Roof rack controversy. Gobi Vs Whitson

[phillyd2]

It has nothing to do with fraud, but more so who is overseeing the case. Piercing the veil could be anything from fraud to design rendering. There's no scope to it, and no boundaries. However, something like this situation will more likely never see that happen, but it could. These piercings happen to smaller companies a lot more than large ones. The reason being is the fact the small LLC's don't have the assets to cover damages in most situations.

Like I said, I don't see this being that kind of situation.

Which is why I said 'some extraordinary circumstances such as fraud'. No judge is going to allow without some sort of reason.

And the reason it happens more to small LLC's is because they are usually the ones walking on both sides of the line. A contractor buying a truck for business use only but gets into an accident while taking his family on vacation. Or something.

Point is to keep the two completely separate with no mingling.

 

[wadle5]

My many cents input so far....

nah, like $1.42 at best. :eyebrows:

Oh I've got no qualms with the investigative aspects of whats gone on, and I don't feel too great about how Gobi ID2000 or whoever they are has gone about handling whats happened in the forum, but the Facebook aspect of whats happened and some of the more extreme responses can be embarrassing both for the forum and personally. Not talking about you personally

I agree and none taken personally. Like I said I will wait for the legal system, but if the owner is going to get on and start making blanket statements give grey answers and then make accusations toward the other company without first answering the outstanding questions. Well of course I'm going to question the character and business practice. All I did on here prior to that is simply research and question....and throat punch Thai once?!

The fake accounts were just icing on the cake. Which again some individuals seem to continue to dismiss as well

 

[South-O 4RnR]

Based on WM claims their patent doesn't apply to his product, so unless they own a patent on The Roof Rack (period) then they seem to be strategically tying his hand by causing legal issues, which most small guys (like WM) just cannot afford. It is bullying.

The actual lawsuit and patent were posted on a previous page. The way I interpret the patent (I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night) is that ID2000 owns the design idea for 'vehicle specific' roof racks (which is fairly broad/vague). All other roof racks must not be designed for the specific vehicle it's being attached to. This is why they've also filed suit with Baja as they also design and sell vehicle specific roof racks and ladders.

While I don't agree with the way they've gone about this (or how they've dealt with the PR from this), they have every right to try and protect their patent. Doing so doesn't diminish the quality of product they put out and they shouldn't be dragged through the coals for doing what they're doing.

It will be interesting to see where this goes and how it will affect our future options when selecting roof racks.

 

[phillyd2]

If Gobi wanted to handle this well they should have gone straight to WM and had a chat...I can't say they didn't do this, but based on how WM described it hitting his radar, it was far from that.

Obviously we can't know for sure but this part of the story doesn't ring true to me. It just doesn't make sense not to make or attempt to make contact before filing suit.

May have happen as stated but if it did its very strange and unusual.

 

[Thai]

I agree and none taken personally. Like I said I will wait for the legal system, but if the owner is going to get on and start making blanket/gray statements and then accusations toward the other company without first answering the oustanding questions. Well of course I'm going to question the character and business practice.

So, BEFORE he/she got on, did you question the character and business practice of Gobi?

Weren't you on my case from beginning because I encourage patience and avoiding jumping to conclusion?

You have changed your tone dude. :tape2:

 

[wadle5]

So, BEFORE he/she got on, did you question the character and business practice of Gobi?

Weren't you on my case from beginning because I encourage patience and avoiding jumping to conclusion?

You have changed your tone dude. :tape2:

No I simply asked to take into account the actual lawsuit documents and the validity of such patent and to not be so dismissive. I was not the one name calling Gobi. You really want me to go back through 20 pages and start reposting, come on man.

 

[ajonesnv]

I agree that Gobi's actions are really strange (and downright moronic such as double registration). 100% agree with everyone. But being a moron does not automatically mean that he/she is wrong either.

But you're basing your conclusion on an assumption...which is a bad idea IMHO. WM claims may be quite clear and he may be 100% right...but none of us are patent experts and none of us (thus far) are lawyers nor experts in the field of patents. So, drawing a conclusion already is a flawed logic...as I have explained earlier in this thread.

