Sliders - A couple questions...

[TonyB66]

Besides Savage, are there any other 3rd gen sliders that have four mounting legs per side? The more I look at these various offerings, I like that approach, along with the gussets...

After much reading about HREW and DOM, I found several instances or accounts where HREW was stronger than DOM seemingly because the steel itself used in the HREW process was a much higher US grade. Any other sliders besides 4XInnovations that use USA steel? If Savage, BAMF, Stubbs and White Knuckle do, I was able to find such on their websites...

 

[Lindenwood]

In these instances and accounts, through what processes did they conclude that their HREW was stronger than DOM?

Also, more generally, while I don't bash my rig around in rocksand was thus not terribly concerned about it, don't most slider companies test their sliders as dedigned?

Finally, I would bet 4xInnovations would sell you an extraset of legs if you asked, for not much money! I am super happy with my 4XIs.

 

[tx_shooter]

I have been running the Schrockworks sliders for three years now. I have banged them in the rocks and pivoted on trees with them. I have only dented them once when I came down on the slider right in the front bend. The weight of most of the vehicle came down on it into a rock outcropping out in Big Bend Ranch State Park. But nothing on my vehicle beyond the slider was damaged so the slider paid for itself immediately.

 

[TonyB66]

In these instances and accounts, through what processes did they conclude that their HREW was stronger than DOM?

Also, more generally, while I don't bash my rig around in rocksand was thus not terribly concerned about it, don't most slider companies test their sliders as dedigned?

Finally, I would bet 4xInnovations would sell you an extraset of legs if you asked, for not much money! I am super happy with my 4XIs.

I had already closed those windows, but there were at least a couple accounts in forums of detailed, controlled testing, that found Chinese DOM steel was inferior to US HREW. This is likely not surprising to many here, but then prompted the question which sliders use American made steel. As a selling point, 4xInnovations clearly notes that they do, but others might too, and just not note it possibly...

I'll likely send some emails or make some phone calls at some point.

 

[deves2]

Budbuilt

 

[trackntrail]

I'm installing 4xinnovations DOM sliders this weekend. So far the quality of the kit is really nice. Just order from them and get an extra let/mounting plate and gusset for each side.

 

[TonyB66]

I'm installing 4xinnovations DOM sliders this weekend. So far the quality of the kit is really nice. Just order from them and get an extra let/mounting plate and gusset for each side.

Someone above had mentioned that, and that does sound like a good idea. I did indeed send-out some emails to find-out who is using US-produced steel.

With the Savage sliders, the units ship all welded, which is a positive, to some at least. I imagine others will want the flexibility to determine the length of the legs though. I see less shop time as the only welding would be to the rig...

I just heard back from Jerry at BAMF, and they have multiple sources for steel, so not easy to know.

Someone above mentioned BudBuilt. I once saw their sliders on their website, but now I'm having a hard time. Their 3rd gen offerings:

4Runner 1996 - 2002 (3rd Gen)

EDIT/ADD: I heard further from Jerry at BAMF. I'd like to clarify, they source plate steel domestically, always. US DOM is pretty much non-existent. They will source such from India, and not China. He has been very responsive and helpful.

 

[deves2]

Budbuilt is a small family (bud and his son)owed business that produces top quality products, has been featured in many magazines and TV shows. give him a call and you will see what I mean. the down side is his website. he is a fabricator not a web site builder. He can and will build you anything you want.

 

[TonyB66]

Updated my post just above with further feedback from Jerry at BAMF...

Just had a good and long talk with Roy at Savage. The guy avails himself like so few...

He uses US steel only, and was super adamant about doing so. His experiences with other producers, notably Chinese steel, not good, mostly due to inconsistency. He says that US steel is booming again, as we hear in the news. It is more expensive, but simply the best, in his opinion, and it seems most agree. When his website is updated, he will make it a point to emphasize that he uses US steel, only.

His sliders are not currently available and he's actually working on a huge revision of them, something that will look quite different apparently. The aim is to have them done and available by Black Friday.

They will be a temporary bolt-on design allowing the customer to carefully position the sliders exactly where they want, then drive it to the welder of choice. Wall thickness, not the usual 0.120" or even 0.134" (ShrockWorks), but 0.1875" - 3/16"! If I understood correctly, that's for the legs and outer bar. The legs will go from four to three, but they will be massive in size. He's pretty juiced about these and admits that while they will be the heftiest on the market, appearance-wise, they will be different. A bit of a risk as for many of us, aesthetics is indeed a factor....

Since I have a front and rear bumper, with carrier that he's currently working-up for me, he knows to add this into the mix. Hoping to see what these sliders will look like soon...

 

[MStudt]

Marlin Crawler did a great side by side test of DOM vs HREW almost a decade ago. This article is a good rear, and will really help clear up many questions around these materials.

