Should we Drill?

Concerning oil supplies

  • Lift off shore drilling moratorium

    Votes: 35 35.0%
  • Keep off shore drilling banned

    Votes: 14 14.0%
  • Buy hybrids or ride bicycles

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • Do nothing & wait until new technology comes

    Votes: 4 4.0%
  • Make Al Gore King

    Votes: 4 4.0%
  • Gas prices don't affect me cuz I'm rich!

    Votes: 4 4.0%
  • Raise gas taxes to more rapidly wean us off fossil fuel

    Votes: 2 2.0%
  • Lift drilling moratorium, aggressively conserve, and quickly develop new technologies

    Votes: 31 31.0%
  • Raise gas taxes to promote conservation & use money to help the poor and do gov. stimulated research

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other - please explain

    Votes: 4 4.0%

  • Total voters
    100
SonRunner said:
Reputable would be an economist.

Why you would buy into any Republican's ideas on the economy at this point is beyond me.

Show me the logic of how drilling for oil is going to lower gas prices (which is what you want right?). We're certainly not going to remove our dependence on foreign oil by drilling domestically. That would require, you guessed it, abstaining from the use of oil as much as possible.

Seriously, are we crack addicts when it comes to oil?

-------------------------------------------------

Aug. 1 (Bloomberg) -- It's absurd to argue that ending the moratorium on drilling off parts of the U.S. coasts would quickly bring down the high price of gasoline.

This chimera is being touted by President George W. Bush and other Republican politicians, including the party's presumptive presidential nominee, Senator John McCain of Arizona, to deflect blame for what it's costing for a fill-up.

To get around the fact that it would be a decade or more before any oil would be likely to flow, a few partisan analysts have said that the cost of gasoline would fall right away. They argue that the prospect of additional oil supply in the future would lead oil companies to produce more oil immediately because they would expect prices for crude to be lower later on.

Well, wouldn't that depend on whether a producer had the capacity to pump more oil today, and whether it thought lifting the moratorium would add a significant amount of oil to future supply relative to future demand?

There are good reasons to question whether another 1 million or 2 million barrels of crude a day would make much difference in prices when world consumption is running at 85 million barrels a day.

About a fourth of all U.S. oil production is already coming from offshore wells, primarily in the central and western portions of the Gulf of Mexico that aren't covered by the moratorium.

In a May 2007 forecast, the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service, which oversees exploration and drilling on the outer continental shelf, said that oil production in the Gulf was likely to increase from 1.3 million barrels a day last year to about 2 million barrels by 2010.

Ignored Forecast

In other words, production was expected to rise by about 700,000 barrels a day over a three-year period. That would be a gain of about 14 percent over the 5.1 million barrels produced daily last year in the U.S.

Yet somehow that sort of forecast based on industry projections and announced discoveries had no discernable impact on world crude oil prices.

Why would anyone assume that opening other coastal areas -- which may or may not harbor large quantities of oil that might or might not be economic to produce sometime in the future -- will have an immediate impact on today's oil prices?

Nevertheless, the assertions continue: lift the moratorium and gasoline prices will fall. And since McCain's Democratic opponent, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, is opposed to ending the moratorium, he therefore is responsible for high gasoline prices.

Dry Holes

Drilling proponents point to an estimate from the Minerals Management Service that there are probably about 76 billion barrels of oil waiting to be discovered offshore.

The problem is that little of that oil -- perhaps about 18 billion barrels -- lies in areas subject to the moratorium. A third of the total is off the coast of Alaska, where drilling is extraordinarily difficult and expensive, and most of the rest is in the Gulf of Mexico where drilling is permitted.

Some 3.5 billion barrels in the Minerals Management Service estimate are off the Atlantic coast in the Baltimore Canyon, an ideal geologic formation in which to find oil. It runs from east of Cape Cod all the way to North Carolina.

Beginning in the late 1970s, huge tracts were opened for exploration and oil companies jumped at the chance to drill. About 35 wells were sunk off Cape Cod, New York and New Jersey at a cost, including purchases of the leases, of almost $3 billion.

The result? Nothing. Neither oil nor gas was found.

Giving Up

Another ideal formation, the Destin Dome, in the eastern Gulf Coast area off Pensacola, Florida, was another major disappointment. Exxon Mobil Corp. spent heavily to acquire leases and found no commercial quantities of oil or gas in what became known as ``Dusty Dome.''

