Throttle Response
Better Fuel Economy
Help Smooth Out Your Rough Idle
Faster Off-The-Line Acceleration
DYNO Tested & Approved
Street Legal Worldwide
Saves MONEY Every Time You Fill Up Your Tank
Lifetime Replacement Warranty
100% Money-Back Guarantee!*

the first 3 really seem impressive. I don't think a cat-back exhaust system would give that much HP gain with a 8mpg gain. The price is only $60-$70. And let's not forget the anyone can install it in 15 minutes claim. So? To good to be true or does anyone have experience with these chips?

 

[DC runner]

I would have to see it to believe it.

Also. People spend several thousand dollars adding a high quality TRD turbocharger, and that adds I hear just over 100 HP.

If a 60 dollar chip REALLY added that much HP, everyone would be doing it.

SCAM_SCAM.

 

[seanzorio]

I'm not 100% sure on 4Runners, but I used to be big into the "import scene". Nearly all of those chips were not going to gain you anywhere near thoes claims. The only "tuners" I've seen that make big power are for big diesel trucks.

 

[SkylineGTRracer]

its all a scam.

 

[tnark]

I'm definitely thinking it's a scam. Figured I see if anyone had experience with these chips. One company is local here in SoCal down in Orange county, I'm calling them tomorrow to ask a boat load of questions and see if they can back their claims.

 

[MikeInNH]

You're going to get a MARGINAL increase in performance...and maybe a MARGINAL increase in torque...and in doing so you'll see a DECREASE in gas mileage.

Those chips are nothing more then a scam...

 

[450exc115]

SCAM. No naturally asperated engine that rolles off the assembly line in the last 10-20 years is capable of that much increase with just a chip or computer program.

OEM design for mixture of gas/air based on load and throttle position change. For the most part the stock programing is a little rich to "protect" the engine from melt down and to plan for manufacturing and maintenance tolerances variences while still falling in the range for passing emission requirements. Toyota does a fairly good job of balancing all three while maintaining decent fuel mileage.

 

[ClockWork]

Everyone has heard the old saying, If it sounds to good to be true it's mostly likely not. I was looking at 2 websites offering Performance chips and was thinking this may a case of to good to be true.

Here's what these site claim:

Up to +75 Horsepower
Up to +80 Ft.Lbs of Torque
Up to +8 MPG Fuel Savings
Feel the Horsepower & Torque across the entire rpm range
Improve your Towing Ability
Improve your Climbing and Passing Ability
Crisper Throttle Response
Better Fuel Economy
Help Smooth Out Your Rough Idle
Faster Off-The-Line Acceleration
DYNO Tested & Approved
Street Legal Worldwide
Saves MONEY Every Time You Fill Up Your Tank
Lifetime Replacement Warranty
100% Money-Back Guarantee!*

the first 3 really seem impressive. I don't think a cat-back exhaust system would give that much HP gain with a 8mpg gain. The price is only $60-$70. And let's not forget the anyone can install it in 15 minutes claim. So? To good to be true or does anyone have experience with these chips?

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[MikeInNH]

<b>SCAM. No naturally asperated engine that rolles off the assembly line in the last 10-20 years is capable of that much increase with just a chip or computer program. </b>

For the record..it's NOT really a new program...The program that came with vehicle is NOT changed...What is changed is table used by the program to determine proper gas/air fuel mixture. The new chips tweak those parameters to get minimal gains from the engine...

 

[DC runner]

What really irks me is how common this is.
It is a LIE, a straight up LIE. It cannot do all of those things. Even if it managed to do 1, it can't do 3. I don't know of any magic car fairy dust that gives you 70hp and INCREASED your MPG all with a f'ing chip.

That right there. The magic combo of increased power and increased MPG is what car companies spend billions in RESEARCH every year to do.

Some 60 buck ****ing chip IS NOT going to do this.
It is a lie.

What really pisses me off is that they lie knowing that most people don't get how illegal it is. We live in an internet world where we get emails every hour promising everything from a huge penis to being an overnight millionaire.

False Advertising is illegal. It is fraud. You cannot calm your product does something that it doesn't.


The guy that sold extenze... those penis "increasing" pills. Have you noticed how you don't see those commercials anymore? yea, he served jail time for it.

