possible recall?

[usmcvet]

I have a 2015 SR5p that has been leaking oil from engine since I got it. Toyota just informed me it was a defect form the factory with a poorly poured cylinder head and that there were 4 other known cases. I saw my vehicle on Friday and it is completely torn apart. It is under warranty but I'm not sure that I feel comfortable driving with a rebuilt engine so I am lobbying to get a replacement vehicle. any advice on how to proceed? has any body else dealt with something similar. Also it does not quite meet the lemon laws in my state but I am trying that route as well as have a call into corporate.
Thanks in advance for the help and advice.

Concerned Devil Dog

 

[Ezlife45]

Wouldn't bother me a whole bunch but i sure would want the dealer to come up with something for my inconvenience, free service for 2 more years, etc.

 

[Taco04]

So are they just swapping the heads? If so I wouldn't have any worries that is far from being a rebuilt motor. I do agree you should be compensated in some way for the inconvenience.
Out of curiosity where were the heads leaking oil? This info could be helpful for others that might encounter this.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Recalls involve safety concerns involving death tolls. This would be more considered a Technical Service Bulletin. And with only 4 (supposed) known cases, I don't think it would even be a TSB at this point.

 

[Hellamatic]

Replacement vehicle is absolutely not going to happen. If they fixed it, it's fine - no need to feel uncomfortable.

 

[wfo9]

I would not get too excited about a new head. It's probably not a recall item (unless a really bad leak where the motor can catch fire....)

Also, I'd be surprised if it is a bad casting... Oil leaks like that are almost always an assembly issue. I know the tundras are famous for a leak at the cam tower due to improper assembly....

i think people with these types of problems early on can push Toyota for an extended platinum warranty.

 

[Lexusbstrdchild]

Definitely some type of extended warranty. Free oil changes wouldn't cut it if it were me. Seriously doubt a new vehicle is in order.

 

[usmcvet]

I would not get too excited about a new head. It's probably not a recall item (unless a really bad leak where the motor can catch fire....)

Also, I'd be surprised if it is a bad casting... Oil leaks like that are almost always an assembly issue. I know the tundras are famous for a leak at the cam tower due to improper assembly....

i think people with these types of problems early on can push Toyota for an extended platinum warranty.

It definitely was a bad cast. I saw the head and it looked like styrofoam. Also sorry for the mistake about labeling it a possible recall but when I talked to corporate that is what they were referring to it as. I'm an aircraft mech hydraulics and airframes so I don't know a lot about engines but I'm not an idiot either. I will agree that a new vehicle is a long shot but when you consider that they will take my vehicle certify it and resell it I'm sure they will end up doing well. Also after having all my rubber components covered in oil I'm sure the aren't the same. Plus they won't let me see if there was other damage to the inside of the engine caused by the faulty head.

 

[rennur]

Talk to the servicing dealer; they may hook you up a good deal towards a new one. It wouldn't hurt to see what they can do trading it in.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I doubt if there was any damage done if oil was leaking into the combustion chamber, worst case it carboned up the inside a bit (if it was significant enough it would have hydrolocked the engine). The only rubber components I would be concerned about getting dripped on with oil would be the serpentine belt. Everything else on the engine is for the most part designed to seal/contact/resist engine oil. As for the poor casting, I did hear in passing about a very narrow band of cylinder heads that had that issue. But from what I heard it was a very small amount of cylinder heads and they were taking care of them on a case by case basis.

Why do you feel unsafe with the repair?

 

[Granth77]

I can't believe people are saying the dealer should give you a free warranty, years of oil changes, etc. This is not the dealer's fault! The dealer didn't cast the heads. Can't you just be happy with having it fixed? Why is everyone always out for getting all sorts of stuff for free. It's under warranty. Get it fixed and move on with life.

 

[wfo9]

[MENTION=134247]usmcvet[/MENTION]

Can you explain the symptoms to help clarify and possibly help others who encounter a similar issue.

A cylinder head looking like styrofoam sounds pretty crazy. I've never heard of anything like that on a non ported factory head. I've seen imperfections in castings cause gasket leaks... but a little welding and machining usually fixes it good as new.

If it was just external oil leaks, I would not be too concerned about the long term impacts...If it was burning oil internally via the combustion chamber, I would be much more concerned. That will clog up the catalytic converters and have several other potential long term impacts. Inspection of the pistons with the head off should clarify if there was any internal leaks....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=134247]usmcvet[/MENTION]

Can you explain the symptoms to help clarify and possibly help others who encounter a similar issue.

A cylinder head looking like styrofoam sounds pretty crazy. I've never heard of anything like that on a non ported factory head. I've seen imperfections in castings cause gasket leaks... but a little welding and machining usually fixes it good as new.

