Rear Axle Seals & Bearings

[psea17]

It sounds like to me you did everything perfect.

...I had a great teacher! ;-)

wonder if anyone has tried these seals: Toyota(R) Seals Archives - Yotamasters

 

[Bad Luck]

perhaps we're loading the rear axle too much?? I tow a trailer from time to time. or maybe it's how we're using it. I do forest roads probably more often than others.

or is there any chance when they revised the seals, the retainer rings were modified?

just thinking out loud.

You installed new wheel bearings so I don't think there's an overload issue. A lot of people tow more weight and more often without issue.

In my case I'm 99 percent sure it was leaking between the seal and axle housing. Most of GM seals that I've installed have a rubber ring or coating between the outside of the seal and whatever it is being installed in to seal it during install. Our Toyota axle seal doesn't have that and relies entirely on good metal to metal contact. My recommendation is to try my method of using axle sealant to install another set of axle seals. If you decide to go that route I used Permatex Gear Oil Gasket Maker. It recommends a 24 hour cure before exposing it to gear oil. I only had 3 hours to let it cure before filling my axle and driving home.

 

[mtbtim]

You installed new wheel bearings so I don't think there's an overload issue. A lot of people tow more weight and more often without issue.

In my case I'm 99 percent sure it was leaking between the seal and axle housing. Most of GM seals that I've installed have a rubber ring or coating between the outside of the seal and whatever it is being installed in to seal it during install. Our Toyota axle seal doesn't have that and relies entirely on good metal to metal contact. My recommendation is to try my method of using axle sealant to install another set of axle seals. If you decide to go that route I used Permatex Gear Oil Gasket Maker. It recommends a 24 hour cure before exposing it to gear oil. I only had 3 hours to let it cure before filling my axle and driving home.

The Toyota Red FIPG would work too.

*Toyota FIPG 1281 - (For Transmissions, Transfer Cases and Differentials)
Amazon.com: Genuine Toyota Fluid 00295-01281 Formed-in-Place Transmission Gasket - 3.5 oz. Tube: Automotive

I'm going to suggest this to my buddy Wei for him to try out as well.

 

[Drcoffee]

There is the possibility that the old gear oil is still trapped between the bearing hub and the outer dust cap, which cant be seen unless you completely disassemble the axle. It might just be still spinning out. When I did mine, I used gear oil compatible silicone sealant at the joint of the inner retainer and axle on the inboard side. i also smeared a little on the outside joint of the seal and axle housing. Anywhere it could possible leak, I sealed it. If you didnt put grease on the seal and retainer before reassembly, a dry seal will burn out in just a couple of miles. So even though the grease test shows good placement, a burned seal will still leak.

I’m not sure where Tim said to add bearing grease on the bearing, but you should be able to pop off the cover from the bearing and repack it. Its just a plastic cover. Lithium grease is preferred. Other greases like Mobil 1 grease separates and would leak out like a watery goo. Lithium is less affected by the heat of the bearing. And you dont want to overfill it like a needle bearing setup.

If you have just a slight bit of gear oil on the abs tone ring, The axle seal can’t be the source. If the oil is leaking past the Axle seal, the volume of gear oil would be large and messy.

Have you checked your brake cylinders for leaking brake fluid?

 

[Drcoffee]

i'm running the newer seals and not only did i reverse the inner retainer ring, i switched it with the outer retainer ring.

So lets talk about this. You pressed off the two retainers and reused them both? That would be a mistake. You can reuse a retainer on the outboard retainer. But you must use a new retainer on the inboard side. When that retainer is installed, it stretches And gets gouged. Its a metal to metal seal. Oil is bound to leak past it now. Since its installed, pull the axle, clean with acetone and use a gear oil compatible silicone or FIPG and seal the inner side of the retainer to the axle. Let it cure and reinstall the axle. The seal should still be good.

 

[psea17]

There is the possibility that the old gear oil is still trapped between the bearing hub and the outer dust cap, which cant be seen unless you completely disassemble the axle. It might just be still spinning out. When I did mine, I used gear oil compatible silicone sealant at the joint of the inner retainer and axle on the inboard side. i also smeared a little on the outside joint of the seal and axle housing. Anywhere it could possible leak, I sealed it. If you didnt put grease on the seal and retainer before reassembly, a dry seal will burn out in just a couple of miles. So even though the grease test shows good placement, a burned seal will still leak.

I’m not sure where Tim said to add bearing grease on the bearing, but you should be able to pop off the cover from the bearing and repack it. Its just a plastic cover. Lithium grease is preferred. Other greases like Mobil 1 grease separates and would leak out like a watery goo. Lithium is less affected by the heat of the bearing. And you dont want to overfill it like a needle bearing setup.

