Second admendment

[LandCruiser]

So having armed Police in a school will put a damper on the freedom to misbehave....to the point it offsets the deterrent value against another massacre? What if the Police are restrained from enforcing minor school disturbance and are just ''Stationed'' in a work room to do normal police reports and such, no need to interact with the Kids normal routine? Don't you think the mere presence of bodies and cruisers on site would be of value?

Libs are also saying ebil white cops might want to start shooting the minority kids--because that's all cops are to them, until they need 911.

 

[e60ral]

So having armed Police in a school will put a damper on the freedom to misbehave....to the point it offsets the deterrent value against another massacre? What if the Police are restrained from enforcing minor school disturbance and are just ''Stationed'' in a work room to do normal police reports and such, no need to interact with the Kids normal routine? Don't you think the mere presence of bodies and cruisers on site would be of value?

Google school to prison pipeline and do some reading, 2e need to get food out of schools

Sent from my P00A using Tapatalk

 

[LandCruiser]

Google school to prison pipeline and do some reading, 2e need to get food out of schools

Sent from my P00A using Tapatalk

Those poor kids, going to prison for committing crimes!

 

[KWolff]

DC v Heller states that gun control is constitutional, read section 3

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Like I stated I am very familiar with the brief, which quote exactly are you referencing when you state this? If it is the one I think it is you are taking it out of context because he refers to the Miller case before stating restrictions on "unusually dangerous" weapons are ok. His statement would mean AR15s are good to go and any restriction on those is unconstitutional.

 

[e60ral]

III

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

 

[e60ral]

Those poor kids, going to prison for committing crimes!

13-yo autistic girl arrested for skipping school
Are Schools Still Pushing Kids Out? | Jackson Free Press | Jackson, MS

7th grader arrested for fight over tootsie pop
14 year old arrested for standing up to bully
https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida...ested-for-bad-behavior-not-criminal-behavior/

criminal charge for saying "**** science"
criminal charges for throwing backpacks at lockers
9th grade girl arrested for using cellphone
2 male students arrested for using phones while a video plays
3 female students charged for skipping class and running in the hallway
15 year old student arrested for arguing with school staff
Arrested development: schools turning to police to discipline students

using a cellphone in class
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...c971f713d0c_story.html?utm_term=.3afe5b2f6ea2

charged for throwing a paper airplane
charged for kicking a trashcan
charged for wearing sagging pants
13 year old charged for using $2 bill they thought was fake
middle school student charged for throwing a baby carrot
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...inflict-a-lot-of-harm/?utm_term=.eecf4c5061f3

etc... there are so many examples of students today being charged with crimes for minor discipline issues that shouldn't involve law enforcement

more info:
The school to prison pipeline, explained ? Justice Policy Institute

disorderly conduct is the stuff that teachers and school administrators could handle on their own when i was a kid, not kids can get criminal records which can damage their chance to go to college. back in the day if you got into a fight it didn't need to involve cops, now it is handcuffs and arrests.

ironically, one of the reasons the parkland shooting happens was because of obama-era band-aid grants to solve the problem instead of the correct way to solve the problem (by just removing SRO's)

 

[Spokanesteve]

School discipline versus arrest policies

Hello all:

Just to give some actual experience about the alleged "school to prison" pipeline theory.

First, the criminal justice system varies widely between states. it has even more variation in the juvenile area. Many states, like Washington, have extensive intervention/probation/rehabilitation options. Other places don't. In my view, this renders any nationwide statistics almost meaningless.

Second, as someone who was working in juvenile justice when the Obama do-gooders came to town I can tell you that the schools here in Spokane are LESS safe because of the policies put in place to prevent arrests by school resource officers. My brother is a teacher and he has been assaulted twice this year and the student is still in his class. Less education is happening. These policies have massive unintended consequences here and I am skeptical of them elsewhere, in my humble opinion they should not be applied nationwide. This is why we have local school boards.