Where does it leave us? Jury + Judge + Executioner. Is that what we want to become? So many here say this whole Gobi suing is not American...well, frankly, what do you think is American about being the jury, judge, and executioner all in one?

This is why I would love to hear from a lawyer...ideally one in the patent field.

Bullying...that is interesting concept. So, before we know who's right, some on here have already spam Gobi social media...some on here want to spread the news of Gobi being evil everywhere to force Gobi to back down or else they suffer the consequences. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the THE DEFINITION of bullying??

Of course, being sued sucks. Of course, it costs money. Trust me, I am in a professional field that is always at risk. But I love what I do. If I wanted to avoid being sued, then I probably take a lesser job or do less with my life.

Now, WM...he seems like a great guy from basically everyone I have talked to...here or via PMs. No arguments from me.

However, here's the thing...WM should know that if he produces something and he's NOT the first to do it, then he is at risk for being sued. That comes with the territory. Hell, even if you came up with it first, but someone beat you to the patent office, then you're at risk. Whether the lawsuit is right or not, it comes with the territory. Should every manufacturer check with their lawyers about existing patents? YES!! Even then, that is not a guarantee. WM may not have the resources to check existing patents...but that does NOT excuse him from being sued by someone else. When you make something that makes a profit and you're not the first and have not patent it, then expect some heat from competitors. If you expect that competitors only would just "one up" you in design and not resort to any other method, then you are very naïve in the United States of America (or anywhere really; maybe except China!).

If you open a business whether it be your backyard or garage or business complex, then you are fair game. Patents, whether stupid or not, are there for a reason. Without them, you have China.

So, as stated before, you guys can defecate on Gobi all you want...but for the interest of parties involved (WM and Gobi), you guys need to wait for the legal system to pass judgment.

My many cents input so far....

Not that you are specifically referencing me recommending going to Gobi's FB page and asking...excuse me, I used the word implore...implore them to drop the suit, but if you are referencing my request, let me speak to that. As you spoke about the landscape of America, social media is now very much a part of that landscape. I had no intention of bullying them, calling them name, or bad mouthing them...but rather making them to stop simply because it is not right. Is it legal for them do this, yes, but that doesn't make it right. Choosing legal action IMHO is at best a last resort. I don't know WM, but based on the reputation he has I wouldn't be surprise if he responded to their queries.

Maybe I have a different ideal as to what things should look like in this, but going to the measures they are just makes me shake my head. It lacks decency, tack, and respect. I personally don't think it takes a degree in law to determine right from wrong in a real life personal sense. It may from a legal sense, but like I said that just boils down to how crafty the plaintiff wants to be.

 

[Thai]

No I simply asked to take into account the actual lawsuit documents and the validity of such patent and to not be so dismissive. I was not the one name calling Gobi. You really want me to go back through 20 pages and start reposting, come on man.

Like Gobi et al. did with you, you did not answer my questions.

 

[Thai]

The actual lawsuit and patent were posted on a previous page. The way I interpret the patent (I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night) is that ID2000 owns the design idea for 'vehicle specific' roof racks (which is fairly broad/vague). All other roof racks must not be designed for the specific vehicle it's being attached to. This is why they've also filed suit with Baja as they also design and sell vehicle specific roof racks and ladders.

FINALLY! If you're right, then this lawsuit NOW makes some sense. I hope that someone (with knowledge) else can chime in and concur or disagree with this.

Not that you are specifically referencing me recommending going to Gobi's FB page and asking...excuse me, I used the word implore...implore them to drop the suit, but if you are referencing my request, let me speak to that. As you spoke about the landscape of America, social media is now very much a part of that landscape. I had no intention of bullying them, calling them name, or bad mouthing them...but rather making them to stop simply because it is not right. Is it legal for them do this, yes, but that doesn't make it right. Choosing legal action IMHO is at best a last resort. I don't know WM, but based on the reputation he has I wouldn't be surprise if he responded to their queries.