Link

If it's not a suspension related item or a roll cage I would go with HREW. The only disadvantage to HREW is having to bend it a certain way to prevent it from splitting at the seam.

 

[TonyB66]

Mike, thank you. I have some more reading to do...

I heard back from Stubbs, with a thoughtful reply from Richard. US steel as well. It has gone-up in price a fair amount, he notes, so he's doing his best to buy in bulk to lower the price. Because of this they are only producing the HD/SKO models at this time. He also provided a copy/paste for me that he provided a few months back regarding the tubing they use:

Hello,

We use all US made 1020 CREW tubing. We could use/find India made 1020 DOM for a similar price but choose to use the US made material. We can also use US made 1026 DOM but that material is very expensive, and actually not that easy to acquire (sliders using true US made 1026 DOM would have to be priced North of $450 based upon current pricing THIS PRICING IS NOT CURRENT 10/9/2018). To my knowledge anyone selling sliders in a price range such as ours but are using DOM are using the aforementioned 1020 foreign made DOM. Nothing really wrong with that but I choose to use the US made products.

A lot of people don't really know this but there are only really three types of tubing, and they are:

1. HREW
2. CREW
3. Seamless

Now the fourth tubing is not a "type" but rather a process, and that one is DOM (DOM is NOT a seamless tube-true seamless is truly meant for nuclear or other power generation purposes-steam piping etc, and its makes 1026 look CHEAP!-but also would have no advantage for rock sliders). It is made by taking any number of CREW tubes (determined by carbon content- common 1018, 1020, UNCOMMON 1026), and drawing them over a mandrel thus making the tube perfect in its dimensions (primarily for hydraulic cylinders). It does also make the tubing stronger by work hardening it but the bigger issue is the carbon content meaning the last two digits 18,20,26 are what matters the most. The only times we go out of our way to build with US made 1026 is suspension links, and thats mostly due to using heavy wall .250", and above. If I could find 1026 CREW for that purpose I'd use it instead. It should be noted that I rolled end over end several times in Moab in a 1020 CREW made roll cage, and it barely had a small dent in one place where all the weight came down at once in a spot about the size of a quarter!

I have no problems with CREW or DOM but would not use HREW (most HREW is 1010) for anything related to 4x4 use. 1026 DOM is a superior tube but it is very, very expensive, and amazingly enough not that easy to find. For me the 1020 CREW is a balance between cost & performance, and without question I always will choose US steel over anything else.

Hope this helps,

Richard
++++++

Very interesting. Most options are HREW or DOM...

From all that I have heard thus far, even prior to starting this thread, and more so now, I will place a higher emphasis on having US steel over the process employed on it.

 

[MStudt]

Very interesting. Most options are HREW or DOM...

From all that I have heard thus far, even prior to starting this thread, and more so now, I will place a higher emphasis on having US steel over the process employed on it.

DOM is a couple steps more advanced than CREW. Both follow the same process to a certain point. Strengths are comparable, but tolerances are not.

Keep in mind that the only reason you're paying so much for DOM is due to the tariffs. The US made tubing is carrying a higher price since mills are backed up, and they know people will pay it. I buy a truck load of steel at least once a month, and have dealt with issue are issue since the tariffs hit.

Good news is that pricing has stabilized. That being said, I don't see prices coming the 50% or so they went up.

 

[Snowden]

Savage

Hi [MENTION=175921]TonyB66[/MENTION] -- FWIW, my real world experience. I have Roy's "Made from 1 3/4" X .120 round HREW tubing" variety. I have danced on them on Sierra granite boulders and, while they have indeed saved my rocker panels, they have sustained some abuse. One small section about 3" long, where I came down very hard on it last year, the slider dented slightly. And in two other locations the metal was ground/gashed slightly. That was with the full weight of the rig coming down pretty hard, as I recall the moments, and powering over the top as it were.

Good news to note is that the support arms did not bend. The sliders are still as straight as when they were welded in place.

I am very happy with the Savage product and for all I know this would have been the same with any of the other offerings or potentially worse. I don't know. But as far as I am concerned they have done their job and paid for themselves. I will be very interested to see Roy's newly engineered version you mention.

 

[octanejunkie]

Are the local malls near you that rough that 3 leg sliders won't cut it or are you feeding those kids by the hour? :lmao:

 

[theesotericone]

From all that I have heard thus far, even prior to starting this thread, and more so now, I will place a higher emphasis on having US steel over the process employed on it.

Stubbs uses US CREW steel. He makes bomber sliders. It's what I run and would recommend them to anyone. I know there's a lot of options on the market but Stubbs are fully welded, have 4 supports, and are reasonably priced.

Give Richard a call and talk to him for five minutes. After you do I bet you go Stubbs.