If you have just a slight bit of gear oil on the abs tone ring, The axle seal can’t be the source. If the oil is leaking past the Axle seal, the volume of gear oil would be large and messy.

Have you checked your brake cylinders for leaking brake fluid?

Wow Doc! A lot to consider. I didn't realize I could do a bearing job and not completely disassemble the axle. I replaced the outter dust cap as well. a small amount of grease was used on the exterior of the inner seal. A small amount was put on the inner retainer ring. i used Red 'n Tacky lithium grease for this job. I also put just a slight coat around the perimeter of the bearing to help it seat easily.

Since I checked the seating of the seal last month to the other day, it's definitely not what I would call a large mess of oil. I'm liking the idea of using a sealant. I'm going to give that a try.

 

[psea17]

So lets talk about this. You pressed off the two retainers and reused them both? That would be a mistake. You can reuse a retainer on the outboard retainer. But you must use a new retainer on the inboard side. When that retainer is installed, it stretches And gets gouged. Its a metal to metal seal. Oil is bound to leak past it now. Since its installed, pull the axle, clean with acetone and use a gear oil compatible silicone or FIPG and seal the inner side of the retainer to the axle. Let it cure and reinstall the axle. The seal should still be good.

certainly a possibility. but i have to admit, the inner ring definitely needed a press to get it in place. it wasn't like it was loose or anything. inspection didn't show any signs of gouging on the inside surfaces of either ring, nor the axle shaft.

I think I have some FIPG. I'll give that a try.

Appreciate EVERYONE'S HELP AND INPUT...A LOT!

 

[mtbtim]

So lets talk about this. You pressed off the two retainers and reused them both? That would be a mistake. You can reuse a retainer on the outboard retainer. But you must use a new retainer on the inboard side. When that retainer is installed, it stretches And gets gouged. Its a metal to metal seal. Oil is bound to leak past it now. Since its installed, pull the axle, clean with acetone and use a gear oil compatible silicone or FIPG and seal the inner side of the retainer to the axle. Let it cure and reinstall the axle. The seal should still be good.

I never considered this being an issue reusing the retainers, because like the OP said, and from my experience of doing this job over a dozen times, even though the retainer has been pressed on, pulled off and then now pressed on again, could gear oil really get past the retainer? I've never noticed any damage to the inner diameter of the retainer. It's smooth as can be. And, since it's still a press fit and still requires force to be installed, I don't see how gear oil is able to get past. But, now you got me thinking that this is a possibility.

 

[Drcoffee]

I never considered this being an issue reusing the retainers, because like the OP said, and from my experience of doing this job over a dozen times, even though the retainer has been pressed on, pulled off and then now pressed on again, could gear oil really get past the retainer? I've never noticed any damage to the inner diameter of the retainer. It's smooth as can be. And, since it's still a press fit and still requires force to be installed, I don't see how gear oil is able to get past. But, now you got me thinking that this is a possibility.

During my research to fix my truck, I came across discussion where this could be a possible issue. If the retainer is not perfectly round, which you cant verify just by looking at it, Or a hair sized scratch occured during install or removal, yes oil can leak by it. These retainers are only $12. For me, after doing this 4 times, I wasnt thinkIng it was so much, I hope to do it again. So I sealed every possible spot it could leak from. Did it need it? I dont know. But I wanted to be sure.

 

[nathanroyse]

looking forward to doing my seals soon...

 

[mtbtim]

During my research to fix my truck, I came across discussion where this could be a possible issue. If the retainer is not perfectly round, which you cant verify just by looking at it, Or a hair sized scratch occured during install or removal, yes oil can leak by it. These retainers are only $12. For me, after doing this 4 times, I wasnt thinkIng it was so much, I hope to do it again. So I sealed every possible spot it could leak from. Did it need it? I dont know. But I wanted to be sure.

Gotcha. Well, my buddy Wei is having a leak problem on his driver side. We did everything the same on the passenger side and no leaks.

Just when I thought I couldn't learn anymore about this job, problems like this arise that get the gears turning in my head again. I thought it was perfectly safe and smart to reuse the retainers and ABS tone rings to save money, but like i said, now I'm second guessing myself.

I just pulled the ABS sensors on my 98 and sure as shit my gear oil has gotten past on the driver side but my passenger side is bone dry. I did this job 2 1/2 years ago and put approximately 17,000 miles on it since then. On both sides, just like on my buddy Wei's rig, we reused the retainers. So, why is it leaking on the driver side but not the passenger side. If reusing the retainers was not a good choice, logic says both sides should be showing signs of leaking, not just the driver side.