Third, we can all look at the Florida tragedy to see that that the trail of responsibility leads directly to these well-intentioned but misguided efforts to prevent school arrests. If this murderer had been arrested and convicted for the numerous crimes he committed before the shooting, then he wouldn't have been able to purchase firearms and hopefully, would have been getting the incarceration or services appropriate to his situation. Ultimately this is blood is on the hands of the Obama administration and their liberal allies (the MacArthur foundation in particular) that pushed these policies. Hopefully this won't happen again but the media doesn't want to talk about this issue.

Whenever you see someone say "school to prison" pipeline your BS detector should go on high alert. Here, I called the juvenile justice system the pipeline to services. We had very low recidivision rates. Now with the schools trying to handle criminal behavior we don't see the kids until they are much more entrenched and harder to rehabilitate.

Cheers, Steve.

 

[Off-choader]

Hello all:

Just to give some actual experience about the alleged "school to prison" pipeline theory.

First, the criminal justice system varies widely between states. it has even more variation in the juvenile area. Many states, like Washington, have extensive intervention/probation/rehabilitation options. Other places don't. In my view, this renders any nationwide statistics almost meaningless.

Second, as someone who was working in juvenile justice when the Obama do-gooders came to town I can tell you that the schools here in Spokane are LESS safe because of the policies put in place to prevent arrests by school resource officers. My brother is a teacher and he has been assaulted twice this year and the student is still in his class. Less education is happening. These policies have massive unintended consequences here and I am skeptical of them elsewhere, in my humble opinion they should not be applied nationwide. This is why we have local school boards.

Third, we can all look at the Florida tragedy to see that that the trail of responsibility leads directly to these well-intentioned but misguided efforts to prevent school arrests. If this murderer had been arrested and convicted for the numerous crimes he committed before the shooting, then he wouldn't have been able to purchase firearms and hopefully, would have been getting the incarceration or services appropriate to his situation. Ultimately this is blood is on the hands of the Obama administration and their liberal allies (the MacArthur foundation in particular) that pushed these policies. Hopefully this won't happen again but the media doesn't want to talk about this issue.

Whenever you see someone say "school to prison" pipeline your BS detector should go on high alert. Here, I called the juvenile justice system the pipeline to services. We had very low recidivision rates. Now with the schools trying to handle criminal behavior we don't see the kids until they are much more entrenched and harder to rehabilitate.

Cheers, Steve.

My BS detector went off long before e60ral started talking about the school to prison pipeline

 

[Hepar]

If this murderer had been arrested and convicted for the numerous crimes he committed before the shooting, then he wouldn't have been able to purchase firearms and hopefully, would have been getting the incarceration or services appropriate to his situation.

Out of curiosity, what were those numerous crimes?

 

[e60ral]

Ultimately this is blood is on the hands of the Obama administration and their liberal allies (the MacArthur foundation in particular) that pushed these policies. Hopefully this won't happen again but the media doesn't want to talk about this issue.

Whenever you see someone say "school to prison" pipeline your BS detector should go on high alert. Here, I called the juvenile justice system the pipeline to services. We had very low recidivision rates. Now with the schools trying to handle criminal behavior we don't see the kids until they are much more entrenched and harder to rehabilitate.

1) school to prison pipeline is a real problem that is supported by evidence, you are intentionally living with your head in the sand if you don't believe it

2) this can be related back to obama but not in the way you are implying. local law enforcement wanted to get grant money and reached an agreement with the Broward county school board and NAACP to reduce the number of students being charged with offenses.

this was the band-aid solution that was put into place instead of the proper solution (removing SROs). initially police officers were excusing misdemeanor behaviors (this is good, those should be handled by the school and parents) but they started to excuse felonies and violent crimes to show that arrests were being lowered year after year to get that grant money.

they were literally hiding evidence to avoid charging some people, so corrupt cops were put into schools to not rock the boat. being a school cop there is a great gig, you can even get free housing near the school along with other privileges. six cops blew the whistle and started and internal investigation so all of this is public record.

this was all because of an obama program. the program tried to fix a real problem in a bad way. the actual fix is to get cops out of schools

Here is a right-wing blog post that gives some more detail:
https://theconservativetreehouse.co...-martin-standard-for-studentpolice-avoidance/

 

[BrianSD_42]

Hello all:

Just to give some actual experience about the alleged "school to prison" pipeline theory.
........
Whenever you see someone say "school to prison" pipeline your BS detector should go on high alert. Here, I called the juvenile justice system the pipeline to services. We had very low recidivision rates.