If it was just external oil leaks, I would not be too concerned about the long term impacts...If it was burning oil internally via the combustion chamber, I would be much more concerned. That will clog up the catalytic converters and have several other potential long term impacts. Inspection of the pistons with the head off should clarify if there was any internal leaks....

To be fair, if there was significant amounts of unburned hydrocarbons getting into the Catalytic Converter; enough to start to clog it up, the ECM would have tripped some DTCs regarding efficiency as it's pretty sensitive or at the very least thrown a rich code. While a Catalytic Converter is easily damaged, you can actually "burn" them out to bring them back to life sometimes. That's basically how Diesels clean their version of a 3-way catalytic converter. What destroys catalytic converters is stuff like raw fuel burning in them or excessive coolant in them, all stuff that would set DTCs and affect drivability. Keep in mind that vehicles that utilize high compression and/or Atkinson style combustion like the Prius or many European cars regularly puke engine oil into the intakes and through the engine and catalytic converter with relatively little issue.

 

[wfo9]

To be fair, if there was significant amounts of unburned hydrocarbons getting into the Catalytic Converter; enough to start to clog it up, the ECM would have tripped some DTCs regarding efficiency as it's pretty sensitive or at the very least thrown a rich code. While a Catalytic Converter is easily damaged, you can actually "burn" them out to bring them back to life sometimes. That's basically how Diesels clean their version of a 3-way catalytic converter. What destroys catalytic converters is stuff like raw fuel burning in them or excessive coolant in them, all stuff that would set DTCs and affect drivability. Keep in mind that vehicles that utilize high compression and/or Atkinson style combustion like the Prius or many European cars regularly puke engine oil into the intakes and through the engine and catalytic converter with relatively little issue.

I agree, It won't go bad immediately and they all see a little oil via PCV... but it is a very expensive component that will eventually go bad and an obvious mfg flaw that caused oil in the combustion chamber could shorten the lifespan significantly. It would at least be a solid argument for an extended warranty.... In other words, it would bother me personally a bit. If it was just external leaks I would be much less concerned.

 

[usmcvet]

Thanks for all of the advice. I will keep everyone apprised of the results. Corporate is sticking to their guns on warranty repair being the only avenue of approach. Having a hard time getting the dealership to tell me exactly what was damaged. still in the shop so I guess we will see how long it takes. as for why am I concerned why not just except the fix? $37k should answer that question. If you were purchasing a 2015 which would you pay more for? one that had engine work or one that had no issues? I think the answer should be clear but to each their own.

 

[usmcvet]

I can't believe people are saying the dealer should give you a free warranty, years of oil changes, etc. This is not the dealer's fault! The dealer didn't cast the heads. Can't you just be happy with having it fixed? Why is everyone always out for getting all sorts of stuff for free. It's under warranty. Get it fixed and move on with life.

Granth it has nothing to do with getting something for free. Its about holding the corporation to a standard. That is why we all shell out a lot of $ to buy a Toyota. you hope that they are reliable and free of defect. what happens when my warranty is up? who knows how much damage it has caused and what the future holds. I would feel better with a truck that didn't have engine issues. that being said there is probably no happy solution and I will have to shell out some more cash.

 

[thecalm_7]

OP, I wish you luck in your rebuild. It sucks. Just went through it with the wife's Lexus IS250. I'll say my piece and I don't want to start trouble/arguments, so here goes.

IS250 under warranty. We blew through the warranty in a minute. We frequently complained of nasty idle at lights. Lexus knew it, no fix, no fix, still no fix. Its the FPR, Lexus replaced for free after we went through a few out of pocket. Still rough idle, well, now its the piston rings. 5 weeks to rebuild the motor, driving a Hyundai Elantra. Never in 5 weeks could they come up with a more suited car. There were issues and smells with the rental. It was not suitable for her job. Piston rings replaced. Car returned to us. Now numerous oil leaks, broken clips, etc. Numerous trips. at 75 miles each way. Lexus gave us a sticker to put in the glovebox for extended warranty to 100k miles. After all this the dealer refuses to give a fair trade as the motor has been rebuilt. It shows on the service records and carfax too. So lost a few sales to it and got some low ball offers.

For me, this speaks poorly in that Lexus wont value their work as "good as new/used" They did the work, not Jeb the shade tree mechanic, and Lexus wont stand by its labor. No thanks.

My advice, get it in writing that this work wont affect your trade in at the dealer that worked it. After all was done, 11 trips to the dealer, a lousy trade in value, and finally got to speak to a Regional rep, he was a tool. Give us all 5's, we did fix it. Yes, but 11 trips and nearly 3 months of hell. Dont go to Lexus of Clearwater.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Granth it has nothing to do with getting something for free. Its about holding the corporation to a standard. That is why we all shell out a lot of $ to buy a Toyota. you hope that they are reliable and free of defect. what happens when my warranty is up? who knows how much damage it has caused and what the future holds. I would feel better with a truck that didn't have engine issues. that being said there is probably no happy solution and I will have to shell out some more cash.

