Rebuilt motor, New Heads, Supercharger, and Ping

[4runnerfiend]

Looking for some help on a complex situation.

Recently (today) finished installing a TRD supercharger.
From what I can tell there is a crazy amount of Ping.. thru all RPM bands.. (sounds like what my 22re sounded like when it needed a valve job.

Yes running 91 octane, yes IK22, installed supra injectors.

Back story is that I had the engine rebuilt due to a cracked head about 2 years ago from a reputable Toyota shop. 4,000.00 job. After they did the work I thought that they didn't adjust the valves right and took it back. was told they self adjust on the new heads. it persisted. did research and thought maybe it was ping. asked about it and was brushed off...

fast forward to supercharger installation. that very sound has been amplified 10 full.
supercharger is less than impressive power wise. still a gain in power.

Question is... could the new heads.. or improper installation cause ping?

looking for insight. thanks!

 

[rdruss]

Valves don't "self adjust". They may "seat in" but that would decrease lash slightly and probably not noticeable. All valves have to be set correctly when heads are installed whether hydraulic lifter or solid lifter, OHC or not, so the shop's response initially is suspect.
Someone who is supercharger install savvy will need to chime in now.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

You need to watch your air fuel ratio.

If it is detonation you can melt a hole in your pistons

You could also check your valve clearance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bmwahba46]

I think you're shooting in the dark if you dont have an AFR gauge installed. Install one and see what is going on with fueling

 

[Bad Luck]

After they did the work I thought that they didn't adjust the valves right and took it back. was told they self adjust on the new heads. it persisted. did research and thought maybe it was ping. asked about it and was brushed off...

The valves do not self adjust. These engines do not have hydraulic lifters. There's a procedure in the FSM for checking valve clearance. It's under engine mechanical then EM-4. Here's a 2000 FSM in case you don't have access to one. 2000 FSM should be pretty close for most things. 2000 4Runner FSM - Printable - Google Drive

EDIT: Make sure your are under the 5vz engine mechanical section in the FSM. Section 16

 

[phattyduck]

The 5vz has a knock sensor (or is it two?) but it totally ignores them below 3k rpm. Definitely get the knock/ping/whatever figured out before you eat up your engine!

-Charlie

 

[gamefreakgc]

Check the valve clearances, although that would not make it ping. If you were pinging N/A... there's something wrong with your engine. Perhaps the camshaft gears are off a tooth or more causing the ignition to be mechanically advanced? You can check it if do a valve clearance check. Just pull off the timing belt cover a bit so you can see the crank/camshaft position too to ensure the crank, camshaft pulley, and both camshafts are dotted up perfectly.

Your setup has been done 1000's of times and it's a solid setup. Something else is wrong here.

 

[4runnerfiend]

making progress.. vacuum leak

Found a vacuum leak thanks to a fellow FB SC group member. helped with ping and feel more power for sure. there was kind of lag that was happening at 3 k where I was expecting to feel pull.

Now on to the SC itself. I believe is the main source of noise. See video. I rebuilt the nose cone and needle bearings myself. This is the same noise it was making before I purchased it and rebuilt.

video from tonight...

- YouTube

Here is a video of the SC running on the rig I bought it off...

TRD Supercharger Sound - YouTube

 

[gamefreakgc]

Found a vacuum leak thanks to a fellow FB SC group member. helped with ping and feel more power for sure. there was kind of lag that was happening at 3 k where I was expecting to feel pull.

Now on to the SC itself. I believe is the main source of noise. See video. I rebuilt the nose cone and needle bearings myself. This is the same noise it was making before I purchased it and rebuilt.

video from tonight...

- YouTube

Here is a video of the SC running on the rig I bought it off...

TRD Supercharger Sound - YouTube

Glad you found the vacuum leak. The hose routing for the supercharger is tricky as the diagrams don't clearly show every variation of the 5VZ-FE engine (it's in 3 different Toyota models). Unfortunately your supercharger needs a rebuild. If you are short on time and money you can try just replacing the coupler, the plastic 'hockey puck' that connects the nose cone gears to the rotor pack. It can develop play and allow things to move and rattle.

