Robb235's Front Mount Turbo Build

[Robb235]

Knock has nothing to do with running lean. It can cause knock but on e85 it can run dangerously lean and not detonate. So tuning of knock is super dangerous. You would run rich at cruise and maybe lean at wot. You can't guess e85 needs 30% more fuel. That's rough estimate for when starting tuning. Not to tune out out. So when you go e85 you add 30% fuel and start from there. It's just good enough to get car started and that is it.

Hmm, ok. My thought process was that, just like with gas, the O2 sensor would keep everything at stoich (1.0 lambda) AFR while in closed loop. The ECU has the ability to adjust the fuel trims up or down, within a certain range, depending on what the O2 sensor is seeing, in order to keep you at 1.0 lambda. Are you saying that E85 needs to be richer than that? Sorry to keep beating this to death, I just want to understand what you're telling me.

 

[Robb235]

Sweet, can't wait for more details to be posted. That is the thing with the 3.4, very reliable and dependable workhorse, but just a tad bit too slow! Any reason to skip the intercooler? They are pretty cheap.

Intercooler may come later. Depends on what IATs look like. With the low boost levels I'm planning on, I don't anticipate intake temps going much over 150 degrees F. Supercharger IATs get way hotter than that. Plus I've got a meth injection kit to cool things down further.

 

[jeremyc74]

The stoichiometric air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol it is around 9.79:1. You need to be able to tune the ECU to run this stuff properly. The factory ECU will be shooting for the wrong A/F targets, and it's not going to trim out properly.

You're asking for problems with this whole idea, especially considering the fact that you're not going to be gaining any power. Tons of risk, and absolutely no reward.

 

[JayRolla]

Hmm, ok. My thought process was that, just like with gas, the O2 sensor would keep everything at stoich (1.0 lambda) AFR while in closed loop. The ECU has the ability to adjust the fuel trims up or down, within a certain range, depending on what the O2 sensor is seeing, in order to keep you at 1.0 lambda. Are you saying that E85 needs to be richer than that? Sorry to keep beating this to death, I just want to understand what you're telling me.

No you are right. The issue is the ecu compensation wont be enough. If you put in larger injectors and not dial them in so fuel trims are zeroed out then most likely the fuel trims will max and you will get zero compensation depending which way its maxed. To keep fuel trims inline you must tune the injector. You may get lucky putting the 315's in and it might run fine in closed loop but at WOT you dont get any o2 compensation and thats where you may run lean at high rpms and slow burn the motor up. Not worth the risk.

 

[Robb235]

The stoichiometric air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol it is around 9.79:1. You need to be able to tune the ECU to run this stuff properly. The factory ECU will be shooting for the wrong A/F targets, and it's not going to trim out properly.



You're asking for problems with this whole idea, especially considering the fact that you're not going to be gaining any power. Tons of risk, and absolutely no reward.

The ECU doesn't know what actual AFR you're running at, because the O2 sensor only sees in terms of lambda. It doesn't know the ratio is, it just knows whether it's rich or lean of stoich (i.e. 1.0 lambda). From how rich or how lean you are on lambda, you can extrapolate your actual AFR from whatever fuel you're running.

So you fill up with gas, your lambda 1.0 will equate to 14.7 to 1 AFR. If you fill up with, say pure ethanol (E100), your lambda 1.0 is now 9.0 to 1 AFR.

See what I'm saying?

EDIT: As far as no reward goes, I don't agree. With E85 you get to keep all of your timing, and you've got a fuel that's much more forgiving as far as running it too lean goes.

 

[Robb235]

Ok I haven't forgotten about this project, I swear. A lot has happened in the past couple months. I bought a house. I've got a million projects to complete around the house. I had my 2 week annual training with the National Guard, which was pretty intense (phase 1 of Officer Candidate School at Ft. McClellan, Alabama). Work at my civilian job has been building to the point where I'm borderline overloaded. No, I'm completely overloaded. I've been working half days on the weekends in a futile attempt to catch up. And what little free time I do have is spent on the river with friends and family in my 5-seater Yamaha jet boat, enjoying what's left of the summer.

I have no idea when I'll actually get around to installing these parts. But hey, at least I've got my own garage to do it in now.

 

[whyzee125]

Ok I haven't forgotten about this project, I swear. A lot has happened in the past couple months. I bought a house. I've got a million projects to complete around the house. I had my 2 week annual training with the National Guard, which was pretty intense (phase 1 of Officer Candidate School at Ft. McClellan, Alabama). Work at my civilian job has been building to the point where I'm borderline overloaded. No, I'm completely overloaded. I've been working half days on the weekends in a futile attempt to catch up. And what little free time I do have is spent on the river with friends and family in my 5-seater Yamaha jet boat, enjoying what's left of the summer.

I have no idea when I'll actually get around to installing these parts. But hey, at least I've got my own garage to do it in now.

I'm in chattanooga as well and would love to see this sometime! How's it coming?

