Seized into 4W low. New actuator needed? Who's at fault?

[Pagonut]

The short version: Stopped at the Toyota dealership yesterday to have my 4 Runner checked out for a trade-in value estimate. A supervisor drove it. Got back in to drive away and it was seized into 4 W low and lurching ahead. Toyota says they are not responsible ("It was waiting to happen and there is nothing this woman could have done to cause this malfunction"). Toyota service dept could not unseized it. Says it will cost us about $2000 to have the actuator replaced. They sent us home with a free rental for the night (we live 90 miles away). OUR toyota mechanic at home says the woman most definitely COULD have been the cause and probably was. She drove in 4W low on dry pavement for starters and turned the wheels sharply while trying to engage it into 4W low "To try to get it to do that hoppy thing that tells me it's engaged." He says those are 2 of the biggest no-no's. I have poured over the manual on line and can find nothing that says you should not do these things. I feel like I have no ammunition to work with.

Now we are car-less, looking at a huge repair bill, Toyota will not take responsibility, and our mechanic feels it was their fault. I drove it in 4W high just last week with no issue. It is still at the dealership as we will have to pay $100+ to have it towed the 90 mi home.

I would appreciate ANY advice on both unseizing without replacing the actuator, and on how to deal with an international corporation who wants to peg this on us. Could they truly be innocent? This car is in tip top shape and never driven irresponsibly. It only has 94,000 on it. And I, myself, would have NEVER put it into 4Low on dry pavement - OR tried to engage the 4W while turning the wheels. I always drive straight ahead to engage. So, I feel certain this would not have happened with me driving it. They say it was just a matter of time....

 

[foxtrot]

that's pretty ****ty of them. they were driving the vehicle and broke it, they are responsible for what they broke. the only thing I found was the little card in the visor. it says "For normal driving on dry, hard surface roads, set the center differential lock off." doesn't say exactly about L4 but I bet they locked the center diff to test it and that could have easily made this happen. I hate dealers with a passion and have only been screwed over by them. good luck! let me know if you want me to snap a pic of the card.

 

[CXS]

Quick aside - Hey Brad!

The dealer f*cked up and admitted some liability already by giving you a free loaner. Claiming it was about to happen is like them coming back with it crashed and saying it was just a matter of time.

Whoever drove the car is responsible first, their employer second. You are not dealing with an international company, you are dealing with one person who damaged your vehicle.

See what small claims court amounts in your area are and take the person who did the damage to court. Pay your mechanic to come with you if it doesn't get paid for before court date.

Do not let the dealer make you an offer using it as trade in.

 

[aha2988]

the only way it could be "just a matter of time" for the 4L actuator to seize is if you never use it. I could understand if they came back with the truck after driving it and said oh it doesnt shift into 4L because it's seized from not being used. (Your supposed to engage it atleast once a month to keep the actuators lubed and prevent seizing)

I Don't believe I've ever even heard of the actuator seizing up in 4L only not allowing 4L to engage. Whoever drove it didnt not properly engage the 4L and the Dealership is trying to pull a fast one on you. If they can simply push you a away with a rental and deal with it later they will. Your going to have to prove they're at fault though.

I agree take them to small claims and they'll start talking to you real fast. its only 80 bucks in my town to file a claim and have the defendant served. I'd hope its not to much more where your located.

I personally off-road the mess out of my truck as it sits at 145,000 miles with zero transfer case issues. I'm continuously engaging and disengaging 4L on the trail depending upon the obstacle at hand. The only thing I've ever had trouble with is getting my center diff to unlock because the V8 setups don't have a synchronizer you just have to roll back in forth till it lines up right lol

Who actually drove the truck a Toyota employee? There should be no reason they would have to turn the truck on dry pavement to let them know the transfer case is in 4L theres a big bright light on the dash that indicates when its in 4L and is only lit up when the actuator is engaged.

When you let them drive your vehicle it becomes there responsibility just like the previous statement if they had wrecked it, It would be there fault just like they broke it ITS THERE FAULT.

unfortunately there have been many attempts to un-seize the actuators without replacing them but i don't believe anyone's had any luck. Its inside the transfer case assembly which has to be disassembled to replace. Man I'm pissed just thinking about this situation completely ridiculous. Its irritating that people can't fess up and take responsibility for there actions

 

[boondoggle]

I agree. Unless you or they signed something stating they are not liable for the state of the vehicle's condition upon return from the test drive I don't see how they can say they aren't liable.

