Please help me explore suspension options.

[Matters]

Hi everyone,

First of all I would like to apologize for a generic question that I could most likely answer myself were I not pressed for time. I'm usually a forum addict for these kind of things and love researching my hobbies. Up until last summer I owned a 2011 Trail. I moved to a bigger city and didn't need the 4Runner so I sold it to my dad. Fast forward a year and I totaled my car a couple weeks ago and have decided to move back to MT where the car also happens to be located. In a series of fast decisions my dad has decided to buy a new 4Runner and I'm planning on buying the 2011 back. I decided this would be a great time to finally switch to 285's and do some suspension mods. The problem is that my dads new car is arriving in the next week or two and he is switching to 17" wheels and wants the tires he recently put on the trail. This means I need to decide on the suspension so my dad can get things swapped over immediately upon the arrival of his new car. During all of this I'm packing and moving back to MT and just don't have the time to research a bunch of suspension options and would really appreciate some help.

Here are my goals:

Ability to run 285's with the stock rims. I most likely won't be adding spacers.

I mainly need more ground clearance as I hike and camp a great deal in remote areas. I don't do any serious off-roading at this time but want a system with the potential for more modifications in the future once I decide what I really want.

Price needs to be below $800 at this time with cheaper being even better. Between the recent wreck of my last car and moving back to Montana I'm extremely tight on cash.

Reliability and ride (both on and off road) are very important to me.

All suggestions are welcome and thanks to anyone in advance for the help.

Matt

 

[jwkilgore]

Does the $800 include tires, or is it only for the lift?

If it includes tires, then most likely you'll be limited to a Daystar spacer lift (~$150) unless you get a really good deal on tires.

Otherwise, and assuming everything else is stock (no extra weight from bumpers, armor, etc.), the best option will be Bilstein 5100's all around with a $50 rear spacer. 5100's are $360 shipped from TAP: 4Runner5thGen5100Set - Bilstein 5100 Complete SET - Total Automotive Performance - Your Source for Auto Parts and Accessories

If you still want to spend more, consider upgrading to Wheeler or Dobinson's rear springs instead of a spacer. Or maybe UCA's, but that will likely break the $800 limit and may compromise the "reliability" requirement.

Edit: Just saw where Dobinson has really increased their options here in the States (they're based down-under). Looks promising.

 

[JSparky]

If I understand your situation right, you're getting your 4Runner back but without tires?

Given that scenario and the amount of $$ available, I'd be prone to suggest a spacer lift, top hat spacer up front and maybe new coils and shocks out back. That'll let you fit 33's and then you can upgrade the front later on.

 

[CF_Machete]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/165065-5th-gen-4runner-lift-buyers-guide.html

Additionally you can run 285/70/17s on a non lifted 2014+ 4runner if you drop the front mudflaps, push the fender liner forward and trim the bottom of the bumper. Other than the mud flaps, it will look stock. You'll have minor rubbing on the body mount in at full lock... mostly in reverse.

I recommend General Grabber AT2s. Cheaper that BFG KO2s and I've had great experiences with them.

This should buy you some time to get a decent lift. Buy once, cry once.

 

[Matters]

Sorry! Cost is for the lift only.

Matt

 

[Crikeymike]

Here are my goals:

Ability to run 285's with the stock rims. I most likely won't be adding spacers.

On a budget with things tight the way they are, look in the for sale section and find a good used lift. Then slow down later and buy exactly what would be best for you. Our suspension is $790 plus shipping for all new, but with a bigger lift, you may need new UCA's. Plus you have KDSS. Don't forget about that when doing the install.

 

[Matters]

I don't think that will work out so well, unless you have a really loud stereo and won't hear the rubbing

On a budget with things tight the way they are, look in the for sale section and find a good used lift. Then slow down later and buy exactly what would be best for you. Our suspension is $790 plus shipping for all new, but with a bigger lift, you may need new UCA's. Plus you have KDSS. Don't forget about that when doing the install.

What exactly won't work?

Matt

 

[Crikeymike]

What exactly won't work?

Matt

I had 285's rubbing on a 3" lift with stock wheels and
wheel spacers, then changed wheels, got the right alignment, and made it "ok" on the road, but it can still hit offroad. Definitely didnt need those wheel spacers on there.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...r-5th-gen-tire-fitment-guide.html#post1550444

 

[Matters]

It's going to rub bad. I had 285's rubbing on a 3" lift with wheel spacers, then changed wheels, got the right alignment, and made it "ok" on the road, but it can still hit offroad.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...r-5th-gen-tire-fitment-guide.html#post1550444

I'm a bit confused now. During my previous research I thought I remembered reading that spacers can increase rubbing, hence me leaning toward not using them. Isn't their a huge amount of 5th gens running 285's with a 2-3" lift? Are you saying all of those cars have issues with bad rubbing? Thanks for the tire size link.

Thanks for the other responses as well everyone.