That it took so long annoys me. Call this place in Cali up and tell them to stop lying or you are going to the Cali Attorney's General office.


The way we stop a culture of lies and scams is to not put up with it.

 

[MikeInNH]

False Advertising is illegal. It is fraud. You cannot calm your product does something that it doesn't.

Unfortunately it happens all the time..and unfortunately very very very few are ever prosecuted for it...and if they are it's long after they've already milked MILLIONS from people...

Ever hear of Kevin Trudeau??? He has had several infomercials in the past 10+ years...Every single one of his products is BOGUS....Proven to be BOGUS..yet he keeps selling them...he's still a free man...who's made MILLIONS....

As for Extenze....there are at least 10 other products on the market right now (at least based on the spam email I get every day). It takes a long time to take these slime down.

Then there's the so-called legitimate products like Slick-50...PROVEN to be complete bogus....Or the hydrogen from water devices....again just junk science....

These products are BILLION dollar a year businesses....

 

[450exc115]

<b>SCAM. No naturally asperated engine that rolles off the assembly line in the last 10-20 years is capable of that much increase with just a chip or computer program. </b>

For the record..it's NOT really a new program...The program that came with vehicle is NOT changed...What is changed is table used by the program to determine proper gas/air fuel mixture. The new chips tweak those parameters to get minimal gains from the engine...

Hmm, not sure where you got the new program idea but there are all sorts of chips and tunes.. Lots of options to pick from. Back in the early days it was either a pig back setup or new computer (MegaSquirt for instance). Later people figure out a way to crack the OEM language and make changes to timing curves, injector tables, maf table adjustments, etc. Heck now you can buy programs that will modify programs on the fly while you drive the vehicle..

That being said naturally asperated (non turbo or supercharged engines) are really running at near optimum ratios and the only way to tweak them would be to go get a dyno or road tune, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of mileage or performance. Think about it an alum engine with 4 liters cranking out 260+ HP siping fuel at 20 mpg..

 

[NJshadow93]

i heard these chips are legit but you cant get all of them at the same time. for instance it will help you get power but less gas mileage and the other way around. BUT supposedly the chip only helps when it is in combination with things such as cold air intake, exhaust, supercharger, turbocharger, etc.. apparently if you installed one of these chips on your stock set up, expect about 5 horsepower. think of it like the ipods "up to XXXXX songs, up to XXXX videos" similar, you cant have the max potential of videos AND songs. so its not exactly false advertising, more deceiving advertising.

 

[DC runner]

I agree with what you said. However, I have a legal/regulation background and the problem is American's have adopted exactly your kind of mental thinking. That or we gave up. Mind not, I am not critiquing you, simply commenting.

Deceptive advertising is FALSE advertising. As as been noted above, we kinda gave up on getting scammers due to the amount of them and the energy needed to stop them. That, however, doesn't change the fact that they are usually breaking 1 or more laws.

It works like this. Advertising doesn't need to be boring, straight facts. Courts/Society have long allowed "poetic" lic in advertising. A car ad with a sexy chick in it... that kinda stuff.

BUT when you START claiming things.. your product HAD better do it, or else you are committing fraud.

These chips usually claim they give YOU everything... that you are a car smart person and know it is bull**** doesn't negate that they are scammers.

Oh well. I guess in our world of 24 hour scams and exaggerated promises, Americans have simply accepted reality.


Deceptive is False. We shouldn't make excuses for them. Either your product does WHAT YOU SAY it does.. or it doesn't. If it DOESN'T, then you are attempting to commit fraud.

 

[MikeInNH]

Hmm, not sure where you got the new program idea but there are all sorts of chips and tunes..

Probably working 30+ years as a software engineer and software architect..and can actually understand the specs. The programming for these systems are fairly simple (although the performance chip manufacturers will make you think they are)..The software in most smart phones are far more sophisticated then software that controls your engine....I've designed and written systems far more complicated then these systems. Basically the programs (all manufacturers use the same basic type program)...is...the ECU (or CPU) has dozens of inputs from different sensors on the car. Many times a second the data from the sensors are calculated and analyzed. Then the ECU looks at a table to determine the air/mix and timing. This table information is contained in the performance chips. Most automotive ECU's use a DSP (Digital Signal Processor) chip...which is a lot different then the CPU chip you find in your home computer. The Performance chips are NOT CPU's...they just contain the loop up information the ECU uses. So by adjusting the information in these tables..you can adjust a vehicles performance (but not much).