Years later, natural gas was found in the Dome. Yet, as a result of political pressure generated by environmental concerns, oil companies were paid to give up their leases. The gas has never been produced.

At a July 15 press conference, Bush said that he had lifted an executive order that had restricted offshore drilling since the early 1980s. Now, he said, ``the only thing standing between the American people and these vast oil resources is action from the U.S. Congress.''

Fooling the Public

Republicans are hoping that the public, believing their foolish claims that drilling will lower gasoline prices, will put enough pressure on Democratic opponents during the August congressional recess that begins today to pass legislation to end the moratorium this fall.

Meanwhile, both Bush and congressional Republicans have refused to take a step that really could reduce gasoline prices. That is to release a portion of the light, low-sulfur crude in the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

In an earlier column I explained why that action might bring down prices in a way opening more environmentally fragile coastal waters to more drilling can't. Obviously Bush, McCain and their allies would prefer to mislead the American people and escape blame for effects of their past lack of action on the nation's energy problems.
Blah blah blah. And I could post things that are contrary to this. Please quote something other than the same party rhetoric & have some original thoughts please! :awais: I posted McCain's energy policy from his website. Did you want to respond in kind? Otherwise I fear this strictly partisan stuff (from either side) won't get us further along.
 
Actually I already posted Obama's proposed policies.

Take one point out of that article and try to debunk. You can't.

I'm not a partisan, I voted for McCain 8 years ago. However, I'll call BS when I see it. The "drill baby drill" mantra is BS. Thinking people know better.

You can allow yourself to be duped like the rest of the Republican sheeple but I refuse to buy into the BS of drilling.
 
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SonRunner said:
Actually I already posted Obama's proposed policies.

Take one point out of that article and try to debunk. You can't.

I'm not a partisan, I voted for McCain 8 years ago. However, I'll call BS when I see it. The "drill baby drill" mantra is BS. Thinking people know better.

You can allow yourself to be duped like the rest of the Republican sheeple but I refuse to buy into the BS of drilling.
Look, all I think we should do is: ALL THE ABOVE. No one thing will get us out of this. To not drill is plain silly.

Sorry, I missed Obama's energy policy - which post was it in?
 
SonRunner said:
But why? Which part is silly? What do you fear will happen if we don't drill? What will happen if we do drill?

The oil we get from drilling will probably not be huge, but they are saying we have at least 3% of world reserves (and maybe more). We consume 20% of the world's oil now, so this untapped reserve constitutes a potential of 15% of US usage - not a minute amount. And if we start doing a better job of conserving oil, it could mean an even bigger percentage.

Now when exactly it all comes on line is a matter of debate. And, if we are pursuing alternate energy sources, which may ramp up in 15-20 years, having that extra 15% in say 7-10 years would be mighty handy.

But part of this is also the perception. If other oil producers know we have put a lid on our remaining oil, they can gouge us accordingly. It's a simple matter of competition. Take the competition out of the equation, and prices go up.

The argument that we shouldn't drill, because it's not a HUGE amount, is a logical fallacy. So then we should therefore do nothing? Again, it must be "all of the above."

Not to drill means that option is gone, and if things don't work out perfectly for future alternate sources, then we're pretty much screwed - and 100% at the mercy of others. So I'd rather be 80% at their mercy than 100%.


BTW: where's that post on Obama's energy policy?
 
TeryT, I think a major flaw in your argument, and perhaps something you may not be aware of is: we already drill off shore. This isn't to stop all drilling here in the US, this is to open previously banned areas.

TeryT said:
The oil we get from drilling will probably not be huge, but they are saying we have at least 3% of world reserves (and maybe more). We consume 20% of the world's oil now, so this untapped reserve constitutes a potential of 15% of US usage - not a minute amount. And if we start doing a better job of conserving oil, it could mean an even bigger percentage.

World demand is around 85 million barrels today. Under optimal circumstances these new oil outposts would maybe net 2 million barrels to be sold on the world market per day. Drilling here is going to be a drop in the bucket. The middle-east just has more oil than us, nothing we can do about that. With their larger supply they dictate prices, not us. 2 million barrels isn't going to even make them blink.


TeryT said:
Now when exactly it all comes on line is a matter of debate. And, if we are pursuing alternate energy sources, which may ramp up in 15-20 years, having that extra 15% in say 7-10 years would be mighty handy.