 

[TonyB66]

Hi [MENTION=175921]TonyB66[/MENTION] -- FWIW, my real world experience. I have Roy's "Made from 1 3/4" X .120 round HREW tubing" variety. I have danced on them on Sierra granite boulders and, while they have indeed saved my rocker panels, they have sustained some abuse. One small section about 3" long, where I came down very hard on it last year, the slider dented slightly. And in two other locations the metal was ground/gashed slightly. That was with the full weight of the rig coming down pretty hard, as I recall the moments, and powering over the top as it were.

Good news to note is that the support arms did not bend. The sliders are still as straight as when they were welded in place.

I am very happy with the Savage product and for all I know this would have been the same with any of the other offerings or potentially worse. I don't know. But as far as I am concerned they have done their job and paid for themselves. I will be very interested to see Roy's newly engineered version you mention.

Ash, thanks for chiming-in. I imagine all or at least most of these slider options are plenty adequate for their intended use. I think it's 4xInnovation who has the video of dropping their mounted sliders on a boulder. All very impressive, in my opinion...

I'm also looking at these for on-road safety too. I remember a buddy who was t-boned and it was obvious that the sliders likely saved his life. Right or wrong, that is one of the reasons I find the four legs appealing. There are not a lot of differences in sliders, that being one distinction though...

I see that Mike just posted too! Haven't see you around in quite a while. I haven't been to a mall in years. I hate those places. Thankfully the movie theatre here is not in a mall... I buy almost everything on Amazon. In actual stores, I think just The Home Depot.

Back to these sliders, I'm really looking-forward to see what Roy came-up with. He's not sure how they will be received from an aesthetic standpoint, but functionally, they would seem to be pretty desirable. He received and incorporated a lot of input, even on such matters as little ones feet slipping through... It's obvious that he loves his work.

Also, Richard at Stubbs sent me a couple emails, following-up on his earlier responses, the latest one before I had a chance to reply. One can tell that he too is passionate about what he produces and his emphasis on quality. This inquiry has led me to believe that US CREW steel is what I'd ideally want, and that's Stubbs. Not sure if Roy uses CREW, but I'll find-out soon enough. Being that I have an open multi-order with Roy at Savage, that is a factor for me to consider too.

I see that Matt just replied! And, mentioning Richard at Stubbs too. Thanks Matt. Yes, his sliders have 4 legs/supports. Figured that given your proximity to Savage you might have gone with his sliders. I believe you have his rear bumper, but I might be mistaken...

I appreciate all of the feedback.

 

[theesotericone]

I see that Matt just replied! And, mentioning Richard at STubbs too. Thanks Matt. Yes, his sliders have 4 legs/supports. Figured that given your proximity to Savage you might have gone with his sliders. I believe you have his rear bumper, but I might be mistaken..

I'm just as close to Stubbs as I am to Savage. lol

I've talked to both of those guys numerous times about things. I most recently talked to Roy last week about some plans he's got in the works. Both are great guys that love what they do. You can't go wrong with either of those two.

I went with Stubbs for my sliders because they are proven to take a pounding. And I have pounded the shit out of them. No broken welds, one small dent that came from the Dusy and a slightly bent drivers slider from getting t-boned. I'm not sure if you caught that are not so I'll link it here. That's right. Stubbs sliders saved my rig. Literally.

Start reading at post #48:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/242884-theesotericones-trails-bs-thread-4.html#post2815240

 

[TonyB66]

I'm just as close to Stubbs as I am to Savage. lol

I've talked to both of those guys numerous times about things. I most recently talked to Roy last week about some plans he's got in the works. Both are great guys that love what they do. You can't go wrong with either of those two.

I went with Stubbs for my sliders because they are proven to take a pounding. And I have pounded the shit out of them. No broken welds, one small dent that came from the Dusy and a slightly bent drivers slider from getting t-boned. I'm not sure if you caught that are not so I'll link it here. That's right. Stubbs sliders saved my rig. Literally.

Start reading at post #48:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/242884-theesotericones-trails-bs-thread-4.html#post2815240

Matt, thanks for sharing that experience you had about a year ago! That was before I purchased my 3rd gen, so that's probably why I was not aware. There is an on-road consideration for for sliders for sure...

Damn, I didn't realize Stubbs is in CA. I had too many windows open and likely confused him with someone out-of-state. Six hours away though... Less cost on shipping, but CA sales tax.

 

[theesotericone]

Matt, thanks for sharing that experience you had about a year ago! That was before I purchased my 3rd gen, so that's probably why I was not aware. There is an on-road consideration for for sliders for sure...

Damn, I didn't realize Stubbs is in CA. I had too many windows open and likely confused him with someone out-of-state. Six hours away though... Less cost on shipping, but CA sales tax.

Mine where $360 delivered to my door.

 

[TonyB66]

Mine where $360 delivered to my door.

You have the HD-SKO model?

https://www.stubbswelding.com/page14.html

Damn good price to your doorstep.