The reality is that that logic is somewhat flawed, it would mean that warranty has no place; because the very act of any defect and/or issue would mean that the vehicle no longer has "original" parts and must decrease in value. Thus a 38k 4Runner drops in value because your corner dash trim was replaced due to a defect and now the entire vehicle must be bought back.

Warranty work under factory warranty should not affect the value of the vehicle because the vehicle should be restored to "as new" condition for that particular component. Unless the dealership and/or Toyota believes otherwise, that should be in writing for this repair being done under warranty. For all intents and purposes (assuming the work is done as per Toyota's instructions and specifications) the engine should be as good as any other 5th gen on the lot.

OP, I wish you luck in your rebuild. It sucks. Just went through it with the wife's Lexus IS250. I'll say my piece and I don't want to start trouble/arguments, so here goes.

IS250 under warranty. We blew through the warranty in a minute. We frequently complained of nasty idle at lights. Lexus knew it, no fix, no fix, still no fix. Its the FPR, Lexus replaced for free after we went through a few out of pocket. Still rough idle, well, now its the piston rings. 5 weeks to rebuild the motor, driving a Hyundai Elantra. Never in 5 weeks could they come up with a more suited car. There were issues and smells with the rental. It was not suitable for her job. Piston rings replaced. Car returned to us. Now numerous oil leaks, broken clips, etc. Numerous trips. at 75 miles each way. Lexus gave us a sticker to put in the glovebox for extended warranty to 100k miles. After all this the dealer refuses to give a fair trade as the motor has been rebuilt. It shows on the service records and carfax too. So lost a few sales to it and got some low ball offers.

For me, this speaks poorly in that Lexus wont value their work as "good as new/used" They did the work, not Jeb the shade tree mechanic, and Lexus wont stand by its labor. No thanks.

My advice, get it in writing that this work wont affect your trade in at the dealer that worked it. After all was done, 11 trips to the dealer, a lousy trade in value, and finally got to speak to a Regional rep, he was a tool. Give us all 5's, we did fix it. Yes, but 11 trips and nearly 3 months of hell. Dont go to Lexus of Clearwater.

This is an example of where the customer has been failed by the dealership and the company, they did a shoddy repair and then turned around and wouldn't stand by their repair or their quality of work. I honestly would have probably put litigation against them because unless Toyota and/or the Dealer have a valid reason for why this vehicle was not correctly repaired under the 3yr/36k "bumper to bumper" warranty and why it loses value as a result; that's pretty much criminal in my book and should not be left to stand as it is.

That's my personal opinion at least, warranty (particularly factory warranty) is there to cover defects, issues, and problems as a result of the manufacturer side of things. I do not see how anyone can justify that a vehicle still under the factory warranty loses value because the company is correcting an issue that was their fault to begin with. It would mean that every campaign and every recall Toyota ever did was purposefully damaging the value of the vehicle and that every single care that was ever touched for Factory Warranty should be bought back or paid out at that value. That's just unrealistic.

 

[Jhalko]

When issues like this come up, and to me this is a serious issue, I always wonder why folks don't ask for the platinum extended warranty. You won't get a new car out of it and I personally would have the same type of reservations about long term durability. It's been awhile since I bought so I don't remember what the requirements were on those but I didn't think it cost that much and could provide piece of mind for years to come.

 

[wfo9]

I do not see how anyone can justify that a vehicle still under the factory warranty loses value because the company is correcting an issue that was their fault to begin with. It would mean that every campaign and every recall Toyota ever did was purposefully damaging the value of the vehicle and that every single care that was ever touched for Factory Warranty should be bought back or paid out at that value. That's just unrealistic.

The problem is that nobody trusts the work that dealers do when it comes to internals... It's rare enough that they never get it right. And I think we all know the track record of most dealer techs. I realize its a horrible stereotype and there are some very good detailed oriented guys out there like yourself... but the patterns have been established... I think most people trust them for bolt-ons and electronics.... but just like people don't feel confident in a body shop that rebuilds the front end of a vehicle, most don't trust a dealer that gets way down deep into the motor and breaking all the seals....

Example:My neighbor has a new Honda min-van that needed a new long block at 4k miles. Wow, what a piece of crap that thing has been ever since. It can't seem to make it a month without a major failure. And I know all of these problems can be traced back to the goof balls at the dealership, there is no way a modern vehicle like this could have been manufactured with all these built in problems. 4k new long block, 10k new AC, 15k new transmission, 20K radiator and power steering..... 25K - catalytic converter. Its sort of a joke. They just don't do these repairs enough to know what the hell they are doing. They miss steps or cross contaminate.... She still has it because it has all been fully covered, but would you want ot buy it when the warranty is up?