Matt

 

[Crikeymike]

I dont think you are familiar with 4runners (or IFS in general) if you wrote this. Just saying... read that link you posted. You'll probably learn something.

285's on stock TE wheels with spacers and an unbalanced 3" lift, when I bought the truck, (forgot to put that in there) so I had to do things to fix it. Wish I'd bought a stock unmodified truck. Plus the front tires were scalloped out super bad since the UCA's were stock and it had never been aligned. So new tires, chose to change the wheels and new lift, and now it's good.

Been running IFS trucks for years, but thanks for the comments anyway. :shrug:

 

[CF_Machete]

I'm a bit confused now. During my previous research I thought I remembered reading that spacers can increase rubbing, hence me leaning toward not using them. Isn't their a huge amount of 5th gens running 285's with a 2-3" lift? Are you saying all of those cars have issues with bad rubbing? Thanks for the tire size link.

Thanks for the other responses as well everyone.

Matt

Yes, "wheel spacers" will increase rubbing on the body mount and may require a BMC (body mount chop).

A spacer lift, is a cheaper alternative to longer shock and/ or stiffer/ longer springs.

Check my "Garage link" I'm running 2 1/2 in the front and 2 rear with 285/70/17s. I had the tires installed before the lift and was able to get away with them on pavement for a while. Off road would have been murder on them.

 

[Jetboy]

The basic rules of the 150 platform and tires:


1. Your lift will make no difference in tire size or fitment unless you change control arms as part of the lift (long travel or bracket lift). 285s fit stock with minor plastic trimming. 285's fit with a 3" lift with minor plastic trimming. 295's and above generally require body mount modification and more depending on size.

2. Wider offset wheels make rubbing worse. The rub points are on the outer corners of the tires at full lock. That means the further out the tire is from the spindle pivot the more it will rub. Keep your OEM wheels or wheels with the same offset. Spacers = rubbing.

3. The higher you lift the worse your ride quality. This is a physical property of the control arm geometry in the IFS. The greater the static angle the greater the transfer of energy to the frame from each bump that cannot physically be changed by shock tuning.

4. 150 platform has limited caster adjustment built into the lower control arm - it's marginal at stock height. For lifts over aprox. 1.5" you should consider upper control arms. You can get alignment reasonable at 2+ inches on some vehicles, but you cannot get to 4* of caster which is ideal for best highway manners.

4.5 DON'T BUY EBAY UPPER CONTROL ARMS (search my name and see how mine failed - it's not worth risking someone's life).

5. Trail with KDSS is the best model. Every other model is basically just a yaris.



Your budget is not enough for long travel. So... any lift you want. They'll all fit the same size tire. And you can fit the same size tire without any lift too. The lift will only change the static ride height of your IFS suspension, not the distance from the contact points or the tire's travel radius. It only changes where the compression cycle starts. So take your pick of any of the lifts in your budget. For me - I would buy front 6112 front shocks and set them at plus 1.75 and add 1" poly spacers in the rear with 5100 rear shocks. That should fit in your budget and probably give you the best ride you can get for under $800.

Good luck!

 

[Jetboy]

285's on stock TE wheels with spacers and an unbalanced 3" lift, when I bought the truck, (forgot to put that in there) so I had to do things to fix it. Wish I'd bought a stock unmodified truck. Plus the front tires were scalloped out super bad since the UCA's were stock and it had never been aligned. So new tires, chose to change the wheels and new lift, and now it's good.

Been running IFS trucks for years, but thanks for the comments anyway. :shrug:

You should know that IFS lifts that retain the stock control arms make no difference in tire fitment. You sell lifts for god's sake. This is universal across all IFS vehicles.

 

[Matters]

Great responses! A lot of this is bringing back memories of researching suspension mods back in 2012 when I was considering some changes. However, I never learned much about how the control arms play into it all, so thanks for the lesson. Would my options change greatly with a jump to a $1,000 budget?

Matt

 

[Crikeymike]

You should know that IFS lifts that retain the stock control arms make no difference in tire fitment. You sell lifts for my dear Lord and savior, his excellence's sake. This is universal studios across all IFS vehicles.

You're right, that's something I learned 20 years ago with my first Macpherson strut Suzuki, and I tell people that same thing several times per week. Luckily we get the benefit of an upper control arm in these vehicles to at least.

I don't sell lift kits, I sell suspension systems.

 

[Jetboy]

Great responses! A lot of this is bringing back memories of researching suspension mods back in 2012 when I was considering some changes. However, I never learned much about how the control arms play into it all, so thanks for the lesson. Would my options change greatly with a jump to a $1,000 budget?

Matt

Honestly - no probably not. For basic upgrades there's basically a few options that come in a variety of flavors. But they fall in 3 categories.

The first are spacers. They're cheap and keep your OEM springs and shocks.

