Rear axle seal/bearing replacement
- Thread starter RS Dude
- Start date
mtbtim
Elite Member
If you actually did some research regarding the rear axle seal issue, you'd be able to understand what [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION], myself and others are trying to tell you. And, I've seen the posts from people who've experienced leaking axle seals right after getting it repaired. The axle seal was updated at one point in the past and the lip of the seal is definitely sitting more inboard towards the differential. If you blindly follow FSM for the retainer placement on the axle, like the supposed top mechanic at Toyota did with my rig, the seal will barely be riding on the machined part of the retainer or on the bevel. And, like I said before, my axle seal on my driver's side was already leaking with only 500 miles after the repair.
Nothing bad happens from flipping the direction of the retainer and it allows you to get the lip of the seal riding dead center without worrying about the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing. I had the original mechanic that worked on my rig and several other mechanics at Toyota watching the show as I asked them to perform the grease test on my driver's side axle. It showed it was riding right on the edge of the bevel and machined surface of the retainer. Over time, this leak would have gotten worse and worse until the gear oil finally made it into the brakes and let me know something was up. One of the mechanics watching got the attention of the original mechanic, pointed to me and said, "He's right and you just learned something from him" when I said the grease test should have been performed before everything was bolted back up and that the FSM spec for the retainer placement has to be adjusted due to the new seal design. So, this mechanic has been blindly putting these axles in and not verifying that the retainer placement was good. I wonder how many people are driving their 3rd Gen 4runners or Tacomas down the road with an axle seal repair that isn't going to last because of this guy.
I've learned my lesson and will not be bringing my truck back to the dealership if I can help it. Who's going to do the best job working on my truck? I am. Shop mechanics are usually working fast so they can get the job done as quick as possible so they make more money.
Do I really care how you've decided to fix your axle seal problem. Not really. I just think it's important that people get good information and somebody following this thread might actually believe your advice that there's no problems associated with the new seal design and following FSM spec for this repair.
People, just do yourself a favor and either do the grease test yourself before putting your axles back in to verify where the lip of the seal is riding on the retainer or make sure you ask your mechanic to do this for you. I was told by the Toyota dealership that the guy working on my truck was one of the best for this repair, and in reality, he sucked at this repair.
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Drcoffee
Senior Member
You are a moron or just born yesterday. I'm leaning towards the prior.
Google it!
You do realize that you asked for help. And when we give it you go off on personal attacks. I could careless if your truck rolls or not. But don't go on saying I am scaring anyone. I simply offered a different option to fix the leaking seals. And for those who have exhausted themselves trying to fix their truck, they can try my procedure. and those like you that think its BS, just ignore it. Personally I think you have been a jerk and why anyone would ever help you again beats me. You act like a 13 year old. grow up.
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Not to disagree with this axle bearing seal fix theory. But I highly doubt everyone who has fixed their leaking axle flipped their retainer or did exactly what this is explaining. And by keeping it how it was, I highly doubt there were axle leaks RIGHT AWAY. Maybe another 100k.
In other words, who has fixed their axle seal, put everything back together how it was originally. And never had any issues.
In other words, who has fixed their axle seal, put everything back together how it was originally. And never had any issues.
mtbtim
Elite Member
You're right, most repairs probably kept the retainer in the same orientation but they just didn't press it on the axle as far adjusting for the new seal design. There is room to do this but the end result is the retainer is now running very close to inside of the axle housing. With the retainer flipped around, you're able to get the lip of the seal riding dead center on the retainer and not worry about the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing.
As time goes on and your axle bearings develop some play, having the seal riding close to dead center allows for the additional axle movement without causing a leak. If you were only able to just get onto the shoulder of the retainer with the lip of the seal, additional play in the bearing could cause the lip to sometimes be running on the bevel instead. Over time, this would cause the seal to fail, gear oil would make it's way into the bearing washing out the grease, destroying it, and gear oil would finally get past the outside seal and ruin your brake shoes as well.
