Realistic expectations from 4WD?

[BigBrother]

Ok, a little backstory- I live in the Northeast, and originally had a RWD Mustang. I grew up in warmer climes, so was not used to snow driving at all. I made do with my American drag racer , slipping and sliding in the winters but adjusting to it.

I intentionally switched to a 4WD (in this case, an '06 T4R) when I had the chance, expecting better traction and handling.

I've never driven a 4WD before this so I don't know what to expect, but so far it's been rather disappointing- the brakes can't be slammed, as you all know, as they stutter and push back due to all the ABS going on. So if I'm driving fast on the highway and hit a bump on one wheel when braking, I don't get an instantaneous brake, which kind of sucks.

But snow driving has been the worst- I get *somewhat* better control than with my Mustang (probably 30% better), and that damn stuttering brake anytime I need to hit it, which doesn't seem to really stop slippage all that much, just gives me a sense of losing control over my braking. All inspections have shown my brakes to be fine.

Before I get all fumy, what does 4WD realistically do? What should I expect here?

Oh and since you'll probably ask, my tires I *believe* are all weather after market ones- they were on there when I bought them and are in good shape, but are not Toyota originals.

So, your thoughts...?

EDIT- I just thought about this some more. Perhaps I have my physics mixed up 4WD should help *accelerate* in snow better, stopping is still the same (?)

 

[Loki_4Runner]

Laws of physics are the laws of physics. Given equal tires, two cars with the same ABS system that have the same weight will have the same braking performance, no matter what their drivetrain. 4WD won't help you there. I learned to drive in snow (dad's advice) like there's a champagne glass between your foot and the brake pedal. Stomp down on it, you're screwed.

4WD comes in handy when you want to accelerate. It also comes in handy taking corners, because your rear end isn't taking all the power and trying to conserve angular momentum by moving left or right instead of forward.

Incidentally, I think the "I've got 4wd so I can do ANYTHING in the snow" is why there are so many 4wd vehicles that get caught in ditches here in Texas when a moderate ice storm comes. Lots of people have 4WD and zero experience on ice. Ends poorly.

Make sure your tires are ATs. Tires are the point of contact for your entire vehicle, so they're the first and last word in terms of snow/ice handling. In my experience, HT tires are TERRIBLE in the snow. I really like my GY Wrangler Silent Armors, but to each his/her own.

 

[onewheelshort13]

Sounds like you are expecting the 4WD to be a miracle and make the vehicle feel as if it were on dry pavement.

The key is to just figure out how to drive in those conditions. The 4WD is very capable, but don't expect it to compensate for lack of good driving skills.

 

[A10MileHusker]

4WD isn't God. You can't slam on your brakes in snow and think that because you have AWD/4WD, that you're going to stop on a dime.
You'll notice the control with turns, hills, and just plain control. If you hit a puddle, your AWD will kick in and release all acceleration to that tire and you'll immediately feel the other wheel grab and keep you from skipping out or hydroplaning.
Once you get used to the AWD you'll love it but you're just looking WAY too much into it. Just relax and let it do it's work. You'll be impressed one of these days. :bigok:

Doug

 

[Annoyed]

EDIT- I just thought about this some more. Perhaps I have my physics mixed up 4WD should help *accelerate* in snow better, stopping is still the same (?)

You're starting to get the idea here.

A 4WD SUV is actually at a disadvantage when it comes to stopping, as they weigh considerably more than most cars. Your T4R weighs in about 4300 Lbs. Your Mustang weighed in about 3200Lbs, if a quick Google search is right. That's 1100 more pounds to stop, it will take longer.

More weight = more inertia, and that's that.

4WD is fantastic for slow slogging thru deep snow without getting stuck, like if you're not in the mood to shovel the driveway, and it does give you slightly better control at low driving speeds (around town, etc), but at higher speeds, it just doesn't help all that much. It's beneficial effects are outweighed by the increased vehicle mass.

In theory, the VSC system will also provide some forgiveness if you screw up and start to slide. I can't say yay or nay to this, I turn the bloody thing off anytime I'm on something slippery enough where it might come into play, (I'll drive, thank you, K.I.T.T.)

As far as tires go, at a minimum, you want A/T's rated for snow. The all-seasons suck, some more than others. I bought my T4R with Yokohama's on it, and while these are very highly rated by Consumer Reports for example, my rating says they suck, and they will be gone by next winter, probably to be replaced by BFG A/T KO's.

A good way to handle winter/slop is to remember 1 basic rule. No sudden changes in velocity or direction
Plan everything you do around that simple thing. Yes, you have to triple or quadruple your safety cushion all around the vehicle, allowing more stopping time, etc.. but if you base your driving around that one principle, you're golden.

 

[Nuke]

What everyone else said.

It's easy to assume that your 4WD vehicle can outperform 2WD vehicles in every bad weather aspect but it just isn't so.

As stated, braking is no better and often worse due to the extra weight. IMO, cornering also suffers from the same reason plus the higher profile despite the extra traction.

The real benefit is that you can slog your way thru most crappy conditions with a "steady as she goes" driving style and feel comfortable that you can get around most tie-ups by taking some crappy backroads.