Alternative energy sources are here. Nuclear, solar, wind. Again, 2 million barrels will have NO effect whatsoever on our energy situation.

TeryT said:
But part of this is also the perception. If other oil producers know we have put a lid on our remaining oil, they can gouge us accordingly. It's a simple matter of competition. Take the competition out of the equation, and prices go up.

Did you consider the other side to this? If we ramp up oil production and OPEC and Venezuela say "Fine, we'll just cut output to keep prices where they are". They do this CONSTANTLY, there is no reason to think this would change if we put out 2 million barrels, to their 80+ million barrels. Again, we have no weight in the oil market.

TeryT said:
The argument that we shouldn't drill, because it's not a HUGE amount, is a logical fallacy. So then we should therefore do nothing? Again, it must be "all of the above."

Actually, what's fallacious is to assume there aren't opportunity costs in drilling for oil domestically when obviously our efforts could be better spent on renewable energy furtherance. It's not "doing nothing" as you say, but rather, doing something else (which also happens to be more worthwhile).

TeryT said:
Not to drill means that option is gone, and if things don't work out perfectly for future alternate sources, then we're pretty much screwed - and 100% at the mercy of others. So I'd rather be 80% at their mercy than 100%.

Like I mentioned at the top, we already drill domestically. This is just to allow them to explore drilling in other areas, where there may or may not be the oil they believe is there. This isn't an all or nothing game. I'll play your doomsday scenario though when you explain to me how exactly we would be at the mercy of others any more than we are today?


TeryT said:
BTW: where's that post on Obama's energy policy?

I posted it on the page before this one:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/factsheet_energy_speech_080308.pdf



Bottom line: Opening up more drilling will do NOTHING to lower oil prices given how small of a player we are in the market. Secondly, the market responds to market forces. Notice how much a Prius goes for these days? Above sticker. Notice how gas prices went down recently because of decreased demand? You need to look at the big picture.
 

What a lot of people do not realize is that we in the USA actually have more energy reserves than Saudi Arabia. It is not always cost-effective to harvest all of it at the present time, but we need to be forward-thinking and have the potential to access these reserves if and when we need them! (Thinking into the future, who will have the most oil when the wells in the Middle East start sucking wind? Probably the USA, Russia, Canada & Mexico.)

We have ample supplies of coal - enough to last us almost 500 years; and we also have huge reserves of oil in tar sands, underneath shale and off our coastlines. While it may cost more to go and get it, keep in mind that world oil demand (and thus, prices) are going to go up, up and up in the near and far futre.

Other resources - biodiesel, wind, solar, ethanol, hydrogen, etc., etc. - should also be part of a comprehensive energy plan. Oil is not the "be all end all" for us, but right now is still the lifeblood of our economy. Keep in mind that even if some new liquid fuel were invented out of thin air, we still have all these millions of existing vehicles that run on gasoline and diesel fuel.

If the "market price" of oil were $140 a barrel and it cost us $180 a barrel to access/harvest our domestic oil (offshore, tar sand oil, deeper digging, ANWR, etc., etc.), remember that the money would remain in our economy instead of going overseas! Having fewer enemies - funded with our money - is always better for our national psyche.
:girl:

Oil field and refinery-related jobs are high-paying white collar and blue collar positions that would require hiring "real Americans" who would be spending much of their income here; rather than having continual cash transfers to the mullahs and oil sheiks.

Economic issues aside, just look at this from a national security perspective - which nobody is doing these days. As the world ecomomy demands more energy and the value of the US Dollar falls, buying "foreign oil" is only going to become more difficult for us. If the thought of $150 for a barrel of oil seems disconcerting, just think of how bad it is going to be for us if that payment is instead demanded in yen, francs, dinars, Euros or even pesos.
:mad:

We also need to ramp up our domestic refinery capacity. All the crude oil we can handle is useless, so long as we don't have the ability to refine it into gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, kerosene, etc., etc. Just look at what happened during the past hurricane when our refineries along the Gulf Coast had to shut down for a few days. Yikes!

Put aside the partisan bickering and b.s. environmental nonsense and get to work, Washington!!!!


~~ Edited for clarity. ~~
 
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Montana's Bakken Oil Field

While this is not a new field, the US Geological Survey recently said this field of highly recoverable light, sweet crude, has 25 times more oil than originally projected. This is something between 3-4 billions (with a "B"), and could rivel the reserves in Saudi Arabia!