Most people getting this repair done are normal Joes and Janes and aren't mechanically inclined. They will pay $1000-$1500 for this repair and drive happily away. [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] shared knowledge about pulling the ABS sensor to check if the seal is holding saved my butt from eating the cost of the repair and his other shared knowledge is hopefully going to keep me from having to do this repair for a long time or maybe for the rest of the life of my rig. His research is very good if you take the time to look at it.
Drcoffee
Senior Member
If this was a one off issue and I was the only one affected, I certainly would not have gone to the trouble of doing a write-up and endured all the A-holes flaming me for trying to help other members. However in researching my problem, I found dozens of threads here and on other forums with exactly the same problem going back to when these trucks were new. people getting gouged by the almighty STEALERSHIPS who walk on water and charge thousands of dollars for nothing. Click that google link up above and go page after page. Don't rely on the T4r search engine. It cant find its ass with both hands. What you will find is a loooonnngg history of this problem. But hey, its easier to sling shit than to search it out for yourself. Just like OP, just claim it doesn't exist and it doesn't.
Like I said. I was not disagreeing with this axle fix logic. But it is interested to see how many have fixed it the original way and what their results are right now. And how many people have used this method. That's all....
I didn't use this method when I did my seal. So far so good... But I'll keep an eye on my truck and if it leaks I'll definitely use this method.
I didn't use this method when I did my seal. So far so good... But I'll keep an eye on my truck and if it leaks I'll definitely use this method.
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thegipper
New member
Anyone have any opinions on my question above? If you were to find a leak early on (pulling ABS sensor) and the leak was minor, couldn't you just swap an entire axle assembly so you don't have to mess with going to a shop to seat the retainer ect? This would just be a cheap solution if someone was tight on cash. Obviously replacing the bearing and retainer is the best approach but if you could just swap in a different axle (with a no evidence of being previously washed out), that would be a good solution for those of us who are cheap asses...
Thoughts?
RS Dude
Member
If this was a problem 17 years ago, then why are you still pushing your theory. Why not just enjoy the 15 minutes of fame and bask in your past glory. This thread has 593 views so far and still not ONE person who is "talented" enough to reproduce your seal lip on bevel problem. Furthermore, Toyota didn't become the most revered and loved automaker by making it a company policy to rip off its customers on a continuing basis or secretly changing its axle seal design in the middle of the night when nobody is looking.
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What's critical is the play in the bearing. Check the play in your existing axles before going to the junkyard and comparing those axles. That way you have a point of reference. I probably wouldn't go the route of getting a junkyard axle though. The cost is roughly the same as just getting the proper bearings. The hassle is in getting the special axle tool and finding a press.
If you absolutely wanted the cheapest way without bearing replacement, you can just pry off the bearing grease seal, clean things up, and put some fresh grease in there. It should only be 1/3" full of grease. Even when the grease is washed out, there's still a long time before the bearings develop play. This should extend the life, but without fully pulling the bearing you won't be able to tell if there's pitting, heat marks, or other such failure symptoms.
thegipper
New member
Assuming you can get a good used axle from a yard for 50 bucks, which I believe I can, wouldn't it just be that price plus new seals? That seems like it would be vastly cheaper than having to buy new bearings, the retainer and paying a shop to press them on.
Again, I know it's not the ideal solution but seems like it would be a feasible one for anyone needing to fix the leak for cheap, and completely by them selves.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Again, I know it's not the ideal solution but seems like it would be a feasible one for anyone needing to fix the leak for cheap, and completely by them selves.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
A used junkyard axle costs about $40-50 here, which is roughly the same price of a new bearing from RockAuto. The bearings from RockAuto (like Timken) also comes with the retainer. You also won't know the quality of the used axle and if it has leaked in the past.
The new seals you'll have to buy anyways, so that cost is the same.