 

[4runnerfiend]

Glad you found the vacuum leak. The hose routing for the supercharger is tricky as the diagrams don't clearly show every variation of the 5VZ-FE engine (it's in 3 different Toyota models). Unfortunately your supercharger needs a rebuild. If you are short on time and money you can try just replacing the coupler, the plastic 'hockey puck' that connects the nose cone gears to the rotor pack. It can develop play and allow things to move and rattle.

I did rebuild it before install. nose cone and needle bearings. could I have messed up the install? the nose is tight! but if i take and move it back and forth by hand I can hear movement.
I read up on Gadgets website and also a FB member said that there is some rotor "slap" at idle. so chalked it up to that.

Still plenty of noise coming from it when driving. I can now identify the ping at low high gear low RPM. seems like there is a differnt but similar noise happening to.

At this point I'm going to replace the fuel pump to make sure it is getting enough fuel. (have the supra injectors) and give he ECU some time to adjust. not sure how many miles that is going to be.


Edit: not Rotor slap.. "gear slack"
Per Gadget

" At idle it will make a rattling like sound. That is from gear slack in the nose drive. The supercharger uses straight cut gears in the nose drive and at idle there is no load on the gears that they tend to rattle back and forth a bit and that presents as a rattling sound. It should go away if the engine is rev-ed up just above idle. "

Maybe the gears are worn and making more noise than normal

 

[gamefreakgc]

I did rebuild it before install. nose cone and needle bearings. could I have messed up the install? the nose is tight! but if i take and move it back and forth by hand I can hear movement.
I read up on Gadgets website and also a FB member said that there is some rotor "slap" at idle. so chalked it up to that.

Still plenty of noise coming from it when driving. I can now identify the ping at low high gear low RPM. seems like there is a differnt but similar noise happening to.

At this point I'm going to replace the fuel pump to make sure it is getting enough fuel. (have the supra injectors) and give he ECU some time to adjust. not sure how many miles that is going to be.


Edit: not Rotor slap.. "gear slack"
Per Gadget

" At idle it will make a rattling like sound. That is from gear slack in the nose drive. The supercharger uses straight cut gears in the nose drive and at idle there is no load on the gears that they tend to rattle back and forth a bit and that presents as a rattling sound. It should go away if the engine is rev-ed up just above idle. "

Maybe the gears are worn and making more noise than normal

It is making more noise at idle than a fresh supercharger, that much is for sure. Even more than mine that has over 150K miles on it.

So the engine still pings, even after fixing the hose routing? Try this for me: go to your engine bay and pull the EFI fuse (not relay, fuse) in the fuse box near the battery. Keep it out for say, 30 seconds or so and then replace. Go out for a drive on the freeway if it's possible and let me know if the ping is better, or worse. Try some moderate throttle pulls like you did before in the last video, try and make it ping basically. Pulling the EFI fuse resets all learned fuel trims from the ECU and should make it run more rich since you have bigger injectors. If it still pings, there's something else at play. If it improves, yours may need a tune. I've heard of Gadget and others complain of a rare case where you get a ping happy 5VZ-FE. There seems to be no fix for it other than a piggyback and pulling a fair amount of timing anywhere on the timing map that it needs help.

A few more recommendations:

Keep ECT Power on full-time. This increases engine RPM and you'll spend less time in the "ping zone".

If you have a 96-00, overtighten the transmission kick-down cable by 2-3mm. This makes the transmission downshift under moderate throttle instead of building 5, 6, 7 PSI of boost at 2200 RPM which is guaranteed to ping. You don't want that. See below photo of my engine bay from 5 years ago. You'll see on the transmission cable (tiny photo I know) the knob on the cable is protruding from the rubber dust cap. Try it at that point. If it still wants to stay in ping city, tighten it just a hair more. Note that if you go too far the transmission may make some buzzing noises at idle and the shifts will get very harsh at low speeds. That means you've gone too far and back it off a little.