Anyway, safe to say I'm bummed to learn this. I've given this money saving advice to lots of people and now I'm starting to think this might have been poor advice. I'm going to get Wei over my place and we're both going to install new inner retainers and go ahead and put a new seal in as well. If this doesn't stop the leak on both of our driver sides, we'll pull the axles again and try the FIPG on the outer circumference of the seal and see if that stops it.

I updated the pinned comment for the Rear Axle Seal/Bearing Replacement (ABS Rearend) and I'm now suggesting people to reuse the ABS tone rings and outer retainers but buy new inner retainers. Until I get this figured out, I don't want anyone else having issues reusing the retainers for the inner placement.

 

[psea17]

Gotcha. Well, my buddy Wei is having a leak problem on his driver side. We did everything the same on the passenger side and no leaks.

Just when I thought I couldn't learn anymore about this job, problems like this arise that get the gears turning in my head again. I thought it was perfectly safe and smart to reuse the retainers and ABS tone rings to save money, but like i said, now I'm second guessing myself.

I just pulled the ABS sensors on my 98 and sure as shit my gear oil has gotten past on the driver side but my passenger side is bone dry. I did this job 2 1/2 years ago and put approximately 17,000 miles on it since then. On both sides, just like on my buddy Wei's rig, we reused the retainers. So, why is it leaking on the driver side but not the passenger side. If reusing the retainers was not a good choice, logic says both sides should be showing signs of leaking, not just the driver side.

Anyway, safe to say I'm bummed to learn this. I've given this money saving advice to lots of people and now I'm starting to think this might have been poor advice. I'm going to get Wei over my place and we're both going to install new inner retainers and go ahead and put a new seal in as well. If this doesn't stop the leak on both of our driver sides, we'll pull the axles again and try the FIPG on the outer circumference of the seal and see if that stops it.

I updated the pinned comment for the Rear Axle Seal/Bearing Replacement (ABS Rearend) and I'm now suggesting people to reuse the ABS tone rings and outer retainers but buy new inner retainers. Until I get this figured out, I don't want anyone else having issues reusing the retainers for the inner placement.

naaaa! don't feel bad! we all know this generation of 4runners has problems with leaking seals. they didn't all follow one video. im INCREDIBLY APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR VIDEOS!

I'm going to do this in stages. first fipg on the inner seal where the seal meets the housing. I'll give it some time, recheck it and report back. my rear brakes/drums are just about toast. so it can't do much more harm. if that doesn't do it, I'll do the same on the seal side of the inner retainer ring.

 

[mtbtim]

naaaa! don't feel bad! we all know this generation of 4runners has problems with leaking seals. they didn't all follow one video. im INCREDIBLY APPRECIATIVE OF YOUR VIDEOS!

I'm going to do this in stages. first fipg on the inner seal where the seal meets the housing. I'll give it some time, recheck it and report back. my rear brakes/drums are just about toast. so it can't do much more harm. if that doesn't do it, I'll do the same on the seal side of the inner retainer ring.

[MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] theory was right. I pulled my driver side axle today and removed the inner retainer and ABS tone ring. I did a careful examination of the inside diameter of the inner retainer and there is noticeable gouging to the surface. It's obvious the retainers, ABS tone rings and inner races for the bearings are made of a softer metal than the axle itself. Gear oil most likely got past the metal to metal connection of the inner retainer and axle via the grooves left in the retainer from the removal process. I did take measurements of the inner diameter of the old retainer and the new retainer and got the same measurement, 39.8mm. So, it's not that the old retainer has stretched out some. The problem is the grooves that are left in the inner surface of the retainer that allow a pathway of gear oil to get past and accumulate in the axle housing cavity that will ultimately contaminate the bearing washing out the grease and eventually make it into the brakes.

After 2.5 years and 17k miles, some gear oil made it's way through but not a ton. But, it was enough to contaminate the bearing and a little bit made it into the brake drum. It wasn't the usual huge mess of gear oil we see. There was just some sludge on the inner side of the drum from the gear oil mixing with the brake dust. Should I have replaced the brake shoes? Yeah, I should have but I sanded them down a bit and called it good. I did repack the bearing with some Redline CV-2 Synthetic grease. I pried off the bearing cover, cleaned up the residual mixture of grease and gear oil, and then cleaned it out further with brake cleaner. I worked the fresh grease in the bearing, spun the axle, and was able to work some more of the dirty grease out. I packed some more in and spun it repeating this process until the grease looked pretty clean. Like @Dr Coffee said, I think there's a chance you could overpack it so I would spin the axle, wipe off excessive grease and repeated that until the spinning wasn't causing a build-up of grease to work itself out.