Re-using the old parts also means that you're using the OEM retainer position. So depending on if you believe RS Dude or the T4R community, it won't address the potential sealing problem of the new Toyota seal (90310-50006) design. So you might want to see if you can find the seal with the old design (90310-50001). Not sure if Toyota sells that anymore.
The new seals you'll have to buy anyways, so that cost is the same.
Re-using the old parts also means that you're using the OEM retainer position. So depending on if you believe RS Dude or the T4R community, it won't address the potential sealing problem of the new Toyota seal (90310-50006) design. So you might want to see if you can find the seal with the old design (90310-50001). Not sure if Toyota sells that anymore.
RS Dude
Member
If you are using junkyard parts, reusing old parts, and using non oem Toyota parts it is almost guaranteed you will have a leak.:violin: My recent axle repair included only new Toyota oem parts from Camelback. Parts were $320.00 for both axles...yes it is expensive!
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thegipper
New member
What is the average price to have a shop press the retainers on? Isn't this where most of the cost is?
I guess I didn't think about the fact the new seal may have issues with the old retainer position.
Also, how hard is it to press the retainer in? Could it be done with a large arbor press and a length of pipe to the desired position? Does the bearing also have to be pressed on?
Again, I know it's not the ideal situation but thought it may be a possible solution if someone was really tight on money.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
I guess I didn't think about the fact the new seal may have issues with the old retainer position.
Also, how hard is it to press the retainer in? Could it be done with a large arbor press and a length of pipe to the desired position? Does the bearing also have to be pressed on?
Again, I know it's not the ideal situation but thought it may be a possible solution if someone was really tight on money.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
RS Dude
Member
My machine shop charged me $50 per axle. So it cost me $320 parts + $100 labor. Virtually impossible to do with out a hydraulic press and correct tools.
haha, that was the whole point of the argument in this thread of which RS Dude couldn't see the point.
The old seal design works with the old retainer position. That's why our trucks have been fine for the first 15-20 years of their life. It's that Toyota changed the seal design (with a replaced part number), and now it doesn't work with the old retainer position.
I guess what you could do is use a crowbar and pry the old retainer out by 2mm, then it will seat properly and you won't have to deal with the press. So if you were tight on money, what I would do is spend the $30 on the new seals, check your old axle for play, and if it's ok then readjust the retainer + regrease the old bearings and you're good to go.
If your bearing has play, then you pretty much have to get new bearings and have those parts pressed. Going the junkyard route will just cost you more money in the long term. Do this properly now and you'll likely never have to do it again.
RS Dude
Member
Anyone stupid enough to reuse an old retainer ring that was redesigned 17 years ago deserves to have a leak.
mtbtim
Elite Member
So, I'm curious. When you took your axles to the machine shop to take the old parts off and press the new parts on, did you specify to them where you wanted the retainers to sit on the axles or did you just trust they knew what they were doing? Did you do the grease test on each side to see where the lips of the seals were riding on retainers before bolting the axles back on the housing?
I'm asking this since you're pretty much saying [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] research is BS and Toyota is the best thing since sliced bread and would never do something to hurt it's customers. Toyota redesigning things in the middle of the night? Are you serious or just posting things to annoy people? Auto manufacturers redesign parts all the time when they find an issue with them. The axle seal was redesigned by Toyota some years back. This has been confirmed by many on this forum who have done the axle seal repair and I personally talked to the parts guys at my local Toyota dealership and they also said the seal was redesigned. The problem mainly lies with the mechanics doing the job and blindly following the FSM spec without doing a grease test to confirm the retainer position is good. If a machine shop put everything back onto the axle matching what the OEM set-up was, you're going to have problems due to the redesigned seal sitting more inboard towards the differential.
So, instead of posting your opinions and blindly thinking Toyota never makes mistakes, why don't you pull your axles again, do the grease test, take pictures and prove what we're telling you is BS and your way is right.
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