Mine isn't ping-happy but I've dealt with a lot of it since going to a smaller pulley size. There are ways to help that don't cost any money.

 

[4runnerfiend]

It is making more noise at idle than a fresh supercharger, that much is for sure. Even more than mine that has over 150K miles on it.

So the engine still pings, even after fixing the hose routing? Try this for me: go to your engine bay and pull the EFI fuse (not relay, fuse) in the fuse box near the battery. Keep it out for say, 30 seconds or so and then replace. Go out for a drive on the freeway if it's possible and let me know if the ping is better, or worse. Try some moderate throttle pulls like you did before in the last video, try and make it ping basically. Pulling the EFI fuse resets all learned fuel trims from the ECU and should make it run more rich since you have bigger injectors. If it still pings, there's something else at play. If it improves, yours may need a tune. I've heard of Gadget and others complain of a rare case where you get a ping happy 5VZ-FE. There seems to be no fix for it other than a piggyback and pulling a fair amount of timing anywhere on the timing map that it needs help.

A few more recommendations:

Keep ECT Power on full-time. This increases engine RPM and you'll spend less time in the "ping zone".

If you have a 96-00, overtighten the transmission kick-down cable by 2-3mm. This makes the transmission downshift under moderate throttle instead of building 5, 6, 7 PSI of boost at 2200 RPM which is guaranteed to ping. You don't want that. See below photo of my engine bay from 5 years ago. You'll see on the transmission cable (tiny photo I know) the knob on the cable is protruding from the rubber dust cap. Try it at that point. If it still wants to stay in ping city, tighten it just a hair more. Note that if you go too far the transmission may make some buzzing noises at idle and the shifts will get very harsh at low speeds. That means you've gone too far and back it off a little.

Mine isn't ping-happy but I've dealt with a lot of it since going to a smaller pulley size. There are ways to help that don't cost any money.

Thanks! I'll go try the EFI fuse now.

I'm getting ping at high RPM pulls also from what I can tell. I'm thinking that my fuel pump is tired, it has 300 k on it. Maybe it cannot keep up. Does that sound possible?

 

[4runnerfiend]

[MENTION=115347]gamefreakgc[/MENTION]

Here is the video. it is about the same. tons of ping
EDIT. boy that vid sucks. all I can hear is road noise/wind

September 10, 2021 - YouTube

 

[gamefreakgc]

[MENTION=115347]gamefreakgc[/MENTION]

Here is the video. it is about the same. tons of ping
EDIT. boy that vid sucks. all I can hear is road noise/wind

September 10, 2021 - YouTube

That video was very helpful. You are right, tons of ping. What's worrisome is that it pinged up high too, above 4500 RPM when you floored it, that's a very bad sign. It's that high RPM ping that kills engines. I would stay out of boost entirely until we can find a fix as the last thing that you want is another rebuild.

I have two more relatively inexpensive things to try. If these don't work, you may want to consider removing and selling the supercharger as it only gets very expensive from here if you want to try and fix the issue. I know that's probably not what you want to hear but you do indeed have a ping happy 5VZ-FE on your hands.

1. Clean the Mass Air Flow sensor. Use carb cleaner or MAF sensor cleaner and you'll spray it on both the amber looking wires as well as the thin filiment wires tucked down in the sensor body. Use it liberally, spray for 5 sec, let it dry for 5, spray again, let it dry, etc. You can't hurt it but caked on dirt will. If you have the older turbine style MAF, the same wires are there just a little harder to get to. Let it dry completely before installing.

2. Replace your upstream oxygen sensor with a DENSO replacement. You can find your exact replacement here: ERROR: The request could not be satisfied. You are looking for a direct fit for your model, 4WD Auto, for example and should run for about $50, I buy mine off Amazon by searching the part number. If you have the much more expensive A/F sensor that costs nearly $200, you can try removing it and soaking it in acetone overnight (nail polish remover if you've got a girl in your life) as a replacement is expensive.