USGS Report on Bakken Oil field

BTW Sonrunner - thanks for reposting Obama's energy policy. When I get some time I will respond more.
 
SonRunner said:
I think it's all moot at this point. Congress has since decided to let the moratorium on off shore drilling to expire.
Yes, they have somewhat bigger fish to fry - like keeping us out of a severe depression. It will be most telling to see if our politicians can come together effectively to overt this mess. :cry:
 
TeryT said:
Yes, they have somewhat bigger fish to fry - like keeping us out of a severe depression. It will be most telling to see if our politicians can come together effectively to overt this mess. :cry:

touche
 

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MAC4Runner said:
Don't get too excited........

Read Me

Yes, I've been watching this: "Places off limits areas within fifty miles of the coast line, where 80 percent of the oil and gas deposits are. This bill, if it becomes law, will place these energy rich areas off limits permanently."

With this shananigan and the one she's pulling now, she has gone to the top of my sh*t list. She's perhaps the most dangerous woman in (and to) America.
 
TeryT said:
I guess I just don't understand this point of view. Makes little logical sense to me, in the short or long term.

I think, big picture, this sums it up well:

Vision of the Left is Pleasing, but devoid of Reality

I've already gone into great length why you're wrong. You just didn't want to listen. :-)

You also said my Bloomberg article was partisan and then you post that non-sense.

The bottom line is just about every economist has come out AGAINST drilling off shore as it does nothing for us. Republicans who like to "think from the gut" think they know better however. Congrats on being duped by your party leadership. :P
 
Economists' Letter on Offshore Drilling

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi
House Minority Leader John Boehner

Dear Senators Reid and McConnell and Representatives Pelosi and Boehner,

As economists, we write out of concern that you are being pressured to lift the Congressional ban on most oil drilling off our coasts, despite the fact that this would do nothing in the short term and almost nothing in the long term to reduce gas prices. Simpler measures that don't threaten our environment would do much more.

The federal government's Energy Information Administration projects that this would have no impact on gas prices in the near-term since it will be close to a decade before the first oil could be extracted. The EIA projects production would reach 200,000 barrels a day at peak production. It describes this amount as too small to have any significant effect on oil prices, even when production is at its peak. [1]

If the US had raised auto fuel efficiency standards between 1985-2005 by a quarter of the amount it raised them annually from 1980-1985, instead of leaving them virtually unchanged, the result would roughly have been the equivalent of 3.3 million barrels of oil per day in new production,16 times the projected impact of offshore drilling. [2] It is reasonable to assume that modest increases in fuel efficiency in the future would have a similar effect. If we negotiated an agreement with Iran that led to the lifting of US sanctions, oil production in Iran could increase 1-2 million barrels a day. That would be 5-10 times the projected impact of drilling off our coasts.

U.S. oil companies are not doing all they can do boost production. In May, the Washington Post reported that Exxon had spent $8 billion buying back shares in the first quarter as a way to boost the value of the stock for shareholders. That far exceeded the company's $5.5 billion capital spending budget.[3] In 2006, Exxon spent $25 billion buying back its stock, again more than its capital spending budget. [4] The industry spent $52.4 billion on stock buybacks in 2006, nearly double the amount in 2005. [5]

It would be far better to pursue modest conservation and negotiations with Iran, having the effect of bringing 20-25 times as much oil on the market, rather than endanger tourism, fishing, and beaches on our coasts for a long-term effect on gas prices that we won't even notice.

Thank you for your consideration of our concerns.

Michael Perelman, Economics Dept., California State University, Chico
James Devine, Economics Dept., Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles
Hadi Salehi Esfahani, Economics Dept. University of Illinois, Urbana
Mark Weisbrot, Center for Economic and Policy Research, Washington
Rudy Fichtenbaum, Economics Dept., Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio
Michael Brun, Economics Dept., Illinois State University, Bloomington-Normal
Hank Leland, Research Analyst, SEIU, Washington
Edward S. Herman, Finance Department, Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania
Jeffrey Stewart, Economics Dept., University of Cincinnati
Laurence Shute, Economics Dept., California State Polytechnic University, Pomona

References:
[1] Annual Energy Outlook 2007 with Projections to 2030, Energy Information Administration, February 2007.
[2] Offshore Drilling and Energy Conservation: The Relative Impact on Gas Prices, Dean Baker and Nichole Szembrot, Center for Economic and Policy Research, June 2008.
[3] "Up $10.9 Billion, Exxon Worries About New Tax," Steven Mufson, Washington Post, May 2 2008.
[4] "Higher Oil Prices Help Exxon Again Set Record Profit, " Steven
Mufson, Washington Post, February 2, 2007.
[5] "Big Companies Put Record Sums Into Buybacks," Ian McDonald,. Wall Street Journal, June 12, 2006.
 