The second are the replacement 2" shocks. These come in a variety of flavors but essentially they're bigger than stock pistons - usually monotube design - and may or may not replace your OEM springs. The most common by far is the bilstein 5100. They're a good budget option. The 6112's I put in the same category although they're 2.5" shocks with new springs (for the front). The 6112's are a larger shock with softer dampening and generally reported as having better ride quality. There are a lot of other options in this group. Most are in your price range. The rear shocks are typically smooth body rear version of the same thing and you can use poly spacers or springs for lift height of your choice. Most of these are in your budget. I don't think going from $800-1000 will make a meaningful difference here.

The third version are the 2.5" coilovers with adjustable height. These are the Fox, King, Icon, SAW, ?? They're pretty much all the same thing with a different color. Choose your favorite color and go with it. Personally I have fox. I would probably buy King next time for better tech support. I'd expect to spend in the range of $2500 for this group of suspension upgrades.

Beyond this is the world of higher dollar long travel, axle swap, etc.

 

[Vinsil]

I'm real happy with my Dobinsons setup. It's close to your budget and from what your describing for use, it fits your needs.

I'm honestly disappointed in my Bilstein's. I've had them on multiple rigs over the years and have always suggested them...my current 5100's on my Ram, one is leaking and both ate the bushings in less than 15k. My truck tows, not off roads with the exception of fire service roads. So...quality is lacking in my current experience.

Others are happy though so take it for what it's worth.

 

[Jetboy]

You're right, that's something I learned 20 years ago with my first Macpherson strut Suzuki, and I tell people that same thing several times per week. Luckily we get the benefit of an upper control arm in these vehicles to at least.

I don't sell lift kits, I sell suspension systems.

I was a little harsh with my comments. Sorry about that. I was kinda in "fight mode" yesterday.

Do you sell the monotube setups in the USA? Based on the exchange rate they'd be another option in the $1500USD range that would bridge the gap from the more basic setup to the full 2.5" sets.

For most people I think this would be a sweet spot. Very few of us actually need the remote reservoir and it doesn't seem to be necessary to move the floating piston for physical limitations on space in the body on either end. I have them and IMO they're a total waste of money and a PITA to deal with locating. But they look cool.... Anyway what was a "must have" for me was height adjustability on the vehicle for the front. So threaded body and ability to adjust height without pulling the coilovers out. I really didn't need a 2.5" shock. But there's not much out there that occupies the market space between $1000 and $2500. Bilstein dropped the ball big time by not threading the 6112 series. The Fox 2.0 front coilovers are threaded - but not adjustable without removing.

I also prefer rubber bushings over uniball ends - but I'm kinda locked in to the Fox uniballs for now.

 

[Crikeymike]

I was a little harsh with my comments. Sorry about that. I was kinda in "fight mode" yesterday.

Do you sell the monotube setups in the USA? Based on the exchange rate they'd be another option in the $1500USD range that would bridge the gap from the more basic setup to the full 2.5" sets.

For most people I think this would be a sweet spot. Very few of us actually need the remote reservoir and it doesn't seem to be necessary to move the floating piston for physical limitations on space in the body on either end. I have them and IMO they're a total waste of money and a PITA to deal with locating. But they look cool.... Anyway what was a "must have" for me was height adjustability on the vehicle for the front. So threaded body and ability to adjust height without pulling the coilovers out. I really didn't need a 2.5" shock. But there's not much out there that occupies the market space between $1000 and $2500. Bilstein dropped the ball big time by not threading the 6112 series. The Fox 2.0 front coilovers are threaded - but not adjustable without removing.

I also prefer rubber bushings over uniball ends - but I'm kinda locked in to the Fox uniballs for now.

Something did seem a little off yesterday, online in general. No worries mate.

We have a few shock projects running right now and one is the monotube non-resi strut version as well. I've attached a photo. These are for a Hilux, but they give you an idea. Resi's are great and all and help with big travel suspension, like solid front axle trucks, and on the rear ends of most 4x4's, but on IFS vehicles it may not always be needed based on the limited amount of wheel travel. Plus, depending on the type of driving that people want to do, they simply don't really need it. Also losing the resi costs less, so it can be sold for less.

Yes, we have sold a few of the MRR (Monotube Remote Resi) setups here, but all as special orders so far. 4 of those MRR's with coils front and rear is $1650. The non-resi version, like on the Hilux, are $260 ea compared to $350 ea on the front, with a fully threaded body. So we are excited to put those out for the 4Runners soon.

A dealer of ours out in Texas is doing a build right now with our full MRR suspension on his GX470. Anyone interested can check that out here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/239204-dobinsons-mrr-have-arrived.html

 

[Jetboy]

Awesome!

For the OP - this is what I would seriously consider ^. Buy the two fronts in non resi version when they're available for the 5th gen for $520ish, buy rear shocks for ? and rear spacers for now. Then upgrade to rear springs as you can afford it later. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GX470 probably doesn't fit due to the lower control arm bolt being 12mm on the 120 platform and 14mm on the 150. I don't know what Tacoma's use. So you'd need a 5th gen specific front set.