Both of these sensors are crucial for fuel delivery. If one of them is off it will cause all sorts of havoc on your fuel ratio and can cause the engine to run lean. You should also get an increase in gas mileage after you do both.

The last thing to try is what you thought, replace with a high flow fuel pump. Replace the fuel filter while you are at it too. Hope this helps point you in the right direction.

I also hope whomever rebuilt your engine didn't mess with the heads or the timing, otherwise we'll be chasing our tails for a long time with no results.

EDIT: Are you going to find yourself in NorCal any time soon in the near future? We could pinpoint the problem if I can see the engine in person.

 

[4runnerfiend]

That video was very helpful. You are right, tons of ping. What's worrisome is that it pinged up high too, above 4500 RPM when you floored it, that's a very bad sign. It's that high RPM ping that kills engines. I would stay out of boost entirely until we can find a fix as the last thing that you want is another rebuild.

I have two more relatively inexpensive things to try. If these don't work, you may want to consider removing and selling the supercharger as it only gets very expensive from here if you want to try and fix the issue. I know that's probably not what you want to hear but you do indeed have a ping happy 5VZ-FE on your hands.

1. Clean the Mass Air Flow sensor. Use carb cleaner or MAF sensor cleaner and you'll spray it on both the amber looking wires as well as the thin filiment wires tucked down in the sensor body. Use it liberally, spray for 5 sec, let it dry for 5, spray again, let it dry, etc. You can't hurt it but caked on dirt will. If you have the older turbine style MAF, the same wires are there just a little harder to get to. Let it dry completely before installing.

2. Replace your upstream oxygen sensor with a DENSO replacement. You can find your exact replacement here: ERROR: The request could not be satisfied. You are looking for a direct fit for your model, 4WD Auto, for example and should run for about $50, I buy mine off Amazon by searching the part number. If you have the much more expensive A/F sensor that costs nearly $200, you can try removing it and soaking it in acetone overnight (nail polish remover if you've got a girl in your life) as a replacement is expensive.

Both of these sensors are crucial for fuel delivery. If one of them is off it will cause all sorts of havoc on your fuel ratio and can cause the engine to run lean. You should also get an increase in gas mileage after you do both.

The last thing to try is what you thought, replace with a high flow fuel pump. Replace the fuel filter while you are at it too. Hope this helps point you in the right direction.

I also hope whomever rebuilt your engine didn't mess with the heads or the timing, otherwise we'll be chasing our tails for a long time with no results.

EDIT: Are you going to find yourself in NorCal any time soon in the near future? We could pinpoint the problem if I can see the engine in person.

Thanks for all your help on this!

Last thing and I'll leave you alone... haha.

Yes the shop that did rebuild my engine put in brand new heads, due to a cracked head. so they are not OEM they are aftermarket. I'm worried that this is the root of my issues.

don't think I'll be in NorCal any time soon. Thanks! your the man. really helped.

 

[4runnerfiend]

That video was very helpful. You are right, tons of ping. What's worrisome is that it pinged up high too, above 4500 RPM when you floored it, that's a very bad sign. It's that high RPM ping that kills engines. I would stay out of boost entirely until we can find a fix as the last thing that you want is another rebuild.

I have two more relatively inexpensive things to try. If these don't work, you may want to consider removing and selling the supercharger as it only gets very expensive from here if you want to try and fix the issue. I know that's probably not what you want to hear but you do indeed have a ping happy 5VZ-FE on your hands.

1. Clean the Mass Air Flow sensor. Use carb cleaner or MAF sensor cleaner and you'll spray it on both the amber looking wires as well as the thin filiment wires tucked down in the sensor body. Use it liberally, spray for 5 sec, let it dry for 5, spray again, let it dry, etc. You can't hurt it but caked on dirt will. If you have the older turbine style MAF, the same wires are there just a little harder to get to. Let it dry completely before installing.