I personally leave the car in 2WD no matter what UNTIL I feel I'm in trouble. This helps keep your 2WD driving skills honed and really helps you develop a feel for when you need it and when not and what you can surprisingly do in 2WD.

 

[snowjay]

Re: Re: Realistic expectations from 4WD?

A good way to handle winter/slop is to remember 1 basic rule. No sudden changes in velocity or direction
Plan everything you do around that simple thing. Yes, you have to triple or quadruple your safety cushion all around the vehicle, allowing more stopping time, etc.. but if you base your driving around that one principle, you're golden.

This.

Drive with finesse, not like you are trying to be the world rally champion.

I've never had an issue stopping or otherwise in a 4wd vehicle, but I understand it's limitations and I drive accordingly. Countless times I've been motoring down the highway at 30-40mph due to the conditions only to have people blow past be doing 70 like the pavement was dry, only to see them later on having learned an expensive physics lesson crunched up against a guardrail or in a snowbank.

Another thing that irks me is when people start blaming equipment for their shortcomings. I have Cross-Terrains on my 4R and they do fine in the snow (for around town/commuting). I've read countless times around the web from people complaining how bad they are, assuming I'm sure that the tires should make it feel like the vehicle is on dry pavement. I needed to get them replaced this year because they were down to the tread wear indicators but unfortunately didn't get it done before our first big snowfall. My drive home from work goes over some hilly terrain and I can't tell you the number of cars that were stuck on the hills and couldn't just get up them. Here I come along with my supposedly bad worn tires and motored up said hills with no problem. I even had to stop on several of the hills because of stuck cars littered everywhere. I just kept on going. The tires are fine for their intended purpose, it's the drivers that are the problem.

It's all about knowing what you have and how to use it. Remember slow and steady wins the race.

 

[BigBrother]

Guys, thank you ALL, this has been enormously helpful!!

You raised two points which also piqued my interest-

1. Re: tires, I was thinking soon of switching to the standard Dunlop At/20s that come on the Sports and Limiteds. A good call?

2. You mentioned turning off VSC- I don't have my manual handy- how much of that system (including ABS, VSC, etc.) is changeable on my end without modifications? While I may want to keep some for slip control, the push back on the brake at every subtle pothole is really starting to get to me....

 

[Nuke]

Guys, thank you ALL, this has been enormously helpful!!

You raised two points which also piqued my interest-

1. Re: tires, I was thinking soon of switching to the standard Dunlop At/20s that come on the Sports and Limiteds. A good call?

....

NOOOOOOO!!!

The AT20's are trash compared to what else is available. Go to tirerack.com and look up the AT20, then go to the comparison chart. The AT20 is ranked 66th out of 69 tires (the last time I looked). It's fine for light snow providing you don't push it but I wouldn't buy them as a replacement.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=HAS

 

[Ducman]

winter driving

As was already mentioned, the truck weights a lot more than the Stang so it will take longer to stop. I also don't think the brakes in the 4R are anything special, they seem adequate at best.

Oh and DO NOT BUY Dunflops :bash:
I have been VERY happy with my Revos this winter...

Most importantly...

What make and model tires do you currently have?

 

[HB 4X4]

Haha Dunflops....

I took mine off with about 3K miles on them if that helps give you a perspective on them.

I'd recommend a set of all terrain tires. The only 2 I would ever put on my truck are Nitto Terra Grapplers (currently on my 2nd set) and BFG AT KO's.

 

[ALLEGRO]

I think that your 30% projection over your Mustang is not realistic.

I challenge you to drive your Mustang BEHIND a 4WD 4Runner, on the same roads and conditions, requiring the exact same response from the drivers. I think you will quickly find out that there is a MAJOR difference between the two, far and exceding the 30% margin you earlier allowed.

The short-comings of 4WD are all physics. These are laws that do not bend or break and cannot be ignored.

JMHO

 

[Will816]

Guys, thank you ALL, this has been enormously helpful!!

You raised two points which also piqued my interest-

1. Re: tires, I was thinking soon of switching to the standard Dunlop At/20s that come on the Sports and Limiteds. A good call?

2. You mentioned turning off VSC- I don't have my manual handy- how much of that system (including ABS, VSC, etc.) is changeable on my end without modifications? While I may want to keep some for slip control, the push back on the brake at every subtle pothole is really starting to get to me....

Don't get the Dunflops. The only quality tire they make is for dirtbikes.

If you push the center lock button (the one on the left of the steering wheel with the x in the center), you will disable VSC. Just remember that it CANNOT be driven on pavement when that has been pushed. The push back on the peddle is the result of Toyota's excellent ABS with electronic brake force distribution. Newer Ford have similar systems, but they do not lock the peddle in place while it is working. Its a safety thing to let you know that it is indeed doing its job, and I will bet my next paycheck that you cannot stop the vehicle faster on your own. These systems WORK! VSC works, the traction control works, they all do a great job, but the only reason VSC and TRAC are needed is because people push their vehicles too far. ABS with brake force distribution is a different story, its a great thing to have because you, the driver, cannot outperform it.