Matter of time BS.

They can get it fixed at cost and should do what is right.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I think your Toyota Mechanic means driving it in 4Lo with the Center Diff lock on, that's not recommended and could potentially cause issues, as would turning while the diff was locked in 4Lo on pavement.

Our vehicles are pretty well made and the 4Hi & 4Lo work well on pavement, though you wouldn't need 4Lo, it shouldn't cause serious damage.

It sounds to me like the woman is at fault, I think she did not engage the 4WD system properly and did not operate it properly and this resulted in damage to the system. Whether or not the system was on its last legs has little to do with the fact that her actions contributed to that failure. Honestly, it might not have been her fault at all and the system decided then was when it wanted to go, but it happened under the supervision and care of the dealership. Unless they had you sign a document or provided a legally binding notation that said they are not liable for damages caused by them during test driving/inspection they should have to cover the damages at least partially.

 

[Sungod]

Mine seized in 4L. I hadn't used it in about 6 years and did so for a serious snow storm. Lucky for me after a few cyclings and powering off and on it broke lose. I would say that it could have been coincidence, but undoubtedly putting it into 4lo on pavement isn't a great idea. You do have open differentials so in theory it shouldn't bind, but I can tell you even driving on fairly hard packed gravel I have seen wheel hop. I could only imagine what it would do on dry pavement where you have no give at all. That hoppy thing is binding and that is bad news.

It is a tough situation to be in. It would be like your buddy coming over and having the refrigerator door fall off when he goes to grab a beer. Kind of hard to blame the guy that just happened to be the one. I would think that the dealer should have been smart enough to capitalize on the situation and take the opportunity to sell you a car. Nothing would make a sale easier that knowing the customer has no way home. Now they are looking at a pissed off customer that probably won't buy anything.

I think the owner's manual states not to engage 4lo on dry pavement. You may want to look at it. If it does, they should accept responsibility.

 

[Synister]

Like Blackworks said, there is nothing wrong with putting your truck in 4LO on dry pavement provided the center diff is left unlocked, its basically AWD LO. If, however, the person improperly locked the diff while in 4LO and now is both in 4LO and locked, that person / dealer is most definitely at fault because that is a no-no with any 4wd drive vehicle. If you can find some sand or a loose surface to drive around in for a little ways you might unbind the system if that is all it is. If it is in fact mechanically failed to the engaged position your problem now becomes whose fault is it. Good luck either way.

 

[jimithing]

She drove in 4W low on dry pavement for starters and turned the wheels sharply while trying to engage it into 4W low "To try to get it to do that hoppy thing that tells me it's engaged." He says those are 2 of the biggest no-no's. I have poured over the manual on line and can find nothing that says you should not do these things. I feel like I have no ammunition to work with.

Here's what the manual says about switching between 4H and 4L.

To shift from “H4” to “L4”, bring the vehicle to a complete stop with the brake pedal held down with your foot, shift the automatic transmission elector lever into “N” and push and turn the four−wheel drive control switch knob fully clockwise.

To shift from “L4” to “H4”, bring the vehicle to a complete stop with the brake pedal held down with your foot, shift the automatic transmission selector lever into “N” and turn the four−wheel drive control switch knob fully counterclockwise.

If the “4LO” (low speed four−wheel drive) indicator light continues to blink when you operate the four−wheel drive control switch knob to the “H4” or “L4” position, drive forward or backward in a short distance, then stop the vehicle completely, shift the automatic transmission selector lever securely into “N” and operate the switch knob again.

If the indicator continues to blink even if doing so, contact your Toyota dealer as soon as possible. There may be a trouble in the four−wheel drive system.

Driving on the pavement in 4Lo is not a big deal if the differential wasn't locked but nowhere in there does it say to turn the wheels sharply to engage the 4WD. IMO they're liable.

There have been some people that have been able to tap the actuator to get theirs to shift into Lo but I've never seen anyone need to do it to get out of Lo. That's not where most people get stuck though. I think I'd try cycling some more and see if it'll get unstuck. Hopefully they didn't lock the diff during the drive...