Maybe I have a different ideal as to what things should look like in this, but going to the measures they are just makes me shake my head. It lacks decency, tack, and respect. I personally don't think it takes a degree in law to determine right from wrong in a real life personal sense. It may from a legal sense, but like I said that just boils down to how crafty the plaintiff wants to be.

Agree 100% that Gobi's actions are less than spectacular. But, we all can live in China where patents are about as useful as toilet paper.

 

[ajonesnv]

Obviously we can't know for sure but this part of the story doesn't ring true to me. It just doesn't make sense not to make or attempt to make contact before filing suit.

May have happen as stated but if it did its very strange and unusual.

My point is, we are apart of a small community and clearly things like this greatly disrupt the force...(reminds me of the Troy industries debacle a few years ago).

I have an old fashioned ideal on things and if I have a problem, business or personal I go to the other party with hat-in-hand to talk about the problem.

 

[Thai]

I have an old fashioned ideal on things and if I have a problem, business or personal I go to the other party with hat-in-hand to talk about the problem.

Until this is resolved, who is right here? WM says that no one contacted him before lawsuit. Gobi says that they tried but WM won't answer.

I think that WM is right...but then again, phillyd states that is not how you are served. I am confused now.

 

[wadle5]

Like Gobi et al. did with you, you did not answer my questions.

Now you are spam posting. You can go back and clearly see where I cited you several times and have direct quoted you with answers. I dont think I really need to clutter up the feed more with the refuting you with the same image/quote/fact and answering and proving you wrong and you completely ignoring it.

Realistically you can go to your own profile, and look under mentions, thread tags and quotes? Really you want me to repost that all again. I'm not avoiding any questions. As previously stated I'm just not going to keep answering you when you keep dismissing answers. I have directly called you and shown you past posts and all you say is show me where?
I can't do a spark notes version of this thread for you.
Just read, retain, respond. You consistently keep forgetting 2 important steps.

 

[ajonesnv]

Agree 100% that Gobi's actions are less than spectacular. But, we all can live in China where patents are about as useful as toilet paper.

It's not that patents aren't important, it how silly they can be. I agree that intellectual property is very important, but if the pervious claim is true, IMO the patent office should have NEVER allowed that.

 

[Thai]

So, BEFORE he/she got on, did you question the character and business practice of Gobi?

Weren't you on my case from beginning because I encourage patience and avoiding jumping to conclusion?

You have changed your tone dude. :tape2:

Now you are spam posting. You can go back and clearly see where I cited you several times and have direct quoted you with answers. I dont think I really need clutter up the feed more with the banter

Thought so. Yes/No would have been adequate.

 

[Scramble]

Holy Crap I've missed a lot!

 

[wadle5]

Thought so. Yes/No would have been adequate.

Adequate I'm sure. You have been proven wrong over a dozen times with more than enough info surpassing a simple yes or no and dismiss it, and your only support throughout was the company in question. You were proven wrong about the matter at hand and have now for some reason decided to continue on with blatant disregard. You have even liked what other people have posted that is is in direct correlation to the answers and questions at hand?!
Now I don't know if it's laziness or your comprehension is poor. I mean I can't make you read, but before posting maybe you should review all the pages in its entirety of this thread, before commenting again.. . or continue aimlessly posting and keep racking up those posts.

 

[wnelax04sr5]

Fair enough, however I would say it's more of an issue controlling emotion...I would consider emotional over this, because it happens that I can be very empathetic with this situation. Emotion shouldn't take over rational, however it can be a good driver for exercising good rational.

I totally agree. Since so many people personally know and have dealt with Josh, its impossible to not get emotional over it. But emotion isn't part of a litigation, facts are, and so we wait....

nah, like $1.42 at best. :eyebrows:



I agree and none taken personally. Like I said I will wait for the legal system, but if the owner is going to get on and start making blanket statements give grey answers and then make accusations toward the other company without first answering the outstanding questions. Well of course I'm going to question the character and business practice. All I did on here prior to that is simply research and question....and throat punch Thai once?!

If everyone questioned sketchy behavior wherever it was found we would live in a much better society

 

[phillyd2]

My point is, we are apart of a small community and clearly things like this greatly disrupt the force...(reminds me of the Troy industries debacle a few years ago).