Picture this: You're driving along on a road with ice under one side of the vehicle and pavement under the other and need to hit the brakes. With ABS or no ABS, the tires all get the same amount of braking force, so the side on ice tries to keep going since it can't stop like the side on pavement can. And you spin into the ditch. With brake force distribution, each tire is monitored for traction and it will send appropriate brake force to each wheel to keep you going straight as an arrow.

 

[BigBrother]

Guys, excellent feedback all around. Thanks so much for all the help and happy driving!

 

[SubSonic]

To add to the good stuff that Will816 said, I'd also say that if you're indeed talking about a 4th Gen T4R (maybe older ones too, 4th Gen is my first T4R), the braking system is predictive. It supposedly reads all the various meters around the truck (including wheel speed at each corner) and can predict if you are trying to give the truck 100% braking power, even when you aren't applying 100% pedal pressure. At that point, it will induce its own "panic stop", going to 100% computer-applied braking pressure and then hand off the rest of the procedure to its ABS system to bring it to a safe stop.

That's *probably* why you don't feel totally in control when you stomp on your brakes - because you aren't. Don't stomp if you don't have to - the truck will read it as a panic stop before you ever get to 100% pedal pressure and will take over. As someone else mentioned, increase your braking distance (safety cushion) in bad conditions, it's prudent operational procedure to begin with, and will keep the 4R's computer out of your vehicle's operations any more than needed.

Good stuff as far as I can tell. It is certainly the most hi-tech ABS system I've ever owned - even if I can slightly feel the system sampling my braking pressure from time to time, through the brake pedal (as a very slight bump against the pedal) in harder braking situations.

 

[TeCKis300]

I've never driven a 4WD before this so I don't know what to expect, but so far it's been rather disappointing- the brakes can't be slammed, as you all know, as they stutter and push back due to all the ABS going on. So if I'm driving fast on the highway and hit a bump on one wheel when braking, I don't get an instantaneous brake, which kind of sucks.

But snow driving has been the worst- I get *somewhat* better control than with my Mustang (probably 30% better), and that damn stuttering brake anytime I need to hit it, which doesn't seem to really stop slippage all that much, just gives me a sense of losing control over my braking. All inspections have shown my brakes to be fine.

Sounds like this is your first ABS equipped vehicle. The response you are getting from your brakes is normal! They keep you in control of your vehicle under threshold braking in all conditions. ABS basically does not allow you to 'break the champagne glass' like you can in a non-ABS equipped car like your mustang. I bet you've probably been able to overbrake in that car to the point where you lose directional control or have the rear end come around? If you really need to stop, by all means, stand on the brakes and let the computer help your miss judgement...because there is absolutely no way you would have done better yourself.

Also, if you are engaging the ABS as often as you say, you really need to adjust your braking style or technique. Remember...'champagne glass'. Everytime it comes on, you've broken it.

Before I get all fumy, what does 4WD realistically do? What should I expect here?

You've got it in your edit. All cars are 4 wheels braking. 4WD assists in stabililty under acceleration only. ABS is what helps you brake more effectively.

You'll find that 4WD allows you to get power down to the ground more effectively, especially in traction compromised situations. And it'll put it down much more stably without as much countersteering as you're probably very familiar with from your mustang. That and you'll be much less likely to get stuck.

Enjoy the rest of the winter!

 

[LandRvr Convert]

Ok I live in Atlanta so we don't see snow too often here I admit, but I can hold my own when driving in it. I learned to drive in it with a 2WD car when I was a teen. Now I am totally spoiled driving my 4Runner with Full-Time 4WD.

A good way to slow down when driving in the snow is keep your speed down to begin with......... and when you do need to slow down, you can downshift to 3rd or 2nd gear as you are moving and not even touch the brake pedal. Increasing the distance between you and the car in front of you is a good idea too.

As another poster said, no rapid increase or decrease in speed and no drastic change in direction is a good rule of thumb too.

Also....there is a huge difference between driving ON ice and driving IN snow. Unless you have studded tires or chains, 4WD will not help much more that 2wd on ice. In snow, 4WD will make a huge difference.

Regarding your comments on the ABS pushing back when you slam on the brakes, I think the system is incredible! It has saved me already a few times from rear-ending the guy in front of me. Each little pulse of the brake pedal pushing back on your foot is the ABS computer making hundreds of calculations per second to keep each of your 4 tires from losing grip. Same goes for the Hill Decent control......an incredibe system.

Think of the ABS and Hill Decent control like 4 separately controlled brake pedals.....one for each wheel and controlling each independently and very precisely. A really difficult thing to do with just one foot on one brake pedal.

Just my 2 cents

 

[anabolic]

4WD lets you drive on worse road conditions, but when it comes to stopping it doesn't matter if you have 4WD, AWD or 2WD, you're pretty much all going to stop the same (especially if you try to stand on the brakes).

Just remember to keep slow when the conditions are less than stellar.

 

[EH007]

This is a perfect example of someone new to driving a 4wd vehicle and thinking (at first) that it should stop better than a 2wd car in snow just because it goes better than a 2wd car in snow.

One good snow storm and that type of thinking goes right out the window!

 

[BigBrother]

Thanks so much guys- interesting stuff!!