Cheers, Steve.

Steve I believe you are conflating "no child left behind" with school to prison pipeline issue. There is some overlap but these are two different things.

NCLB is a policy that actually pre-dates Obama (see Bush) but was strengthened under his watch. It does many things, one of which is make it much harder for schools to expel students for behavior problems. The results are mixed but I did see a PBS Frontline on the issue and you're not alone in pointing out the negative effects this has on the kids who are not little sh$ts destroying the learning environment.

Separately there is this broad concept of the school to prison pipeline which is a documented change across the country on how many school districts are using school resource officers to charge kids, especially those with learning disabilities, with crimes for actions that when we were growing up were not an offense that would get you put in juvie. There is no S2PP policy. It is just an ovbserved effect that is well documented.

These two things feed off of each other. Schools can't easily expel the students have to keep the worst of them but when they misbehave there is an on-site LEO ready to charge them for resisting arrest (something a teen and most adults don't even understand) or failure to an order. Children who's parents have means can afford a lawyer and get out pretty unscathed but the poor have a decent chance of their whole lives being upended.

We pay taxes for these kids to be in juvie and they are less likely to become functioning adults after prison. Plenty of conservatives acknowledge that the system is flawed and it isn't in our best interest to have it continue. The Koch brothers have donated plenty to prison reform for this very reason.

So it is really the worst of two things feeding off of each other. Not a liberal conspiracy.

 

[83Mule]

I see a direct correlation between the Liberal policy of removing punishment as ''arresting creativity'' or ''Limiting self-worth'' and other such mumbo-jumbo, and the rise of anarchy in schools. Now that it is out of hand and police had to be brought in they are wondering why their policy failed. KIDS NEED DISCIPLINE....they actually crave it! And firm rules and control done fairly is no roadblock to a good education or a well rounded citizen. The Teachers Union has been the biggest failure to influence the schools....just after the folks who abdicate the responsibility to raise their Kids TO the schools IMO. Disruptive Kids don't need unlimited chances to get their shit together....because it comes on the backs of the Kids who are there to learn and play by the rules. Send them to continuation and crack down even harder if need be after a few attempts to ''fix'' them. When they get to the World, if they are still thugs the Libs can fund them 'til death I guess.:violin:

 

[e60ral]

I see a direct correlation between the Liberal policy of removing punishment as ''arresting creativity'' or ''Limiting self-worth'' and other such mumbo-jumbo, and the rise of anarchy in schools. Now that it is out of hand and police had to be brought in they are wondering why their policy failed. KIDS NEED DISCIPLINE....they actually crave it! And firm rules and control done fairly is no roadblock to a good education or a well rounded citizen. The Teachers Union has been the biggest failure to influence the schools....just after the folks who abdicate the responsibility to raise their Kids TO the schools IMO. Disruptive Kids don't need unlimited chances to get their shit together....because it comes on the backs of the Kids who are there to learn and play by the rules. Send them to continuation and crack down even harder if need be after a few attempts to ''fix'' them. When they get to the World, if they are still thugs the Libs can fund them 'til death I guess.:violin:

Police didn't have to be brought in because of discipline in schools, they were brought in after columbine

You're conflating nclb and the school to prison pipeline.

Did you never get into a fight in school? Or pull a prank? Or skip school? Those things can get you a criminal charge these days, one that can prevent you from getting into college or prevent you from getting a scholarship, or even prevent you from getting a job.