OP, I think you should forego swapping out a seal and applying FIPG. I'm pretty certain the pathway for the grease to get past the seal was because of reusing a retainer at the inner position. When you pull your inner retainer off, you'll see and feel the slight gouging I'm talking about.

Spinning the passenger side axle and looking into the axle housing cavity via the ABS sensor port, I can see a very tiny amount of clean looking gear oil on the ABS tone ring. So, after 17k miles, it has leaked very little. But, I'm going to pull that axle soon too and put a new inner retainer on.

I did confirm that 4mm of polished axle showing is a good measurement to go by. The witness mark on my inner retainer was closer to the inside by a 1mm so 4mm would put the seal lip dead center on the polished shoulder of the retainer. At first I thought the polished shoulder was 10mm in length, but after closer inspection, it's only 9mm long. But, anyone doing this job should verify they have a good mating of the axle seal and inner retainer by performing the sharpie test.

OP, sorry for the bad advice. I truly thought I was giving good advice for reusing both retainers. The concern in the past was always a proper mating of the seal and retainer but I never even thought that the gear oil could sneak past the metal to metal connection of the inner retainer and axle shaft. Like I said, I thought I knew everything about this job, but I learned that my advice to save people money on the parts was a bit flawed. There's obviously no penalty to reusing the ABS tone rings and outer retainers but there's potential problems with reusing the inner retainers.

 

[psea17]

No apologies needed! Easy fix. Will buy new rings and just to be safe, new seals on the chance they formed to the old inner retainer rings.

got snow in my caming area yesterday! from strong thunder storms. pretty incredible weather for a drive along the Mogollon Rim (mo-ghee-on).

Hopeful we got this solved! Appreciate everyone's input!

 

[Bad Luck]

[MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] theory was right. I pulled my driver side axle today and removed the inner retainer and ABS tone ring. I did a careful examination of the inside diameter of the inner retainer and there is noticeable gouging to the surface. It's obvious the retainers, ABS tone rings and inner races for the bearings are made of a softer metal than the axle itself. Gear oil most likely got past the metal to metal connection of the inner retainer and axle via the grooves left in the retainer from the removal process. I did take measurements of the inner diameter of the old retainer and the new retainer and got the same measurement, 39.8mm. So, it's not that the old retainer has stretched out some. The problem is the grooves that are left in the inner surface of the retainer that allow a pathway of gear oil to get past and accumulate in the axle housing cavity that will ultimately contaminate the bearing washing out the grease and eventually make it into the brakes.

After 2.5 years and 17k miles, some gear oil made it's way through but not a ton. But, it was enough to contaminate the bearing and a little bit made it into the brake drum. It wasn't the usual huge mess of gear oil we see. There was just some sludge on the inner side of the drum from the gear oil mixing with the brake dust. Should I have replaced the brake shoes? Yeah, I should have but I sanded them down a bit and called it good. I did repack the bearing with some Redline CV-2 Synthetic grease. I pried off the bearing cover, cleaned up the residual mixture of grease and gear oil, and then cleaned it out further with brake cleaner. I worked the fresh grease in the bearing, spun the axle, and was able to work some more of the dirty grease out. I packed some more in and spun it repeating this process until the grease looked pretty clean. Like @Dr Coffee said, I think there's a chance you could overpack it so I would spin the axle, wipe off excessive grease and repeated that until the spinning wasn't causing a build-up of grease to work itself out.

OP, I think you should forego swapping out a seal and applying FIPG. I'm pretty certain the pathway for the grease to get past the seal was because of reusing a retainer at the inner position. When you pull your inner retainer off, you'll see and feel the slight gouging I'm talking about.

Spinning the passenger side axle and looking into the axle housing cavity via the ABS sensor port, I can see a very tiny amount of clean looking gear oil on the ABS tone ring. So, after 17k miles, it has leaked very little. But, I'm going to pull that axle soon too and put a new inner retainer on.

I did confirm that 4mm of polished axle showing is a good measurement to go by. The witness mark on my inner retainer was closer to the inside by a 1mm so 4mm would put the seal lip dead center on the polished shoulder of the retainer. At first I thought the polished shoulder was 10mm in length, but after closer inspection, it's only 9mm long. But, anyone doing this job should verify they have a good mating of the axle seal and inner retainer by performing the sharpie test.

OP, sorry for the bad advice. I truly thought I was giving good advice for reusing both retainers. The concern in the past was always a proper mating of the seal and retainer but I never even thought that the gear oil could sneak past the metal to metal connection of the inner retainer and axle shaft. Like I said, I thought I knew everything about this job, but I learned that my advice to save people money on the parts was a bit flawed. There's obviously no penalty to reusing the ABS tone rings and outer retainers but there's potential problems with reusing the inner retainers.