 

[boondoggle]

You should take some of their vehicles for a test drive and see if you can get theirs to do that 'hoppy' thing. :driving:

 

[Pagonut]

Update

All of these comments are extremely helpful! Thank you so much everyone! Hubby has just left the dealership and they have sent him home in the rental again "until this gets resolved". He spoke to customer service and they said they will "take care of us". Not sure yet what that means but we should find out over the next few days. I need to read the manual again about use of the diff lock when engaging in 4L and 4H as it seems more complex than I once thought. Between the 2 of us we have owned 10 4WD toyotas - either Tacomas or 4 Runners - 5 each - and have NEVER had an issue with 4WD. I will not take this lying down, believe me!

Will keep you posted on what happens.

 

[ChaosStarter]

I will not take this lying down, believe me!

That's what she said. :nerd:

 

[JB.]

Pagonut, it's extremely relevant wether the diff is locked or unlocked. I suspect locked and I strongly suggest you find out. You have a much stronger case if the diff is locked and won't release. I presume you know about the dash light icon that indicates the diff is locked.

 

[Pagonut]

Diff

Pagonut, it's extremely relevant wether the diff is locked or unlocked. I suspect locked and I strongly suggest you find out. You have a much stronger case if the diff is locked and won't release. I presume you know about the dash light icon that indicates the diff is locked.

I can say that when we initially got in the car to leave the dealership, the diff indicator was on (which it had not been when we got out of the car). The woman says she did not push it on. Later it was reported from service that the diff indicator on the dash was randomly flashing off and on at will. Any thoughts on that?

 

[ChaosStarter]

I can say that when we initially got in the car to leave the dealership, the diff indicator was on (which it had not been when we got out of the car). The woman says she did not push it on. Later it was reported from service that the diff indicator on the dash was randomly flashing off and on at will. Any thoughts on that?

It is unusual for that system to randomly malfunction unless it's activated (not saying it's not possible, just very unusual and unlikely). My personal guess is that they were trying to verify that the system works (we've had a few that didn't (because sales people are morons and didn't check it beforehand) and it burned the dealership) and then it got stuck.

It's a tough call if you look at it from both sides, but I do believe the dealership is at least responsible in some way.

 

[Gatafly]

Nothing to add about who is liable since everyone is correct in that it is the dealership. To get it to disengage they could put the 4runner on blocks and run it in forward and reverse a few times to take any tension off the drive train and then try shifting in and out a few times to see if it will disengage if they have not already tried this.

 

[Martinjmpr]

My recommendation is to make every effort you can to have the dealer resolve the problem. If you end up spending any money of your own, document EVERYTHING, including EVERY phone call, EVERY conversation with a mechanic or manager, etc. EVERYTHING! Try to get as much as you can in writing. IOW, if they say "we don't think we broke it, but we'll split the cost with you" GET IT IN WRITING!

Once you have that and you have your vehicle back, take them to small claims court for whatever you are out-of-pocket. You don't need a lawyer in small claims court, you simply present your evidence to the judge. Some small-claims courts will allow "hearsay" evidence and in most cases you can call witnesses (your own mechanic.)

From a purely legal standpoint, it may be better for you to pay out of pocket and then sue, rather than enter into some kind of agreement with the dealer to split the costs, because if the dealer is smart, they'll include some kind of waiver of liability that will prevent you from suing them.

Final note: $2k is a lot of money to you and me. To a dealer it's small potatoes. I can't imagine any reputable dealer wanting to go to war with a customer over $2k (especially since it's not really a $2k cost to them. They get parts at cost and their mechanics cost them the same whether they're working on your car or taking a smoke break.) Show them you won't back down and I'll bet they'll fix it at no cost to you.

 

[4Running Daily]

A blinking diff light means the diff had not engaged yet.

 

[Sungod]

I can say that when we initially got in the car to leave the dealership, the diff indicator was on (which it had not been when we got out of the car). The woman says she did not push it on. Later it was reported from service that the diff indicator on the dash was randomly flashing off and on at will. Any thoughts on that?

It doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't test out the locking diff if they were checking everything else out.

 

[aha2988]

It really doesnt make sense that someone would try to get the drive train to bind up causing the wheels to hop to prove the 4wd works?

what idot.. "oh okay i got the wheels to hop i guess that means the 4wd indicator light is right, hope nothings broken good luck everybody.." re****s man i swear!