If you are in favor of cops in schools you aren't ever allowed to complain about the pussification of America or kids these days being soft because it's all part of having cops in schools and not letting kids be kids.

 

[jordanrb81]

I got in fights pulled pranks and skipped school... sometimes all in the same day!!! haha, ah middle school

 

[Spokanesteve]

Remember a fight is different than an assault

Out of curiosity, what were those numerous crimes?

Obviously I don't have first hand knowledge of Florida but the media has reported a string of school offenses to include assaults, threatening teachers, and carrying bullets on school campus.

https://www.realclearinvestigations...cipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

Cheers, Steve.

 

[Hepar]

Obviously I don't have first hand knowledge of Florida but the media has reported a string of school offenses to include assaults, threatening teachers, and carrying bullets on school campus.

https://www.realclearinvestigations...cipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html

Cheers, Steve.

I think that's where we can all start to get into a slippery slope. I definitely agree that there were plenty of signs that warned that he was an individual that shouldn't have owned a firearm. But that lends itself to what is enough of a sign? The information on bullets being in a backpack is from other students and as any of us know about how rumors fly (especially at that age), to base confirmation on that is a stretch. As well as what was the incident of an assault. Was it a schoolyard fight? Something most of us have probably been in at some point in our childhood.

I think especially from any pro-2nd amendment individuals, it is even more of a sticking point. What would that line be to disallow an American citizen from owning a firearm? The thought that they may commit a crime? Or the threat of a crime? Where would that line be drawn and would you be happy with that line?

 

[ndcent]

Conservatives: big government is bad, no way they’ll chip away at my rights.
Also conservatives: big government should have done more to stop the FL shooter.

 

[Off-choader]

Conservatives: big government is bad, no way they’ll chip away at my rights.
Also conservatives: big government should have done more to stop the FL shooter.

nice try but really state and local government should have done more, I know not to trust the fed gov to do what they say

 

[Spokanesteve]

I think especially from any pro-2nd amendment individuals, it is even more of a sticking point. What would that line be to disallow an American citizen from owning a firearm? The thought that they may commit a crime? Or the threat of a crime? Where would that line be drawn and would you be happy with that line?

Fair question. Here's a good non-controversial start. In all of my time speaking with liberals and conservatives and moderates about gun violence I have yet to hear anyone who is opposed to the laws that prevent a convicted felon from possessing a firearm. Many states also have laws that prevent a person with a DV assault from possessing a firearm. I saw a study recently that 97% of the gun violence in Chicago was committed by people possessing illegal firearms. If we begin to seriously enforce and incarcerate for illegally possessing firearms it is reasonable to think we can make a serious dent in violent gun crime.

More controversial but equally important, we need to get back to common-sense law enforcement such as stop-and-frisk, which made such a massive difference in street violent crime in New York. Also, common sense interpretation and reform of the 4th Amendment search and seizure laws would allow the police to catch more violent criminals with guns and allow that evidence to be used in court to convict them.

Cheers, Steve.

 

[Off-choader]

Fair question. Here's a good non-controversial start. In all of my time speaking with liberals and conservatives and moderates about gun violence I have yet to hear anyone who is opposed to the laws that prevent a convicted felon from possessing a firearm. Many states also have laws that prevent a person with a DV assault from possessing a firearm. I saw a study recently that 97% of the gun violence in Chicago was committed by people possessing illegal firearms. If we begin to seriously enforce and incarcerate for illegally possessing firearms it is reasonable to think we can make a serious dent in violent gun crime.

More controversial but equally important, we need to get back to common-sense law enforcement such as stop-and-frisk, which made such a massive difference in street violent crime in New York. Also, common sense interpretation and reform of the 4th Amendment search and seizure laws would allow the police to catch more violent criminals with guns and allow that evidence to be used in court to convict them.

Cheers, Steve.

Good points, logical points, and we all know what that means... e60ral triggering incoming