I have an old fashioned ideal on things and if I have a problem, business or personal I go to the other party with hat-in-hand to talk about the problem.

That's nice

I do the same thing in my personal life. Business is a different animal and we conduct all business affairs professionally via the standard norms which protects all parties and eliminates most possible areas of conflict and misunderstandings.

 

[CPT2nr88]

FINALLY! If you're right, then this lawsuit NOW makes some sense. I hope that someone (with knowledge) else can chime in and concur or disagree with this.

There is absolutely no way that gobi or anyone holds a patent on being the only one able to make a vehicle specific roof rack. However someone could theoretically hold a patent on a vehicle specific roof rack, aka that specific design and configuration.

The long description of patent information many pages ago was for an application that Gobi placed patent number "928". What was actually awarded was patent "938" which is void of a lot of information and just basically has the pictures. Interestingly enough Gobi didn't patent each design for each roof rack as they made it, but they all fell under this umbrella design.

In the General Allegations of the lawsuit Section A.8. They say that they have sold racks which "embodies the invention claimed by'938' patent'

This is the first patent that they are claiming WMW infringed on.
https://www.google.com/patents/USD520938

The second one is patent "952" which is based on a continuance of the "928" patent application.

As with the first patent gobi claims they have sold racks which "embodies the invention claimed by '952' patent" section A.10.


Then the lawsuit goes on to state "an ordinary obverver would view the accused products as substantially the same as the sport utility vehicle storage rack claimed by gobi Patents" (section B.12) Basically I think the interpretation is that an uninformed consumer, would think they are the same thing. So basically because WMW's rack looks similar to theirs, it was clearly made as an imitation form.

The reality is that, because they are vehicle specific and for the same vehicle, the similarities are not because of copying gobi's product, but rather because the overall goal was to make a strong low profile rack that integrates well with the vehicle its mounted to.

What it comes down to is: In this case did WMW just copy an already made product, and that's why the racks look similar? or did WMW design a product and the intended purpose drove the design to look as it does and it is a mere coincidence that they look similar.

Other red flag things that stand out in the lawsuit:

Gobi states WMW has been selling since 2012, the design hasn't changed much since then. Why are they only pursuing this lawsuit after over 3 years. Especially since they claim WMW knew about their patent since 2008( I have no idea how they would prove this in a court of law) Unless sometime over the past 3 years Gobi has reached out to WMW to try and discuss it amicably this is highly suspect. From the sound of it they haven't, Gobi filed a "complaint" on one of the last few days of July, a complaint is the initiation of a lawsuit and it was sent through the court system to WMW. At no point whatsoever is there any evidence showing that Gobi tried to actually communicate with WMW before filing the lawsuit. However Paul did ask WMW to "respond" to his "complaint" so that it didn't have to go to court(which is a load of B.S.) WMW is correct in not responding directly to gobi. I'm willing to bet his legal council advised him to do so. There is nothing for him to gain because the lawsuit is already filed. he could only hurt himself.

 

[Thai]

Adequate I'm sure. You have been proven wrong over a dozen times with more than enough info surpassing a simple yes or no and dismiss it, and your only support throughout was the company in question. You were proven wrong about the matter at hand and have now for some reason decided to continue on with blatant disregard. You have even liked what other people have posted that is is in direct correlation to the answers and questions at hand?!
Now I don't know if it's laziness or your comprehension is poor. I mean I can't make you read, but before posting maybe you should review all the pages in its entirety of this thread, before commenting again.. . or continue aimlessly posting and keep racking up those posts.

Are you really this dumb? What exactly have i been wrong? I have asked you before...you cowardly shy away and play nice. What have i been wrong about in this thread? Please tell me.

So, again, you refuse to answer the two very simple questions. Hypocrisy at its best.

Once more:

So, BEFORE he/she (GOBI) got on this forum, did you question the character and business practice of Gobi?

Weren't you on my case from beginning because I encourage patience and avoiding jumping to conclusion?

Thanks dude.

Oh yeah, i guess 1engineer is assoc with Gobi too, right?!