2. Replace your upstream oxygen sensor with a DENSO replacement. You can find your exact replacement here: ERROR: The request could not be satisfied. You are looking for a direct fit for your model, 4WD Auto, for example and should run for about $50, I buy mine off Amazon by searching the part number. If you have the much more expensive A/F sensor that costs nearly $200, you can try removing it and soaking it in acetone overnight (nail polish remover if you've got a girl in your life) as a replacement is expensive.

Both of these sensors are crucial for fuel delivery. If one of them is off it will cause all sorts of havoc on your fuel ratio and can cause the engine to run lean. You should also get an increase in gas mileage after you do both.

The last thing to try is what you thought, replace with a high flow fuel pump. Replace the fuel filter while you are at it too. Hope this helps point you in the right direction.

I also hope whomever rebuilt your engine didn't mess with the heads or the timing, otherwise we'll be chasing our tails for a long time with no results.

EDIT: Are you going to find yourself in NorCal any time soon in the near future? We could pinpoint the problem if I can see the engine in person.

Replaced upstream O2 with Denso, thanks for the link Amazon was pretty cheap.
Replaced fuel pump with the Deatschwerks DW100 from Underdog Racing. Says that it is a slight higher flow than stock so figured it was a good option.
I do clean my MAF often as this rig sees dirt. Think the last time i cleaned was with in 6 months.

No Real change still has the ping noise in all RPM bands. however I can tell it is getting more Fuel. have not floored it, but it pulls better low end and takes more to get it to ping. maybe a placebo effect.

there are basically two noises going on. I can definitely identify the high gear low RPM ping. very evident sounds like Marbles rolling around in my exhaust.. or like really bad valve tap.

The high rpm ping/noise has more air to it almost like an exhaust leak sound. does ping sound different at the different RPM's or could this be another sound?

This is likely coming off and going up for sale.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Do you have a spare TPS? If yours has over 150k miles it’s worth swapping out.

What is your LTFT running at under normal conditions and when you’re getting into the pinging zone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[4runnerfiend]

Do you have a spare TPS? If yours has over 150k miles it’s worth swapping out.

What is your LTFT running at under normal conditions and when you’re getting into the pinging zone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks to be -5 to -6. it's pining. or making that sound all over the RPM band. still not sure it is ping
took a video of my Torque app while driving.

https://youtu.be/OqiKVRS2sns

I do have an extra tps lying around have no idea how many miles are on it. My rig has 300k.. so everything could probably be replaced.. Haha

 

[gamefreakgc]

Replaced upstream O2 with Denso, thanks for the link Amazon was pretty cheap.
Replaced fuel pump with the Deatschwerks DW100 from Underdog Racing. Says that it is a slight higher flow than stock so figured it was a good option.
I do clean my MAF often as this rig sees dirt. Think the last time i cleaned was with in 6 months.

No Real change still has the ping noise in all RPM bands. however I can tell it is getting more Fuel. have not floored it, but it pulls better low end and takes more to get it to ping. maybe a placebo effect.

there are basically two noises going on. I can definitely identify the high gear low RPM ping. very evident sounds like Marbles rolling around in my exhaust.. or like really bad valve tap.

The high rpm ping/noise has more air to it almost like an exhaust leak sound. does ping sound different at the different RPM's or could this be another sound?

This is likely coming off and going up for sale.

Ping sounds the same but it could be hard to discern when at high RPM due to all the extra noise. The high RPM ping is quite rare as the knock sensors normally will retard the timing and take care of it (the ECU doesn't read the knock sensor signals below 3000 RPM which is why the low RPM ping is much more common).

I'm afraid you might be right about selling the supercharger, I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Maybe you can sell the whole deal, supercharger, injectors, pump, etc. together as a package and get most of your money back. That's real bummer though as you spent a lot of time trying to get this right.

I think it may have something to do with the rebuild and the aftermarket heads. Too many variables that could have gone wrong.

 

[4runnerfiend]

Pulled the SC last night and it is still making the sound at high rpms just not as pronounced. I think I'm chasing down an exhaust leak. Does that sound like a possibility?