 

[xhimsa12x]

Soooooooo You forgot about the project!!!!!

 

[4wd4runner]

This might come in handy in the future for me


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[marshallnoise]

In. Late to the party, but in. I need to get out of Cali.

 

[lilevo]

Good thing I'm not bumping a 2 year old post!

Wanted to clarify something on using a bigger MAF and "matching" injectors.

If you are never in any boost then you can increase both the injectors and MAF tube with no ill effect on the fuel trims. The ECU will basically think nothing changed. (closed loop)

However, you still need a way to pull back timing in boost. (open loop) Generally remove 1 degree per pound of boost.

You also need a way to manage AFR's and adjust fuel delivery in boost. AEM FIC 6 or 8 works ok and is really the only option aside from a standalone Haltech or AEM EMS.

 

[Robb235]

Ok so I haven't forgotten about this thread. But life has definitely gotten in the way.

Work has been uncharacteristically busy the last 18 months, as the construction industry is in a boom at the moment. Been putting in 60+ hours per week, and I'm still behind at work.

On top of that, I've in an Army school the past year, so in between my one weekend a month drill, I've had papers to write, homework assignments to complete, etc. Luckily I'll be done with this school in August. I leave for 2 weeks at the end of July to finish out the course.

Then of course we bought our house a little over a year ago, so the wife has had me busy with projects. Most recent one was building new shelving for our closet.

And now we're expecting our first child (a daughter!) in November.

So needless to say, I've been busy.


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[Robb235]

So my wife was out of town Friday, and most of the day today (Saturday) visiting her parents. This allowed me to try out this VHT header paint, that is advertised as also being a ceramic coating. Not sure that this stuff will reduce under hood temps or not, but I wanted my manifolds to be a little more subdued rather than shiny metal. Should also help protect from rust.



Before I painted my manifolds, I did a trial run on a piece of random exhaust tubing I had around.

First I put the piece in a bucket and scrubbed with acetone to remove dirt, oils, and grease.

Next I tried etching the metal with phosphoric acid to help with adhesion of the paint. I'd never done it before, so I followed the directions on the jug (I picked this stuff up at Home Depot). I put 1 part phosphoric acid to 4 parts water in a spray bottle, and sprayed all of the metal tubing. Per the directions, I then let it sit for 30 minutes, then rinsed it off with water (I also used dish soap to try and get any oil or grease I may have missed early). Nothing visually changed with the metal tube after the etching process, so I'm not sure if I did it right.

Next was back in the bucket for a final acetone bath. Let it dry and got it ready to paint. You have to wear latex gloves when handling the piece to be painted, because the oils from your skin will contaminate the paint and it won't bond properly.

I applied 2 coats of primer, and then 3 coats of the black stuff. For each paint session, I applied a light coat, then waited 10 minutes before applying the next coat.

Next was the curing process. Note: The paint is very easily damaged before it's cured. The smallest bump and it chips off. The directions on the can say to bake at 250 degrees for 30 minutes, and then let cool for 30 minutes. Bake at 400 for 30 minutes, cool 30 minutes. And then finally bake at 600 for 30 minutes and let cool again. My oven only goes to 550 degrees, so I baked the last step for 40 minutes.

All in all, the test piece came out pretty good once the curing was complete. The coating seems pretty durable once cured.




I repeated the process for one of the turbo manifolds. Acetone bath, phosphoric etch (again, I didn't notice much change), wash with dish soap, rinse, and another acetone bath.

I went a little thicker with the coatings this time. I did 3 coats of primer, and 5 coats of the black coat (until the can was empty this time).

Primer



Black coat


Have not had a chance to cure it in the oven yet. Wife called to let me know she's on the way home, and I didn't want her to catch me with exhaust parts baking in her oven.


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[Robb235]

One thing I debated was whether or not I should coat the inside of the manifold, or coat the outside only.

Ultimately I decided to only coat the outside and not the inside. I don't know that I trust this stuff enough to not flake off and go through the turbo..,


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[Chuckles89]

Duuudddee how have I not seen this thread before. When you're done with the turbo, I definitely want to check it out! I'm in Cookeville, TN most of the time. We also have a Tennessee 4Runner group on facebook if you're interested: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1692564570960159/

 

[Robb235]

Duuudddee how have I not seen this thread before. When you're done with the turbo, I definitely want to check it out! I'm in Cookeville, TN most of the time. We also have a Tennessee 4Runner group on facebook if you're interested: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1692564570960159/

Good deal, I just sent a request to join.


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[JBurt]

So I'm sure you've gotten tons of progress done with a baby due next month right?

 

[Speedy]

It's always so awesome to read through these threads then realize at the end the person never bothered to finish the project. :violin:

 

[Robb235]

It's always so awesome to read through these threads then realize at the end the person never bothered to finish the project. :violin:

Sorry that my family and career got in the way of your reading pleasure.


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[stever1000]

Any progress?