I used new inner retainers and still had a leak. I'm not saying that re-using old retainers is or isn't another path for fluid to leak through, but in my case it was an axle housing/axle seal mating/sealing issue.

If someone was going to reuse the retainers then using axle/gear oil FIPG on the mating surface of the retainer and axle would probably be a wise decision. Just my thoughts on the subject, and I appreciate you taking into consideration everything in this thread and changing your recommendations to reflect the issues that some people have been having. Love the videos and keep on keeping on bud arty:

 

[mtbtim]

I used new inner retainers and still had a leak. I'm not saying that re-using old retainers is or isn't another path for fluid to leak through, but in my case it was an axle housing/axle seal mating/sealing issue.

If someone was going to reuse the retainers then using axle/gear oil FIPG on the mating surface of the retainer and axle would probably be a wise decision. Just my thoughts on the subject, and I appreciate you taking into consideration everything in this thread and changing your recommendations to reflect the issues that some people have been having. Love the videos and keep on keeping on bud arty:

I'm not ruling out what your situation was might be mine as well but from what I saw with the retainer I reused, gear oil definitely could have gotten past the metal to metal connection with the axle shaft. Common sense would say I do what you did along with replacing the inner retainer to cover all my bases, but I really want to know for sure what the culprit was and I can only do that by changing one thing at a time. I do remember that my driver side did have a previous axle seal replacement but I can't remember if mine was one of the one's I've seen where a sloppy mechanic or DIYer gouged the axle housing with a hooked puller or other tool. If the retainer swap I did doesn't fix the issue for me, I'm going to replace the seal and use some red FIPG for some extra insurance. Thanks for contributing to this discussion.

I'm going to mention your situation with the seal and how you addressed it in pinned comments for all three videos we've shot for this repair.

 

[fourfive]

Revisiting this because I found out this weekend that the driver side rear axle seal on my friends 3rd gen was leaking. We changed both sides about 4 years ago.

Want to make sure I understand the this correctly:

1. For those that suggested using FIPG to seal the mating surfaces of the seal & axle housing (red arrow) and the inner diameter of the inboard retainer where it contacts the axle (green arrow), are the arrows pointing to the correct locations you were referring too?

2. Is the green arrow the inner retainer that was suggested to be replaced?

 

[Bad Luck]

Revisiting this because I found out this weekend that the driver side rear axle seal on my friends 3rd gen was leaking. We changed both sides about 4 years ago.

Want to make sure I understand the this correctly:

1. For those that suggested using FIPG to seal the mating surfaces of the seal & axle housing (red arrow) and the inner diameter of the inboard retainer where it contacts the axle (green arrow), are the arrows pointing to the correct locations you were referring too?

2. Is the green arrow the inner retainer that was suggested to be replaced?

1) Arrows are in the correct place.

(For those that may not be able to see the diagram the location is the outer portion of the axle seal and the corresponding area of the axle tube where that seal would install. For the inner retainer, furthest from the hub and closest to the axle splines, I would apply the FIPG to the inside of the retainer as well as the polished portion if the axle shaft after installing the bearing, outer retainer, and ABS ring. After inner retainer installation and proper placement is verified I would also apply/smear a bead of FIPG where the retainer and axle shaft meet on the inboard side of it.)

2. Green arrow is pointing at the correct retainer. (For those that can not see the diagram it is the inboard retainer closest to the axle splines and furthest from the hub.)

 

[fourfive]

1) Arrows are in the correct place.

(For those that may not be able to see the diagram the location is the outer portion of the axle seal and the corresponding area of the axle tube where that seal would install. For the inner retainer, furthest from the hub and closest to the axle splines, I would apply the FIPG to the inside of the retainer as well as the polished portion if the axle shaft after installing the bearing, outer retainer, and ABS ring. After inner retainer installation and proper placement is verified I would also apply/smear a bead of FIPG where the retainer and axle shaft meet on the inboard side of it.)

2. Green arrow is pointing at the correct retainer. (For those that can not see the diagram it is the inboard retainer closest to the axle splines and furthest from the hub.)

Thanks! Will likely do all of the above.

 

[fourfive]

I updated the pinned comment for the Rear Axle Seal/Bearing Replacement (ABS Rearend) and I'm now suggesting people to reuse the ABS tone rings and outer retainers but buy new inner retainers. Until I get this figured out, I don't want anyone else having issues reusing the retainers for the inner placement.

Are the part numbers for the inner & outer retainers the same?