HowStuffWorks "How Fuel Injection Systems Work"


A new chip is NOT the same as an ECU.

 

[MikeInNH]

I agree with what you said. However, I have a legal/regulation background and the problem is American's have adopted exactly your kind of mental thinking. That or we gave up. Mind not, I am not critiquing you, simply commenting.

I haven't adopted any type of thinking....Nor am I making any excuses for them..I firmly believe that these products are BOGUS..and the people behind them should be sent to jail for fraud...If you have a legal background then can you explain to me WHY it's NOT happening??? Can you explain to me why Kevin Trudeau is still walking around a free man?? I really want to know. I'm all for locking him up 20+ years.

 

[DC runner]

I wasn't speaking to you. I was referring to the post before me. Please don't get offended. My point was simply that daily inundation with continuously over the top claims by every product has made us tone deaf to it.

That doesn't change the technical legality of the action. We over look crimes ALL the time. We also over prosecute other crimes. It ebb's and flow's.

Why it happens is a product of stretched budgets and other priorities.

Our only real power is as consumers and exercising choice. Not shopping at those places.

Also you villain was locked up for a time in the 1990's. As to why he keeps going, appears he is making a 1st Amendment claim. Who knows.

Even our legal system has given up. Too large a tidal wave.

 

[450exc115]

A new chip is NOT the same as an ECU.

Back in the begining of electronic Fuel injection people use to swap out physical chips that contained the tables you refered too. The Audi and Mitsubishi ECUs all started off as swapping chips.. Hence the term came from "Getting chipped", I've physically added EPROM sockets to Audi boards so I could install a chip.

Fast forward to today and we have more sophisticated ECU or PCMs with a lot more capability such that with the right interface and program you can tweak and modify parameters on the fly.. This is the most common methoed of tunning with the use of a "programmer" or access software.

There are "stand alone" full on ECU you can buy available to the public, most likely not for a Toyota 4runner but they do exsist for other platforms and are used often for vehicles that need more capablity that might not be offered by the normal factory ECU. MegaSquirt, Haltech, etc

Most of these cheap "chips" or black boxes that you connect between your MAF or O2 senors are just resistors that change the output volatage of the given sensor they are connected to telling the ECU to look at a different value with in the given table.

With 30 years of software engineer and archecture you must have seen the nearly the whole development that is now the software field. I so glad I stuck to mechanical as I don't have to deal with all that cloud theory archetectural crap forced upon the software community.

 

[MikeInNH]

Back in the begining of electronic Fuel injection people use to swap out physical chips that contained the tables you refered too.

The original chips used some 20 years were basically very very simple DSP chips. And MOST back then were NOT table driven...but the programming was so unsophisticated it wasn't difficult to back engineer the programming. The only way you could get better performance was to RE-PROGRAM them. It wasn't until later years when the ECU controlled more then just the fuel injection system that companies had to adopt a more complex system. ECU's today contain the programming...and another prom( or eprom) contains the tables used by the program. This is the only chip can be swapped out with an aftermarket chip. The OEM programming will still be in place.

With 30 years of software engineer and archecture you must have seen the nearly the whole development that is now the software field. I so glad I stuck to mechanical as I don't have to deal with all that cloud theory archetectural crap forced upon the software community.

Nothing is FORCED upon the software community. We adapt as we see fit. There are still companies creating desktop applications instead of web-based applications which are far better for the type of applications they are writing....Cloud computing is a very good technology that has a very good place in the market. However not everyone will adapt it.

 

[NJshadow93]

I know what you mean. But if their chip can get up to those numbers, technically, and i hate to say it, but that ad is not exactly false. No where in that ad does it say, you will get this AND this AND this etc. They kinda played with it to make the customer believe they can get all of those things with just a simple chip. But from what i previously said, installing that chip will increase power, just not even close to 75 hp...more like 3-5 hp. I remember reading on one of the sites that sells them where they mention these chips can achieve those numbers in addition to real power boosters. Don't get me wrong, those ads tick me off too because of what they expect people to think, but they dont actually say you will get those increases at the same time.