Ah Contraire!

Gee, here's one economist: ANWR drilling would Provide Quick Relief

and

Another Interesting thought

and

What the Gingrich "intern" brouhaha is about: A couple more economists for drilling

But even if we didn't see an immediate, large drop in prices, does this mean we shouldn't move forward? We don't know what the future will bring, so shouldn't we make some contingent plans now (again, "all the above")? Considering that major breakthroughs in research of cancer might not occur until 15 years from now, should we stop funding the research now, because it will only, potentially, produce future results? Pretty silly.

If we had moved on this issue in the early 1990's, we wouldn't be in this condition now. Right? This economist agrees: "Moroney says all things considered, offshore drilling is a sound, long-term economic strategy. "If we don't start now, that just postpones the delays since it will be eight or 10 years before production prospectively can occur." From here: Texas A&M Economist

So please don't tell me there are no economists out there that support drilling. It's kind of like the whole global warming aurgument when they say "all scientists agree," which they certainly don't (and many opposing view points are suppressed).
 
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Re: Ah Contraire!

TeryT said:
Gee, here's one economist: ANWR drilling would Provide Quick Relief

and

Another Interesting thought

and

What the Gingrich "intern" brouhaha is about: A couple more economists for drilling

But even if we didn't see an immediate, large drop in prices, does this mean we shouldn't move forward? We don't know what the future will bring, so shouldn't we make some contingent plans now (again, "all the above")? Considering that major breakthroughs in research of cancer might not occur until 15 years from now, should we stop funding the research now, because it will only, potentially, produce future results? Pretty silly.

If we had moved on this issue in the early 1990's, we wouldn't be in this condition now. Right? This economist agrees: "Moroney says all things considered, offshore drilling is a sound, long-term economic strategy. "If we don't start now, that just postpones the delays since it will be eight or 10 years before production prospectively can occur." From here: Texas A&M Economist

So please don't tell me there are no economists out there that support drilling. It's kind of like the whole global warming aurgument when they say "all scientists agree," which they certainly don't (and many opposing view points are suppressed).

Comparing finding a cure to cancer and the quest for more oil is interesting. First time I've heard that. I think you're analogy would be more in tune with developing more energy efficiency and renewable energy sources. Nobody is predicting the offset of peak oil by drilling off-shore of the United States!

I didn't tell you there weren't economists with opposing views? You're right, not all economists think the same. Just like some scientists still think global warming is debatable. However, most economists and scientists agree off shore drilling will do nothing to alleviate gas prices and global warming is very real, respectively.
 
Please excuse me as I wax philosophical

In management we say we're lucky to have 50% of the information to make an educated decision. And this is in areas we're supposed to have at least some control. When it comes to bigger picture things, like drilling, macro economics and global warming, the average person has pretty much zero control. So we have to rely on even more "distant" information. Before it gets to us, this information passes through a few hands. Sometimes pertinent information is spiked or influenced by interested associations, peer groups and the media, as well as political parties and the pressures thereof. Other times certain aspects, stories, etc. are strongly promoted over other items.

And having freedom of the press is a great thing, but it certainly doesn't mean the media doesn't throw their own biases and slants in there - media has consistently been shown to be overwhelmingly leftward leaning in regular polls and studies. (BTW: I know certain talk shows are biased right, because they say so. However, when I listen to many other shows they claim they are just reporting - yeah right!)

We can't be experts in everything and be every where, so we're at the mercy of all these "handlers" of information. And then, once we get this possibly filtered and dubious info, we process it according to our limited experience and inbred paradigms.

While I think I know something, I'm also open to the idea that much of it could be wrong, for reasons cited above. I guess we just do the best we can, but God help me if I get smug about it (which happens all too often)!

So we all have to ask ourselves the classic question: "Might we be deceived?" (Wise answer: "Well of course, that's the nature of deception - but I dont think so!") :D
 
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